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'cause And Effect Economics'

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The biggest problem with the left wingers here and in society is that they don't understand real cause and effect economics-

- They believe that we can continue spending money we dont have.

- They believe that you can solve a debt problem with more debt..

- They believe that QE is as good as money created from productive utility.

- They ignore the fact that spending money we dont have merely pushes the problem from the present into the future.

- They believe that spending to increase growth is good, ignoring the fact that the debt created in doing so would be larger than the extra GDP growth created, again pushing the innevitable problem into the future.

- They believe that the public sector is a productive part of the economy despite having no 'profit and loss' mechanism to make it so.

- They believe that a pound spent by the government is as productive as a pound spent by a private business despite not having to contend with any 'creative destruction' forces that face businesses every day.

Essentially there is either a head in the sand mentality where they know it is wrong to spend but want to do it to help their own self interests or they simply believe the c*** economic theories of Gordon Brown, Krugman et al.

I hope we return to real common sense economics soon.

Thoughts...

Edited by ringledman

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Guest Noodle

The biggest problem with the left wingers here and in society is that they don't understand real cause and effect economics-

- They believe that we can continue spending money we dont have.

- They believe that you can solve a debt problem with more debt..

- They ignore the fact that spending money we dont have merely pushes the problem from the present into the future.

- They believe that spending to increase growth is good, ignoring the fact that the debt created in doing so would be larger than the extra GDP growth created, again pushing the innevitable problem into the future.

- They believe that the public sector is a productive part of the economy despite having no 'profit and loss' mechanism to make it so.

- They believe that a pound spent by the government is as productive as a pound spent by a private business despite not having to contend with any 'creative destruction' forces that face businesses every day.

Essentially there is either a head in the sand mentality where they know it is wrong to spend but want to do it to help their own self interests or they simply believe the c*** economic theories of Gordon Brown, Krugman et al.

I hope we return to real common sense economics soon.

Thoughts...

. . . and no trade commissioner has the balls to tackle the real issue of product dumping and protectionism of the East.

Until you say to the East enough is enough, we're going to impose exactly the same import tariffs you impose on us, cheap cack will continue to flow into the West with money of increasingly dubious value flowing to the East. With all the benefits of the high unemployment, loss of skills and production capacity it brