Anger After 900 Computer Jobs Axed

[Fudge]

Of course.

The question is about how conflicts are resolved once people have organised themselves rather than process and legitimacy of organisation.

In the UK (and France, Greece and their ilk), there seems to be a mutually assured, self destructive approach to conflict resolution by both sides.

In more mature and successful nations like Germany, there seems to be a collaborative approach which attempts to make both sides no worse off post conflict than they were pre conflict in the context of the economic reality at the time.

In Germany there is a genuine partnership between employers and unions. Which is the way it should be.

But as we are seeing in this country as soon as the bad economic times hit employers ditch the partnership approach and use their advantage to attack

employees jobs, pay and pensions. It has got very nasty very quickly.

[LuckyOne]

That might come as a surprise to HP shareholders

My link

But HP is one of the world's most 'ethical companies

http://h30507.www3.hp.com/t5/CSR-in-Europe-Middle-East-and/2009-World-s-Most-Ethical-Companies/ba-p/52279

Really you could not make this sh*t up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard

Pity the poor old EDS employees who first saw their company run into the ground by that lunatic Dick Brown and then had the misfortune to be taken over by this crock of crap.

Neither corporations nor employees are ethical.

Both corporations and employees try to promote themselves as being selfless and acting in the public good in a vain attempt to fool everyone into believing that they are acting for anything different than their own best interests.

Mature and successful economies have evolved well beyond these purile and obvious strategies from both sides of the labour / capital divide.

[stormymonday_2011]

Workers have more power organised collectively than they have individually.

Bosses organise collectively, what is the CBI but a bosses union?

Actually demographics means that the workers day in the sun is likely to return with a vengeance after 2020 which is why the current government is desperate to stop people retiring early. And it is not just in the west where the plentiful supply of cheap labour will disappear. Who know company might actually have to start innovating again as well as investing in automation and new technology.

Edited July 5, 2010 by realcrookswearsuits

[stormymonday_2011]

In Germany there is a genuine partnership between employers and unions. Which is the way it should be.

But as we are seeing in this country as soon as the bad economic times hit employers ditch the partnership approach and use their advantage to attack

employees jobs, pay and pensions. It has got very nasty very quickly.

No surprise that they constantly beat us at football as our system seems to rely largely on hype and bullsh*t

[Fudge]

So what are you to do then ? I don't think fighting to stay at a place where you are not wanted makes much sense. And of course you have a choice. You have a choice in what work you do.

They are not fighting to stay at a place where you are not wanted.

You are fighting to defend your job, pay and conditions. You can choose to work some place else and do different types of work but wherever you

go, there you are.

[LuckyOne]

In Germany there is a genuine partnership between employers and unions. Which is the way it should be.

But as we are seeing in this country as soon as the bad economic times hit employers ditch the partnership approach and use their advantage to attack

employees jobs, pay and pensions. It has got very nasty very quickly.

Your initial assertation about the most constructive relationship between capital and labour is correct.

Your interpretation of the relationship between the two in the UK is complete nonsense.

In the good times, both sides felt that the other was taking advantage.

In the bad times, capital can extract revenge.

If the good times ever return, labour will be able to extract revenge.

The pursuit of revenge is the fundamental flaw in the behaviour of both sides in the UK.

[Fudge]

Your initial assertation about the most constructive relationship between capital and labour is correct.

Your interpretation of the relationship between the two in the UK is complete nonsense.

In the good times, both sides felt that the other was taking advantage.

In the bad times, capital can extract revenge.

If the good times ever return, labour will be able to extract revenge.

The pursuit of revenge is the fundamental flaw in the behaviour of both sides in the UK.

I would not say its revenge but the relationship between capital and labour is at odds with each other.

The less pay and conditions capital conceeds to labour the bigger the profits. The more pay and better conditions won by labour the smaller the profits for capital.

[ccc]

You are fighting to defend your job, pay and conditions.

Why would you want to do this ? As you yourself have stated - people have to work - they have no choice. So why would you want to defend this ?

****** them. Take advantage of them as much as they take advantage of you. Maybe not the most pleasant situation but it is reality.

[Fudge]

Why would you want to do this ? As you yourself have stated - people have to work - they have no choice. So why would you want to defend this ?

****** them. Take advantage of them as much as they take advantage of you. Maybe not the most pleasant situation but it is reality.

Because if you have to work you want to be adequately compensated for the work you do, you want to keep the majority of the wealth you are creating.

[ccc]

Because if you have to work you want to be adequately compensated for the work you do, you want to keep the majority of the wealth you are creating.

And what has the above got to do with fighting for your job ? It is not your job and never will be. Go to a different job where you will be compensated better for the work you have to do.

[LuckyOne]

I would not say its revenge but the relationship between capital and labour is at odds with each other.

The less pay and conditions capital conceeds to labour the bigger the profits. The more pay and better conditions won by labour the smaller the profits for capital.

A big problem in the UK is the unsustainable relationship between the cost of housing relative to both the incomes for the providers of labour and the returns available on capital.

High shelter costs relative to available returns for the providers of the two main, necessary ingredients for economic success result in more conflict than normal.

Once again, the Germans have it sussed with their relatively low costs of shelter.

[LuckyOne]

Because if you have to work you want to be adequately compensated for the work you do, you want to keep the majority of the wealth you are creating.

The owners of capital and the providers of labour will always have different opinions about the relative contribution of each side towards wealth creation.

The resolution of this conflict will ultimately result from rational negotiation and will never result from threats and aggression by either side.

[wonderpup]

I would not say its revenge but the relationship between capital and labour is at odds with each other.

The less pay and conditions capital conceeds to labour the bigger the profits. The more pay and better conditions won by labour the smaller the profits for capital.

But the profits are generated by sales to labour- so the apparent dichotomy is something of an illusion. The more successful capital is at capturing the profits, the more it destroys demand for it's own output.

A more sophisticated society would recognise this symbiosis and share the profits more equitably, as some of the scandinavian societies seem to have worked out.

[_w_]

It's natural that companies with unionised staff should be less competitive and fail. Shame for the people involved (but whoever heard of IT staff so lame that they needed union representation). Good for the economy and the fight against communism .

I stumbled upon this shortest history of capitalism today (15 pages). Why do you think we had to bear with 5 year old little commies in the factories when unions were forbidden by the state? Did TPTB back then change things out of the goodness of their hearts?

http://www.selfed.org.uk/docs/units/2001/pdfs/01.pdf

[needsleep]

Why would a worker lower themself to this ?

Protest and get all angry about a company that doesn't even want you ?

Because when they let you go, you ensure they let you go on the best possible financial terms for you. You can either let the company get away with its minimal legal obligation (i.e. £300 for every year you worked there) or you can be part of a collective process that ensures that a company like HP (which makes $8bn profit a quarter) gives you a fair payout. It's quite simple.

[LuckyOne]

But the profits are generated by sales to labour- so the apparent dichotomy is something of an illusion. The more successful capital is at capturing the profits, the more it destroys demand for it's own output.

A more sophisticated society would recognise this symbiosis and share the profits more equitably, as some of the scandinavian societies seem to have worked out.

Did the Swedes not have a massive collapse in the recent past?

From what I recall, their banking system fell apart and they had to re-examine their high tax regime and large welfare system.

Again, from memory, I thought that they shrunk the size of the state relative to the private sector, restructured their banking system and substantially reduced tax rates even in the face of a severe recession.

We may well have to learn the same lessons as Sweden before we can become Germany.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

These might not be truly private sector jobs, the EDS wing of HP is largely involved in government IT systems.  You know,  those massive, over bureaucratic systems that are obsolete long before they have passed out of the design stage.

This is probably a private sector impact of a public sector budget cut, there will be many more before this is over.

Yes, in Government terms EDS is like a disease.  It infects all parts of the body, causing the victim to start to feel hungry, consuming vast quantities food/cash and thereby getting heavily bloated, until finally it pops.

[aa3]

I rarely agree with Unite. But they did raise a profound question that some on this forum have been asking as well. Can the private sector really drive the economic recovery including the creation of very large numbers of good paying jobs?

It seems great corporations like HP do not need so many workers today as in days gone by.

[200p]

A big problem in the UK is the unsustainable relationship between the cost of housing relative to both the incomes for the providers of labour and the returns available on capital.

High shelter costs relative to available returns for the providers of the two main, necessary ingredients for economic success result in more conflict than normal.

Once again, the Germans have it sussed with their relatively low costs of shelter.

Good post. Expensive houses are a dead weight around the UK economy's neck.

[Snugglybear]

I rarely agree with Unite. But they did raise a profound question that some on this forum have been asking as well. Can the private sector really drive the economic recovery including the creation of very large numbers of good paying jobs?

Well, the membership of the Treasure Select Committee should be confirmed this week, and one of the first things the committee is likely to do is ask Alan Budd and the OBR exactly where they believe the 2 million private sector jobs in the next five years featured in their forecast will be created and on what evidence they base that belief.

I for one can hardly wait for that hearing. It will be very interesting indeed.

[Angela]

No. Believe me HP ARE a bunch of c*nts, they do not have a clue about managing software projects (just like Fujitsu another hardware company that pretends to be an integrated IT supplier) and in my experience some of their hardware has proved less than reliable over the years

You certainly know what you are talking about.

HP send it's staff regular emails boasting how many billion profit they have made each quarter. Next breath redundancy emails. Times were companies were satisfied with millions not billions.

[OnlyMe]

But the profits are generated by sales to labour- so the apparent dichotomy is something of an illusion. The more successful capital is at capturing the profits, the more it destroys demand for it's own output.

A more sophisticated society would recognise this symbiosis and share the profits more equitably, as some of the scandinavian societies seem to have worked out.

Yes, too skewed a distribution is an indicator of consumer collapse - exactly the same situation now in this respect as the 30's. Or you have to have exceptional exports.

But luckyone is also right about the costs part (largely housing), same argument for cost of commercial property - too high and you don;t even have the businesses. I suspect established businesses like it this way in the same way they like regulation - both are a blocker to competition.

Edited July 6, 2010 by OnlyMe

[needsleep]

You certainly know what you are talking about.

HP send it's staff regular emails boasting how many billion profit they have made each quarter. Next breath redundancy emails. Times were companies were satisfied with millions not billions.

If HP is anything like other IT companies they will be shipping work to India and China. Fundamental problem with that is all the knowledge is shipped out there too. And there is a massive churn in staff in those places, particularly India. The knowledge then ends up with staff at companies like Tata, Infosys and Satyam. It won't be long before the big Indian IT companies stop being staisfied with the crumbs that the likes of IBM etc... throw from the table. They'll be going for big UK government IT contracts in their own right. And why should we care - swapping IBM for Tata is just swapping one foreign company for another and most of the work is done abroad anyway.

[stuckmojo]

Yes, in Government terms EDS is like a disease.  It infects all parts of the body, causing the victim to start to feel hungry, consuming vast quantities food/cash and thereby getting heavily bloated, until finally it pops.

I could not agree more. As an EDS ex-employee, I've seen a fair share of shit during my time there. Mostly incredibly poor management and consistent fiddling with reporting figures to their clients. I believe HP sort-of had to take on the badly run EDS accounts as part of the deal. I bet they won't hang on to many of these contracts either.

[Snugglybear]

I could not agree more. As an EDS ex-employee, I've seen a fair share of shit during my time there. Mostly incredibly poor management and consistent fiddling with reporting figures to their clients.

But, but, but... I thought the private sector was so much better at... ooh, everything!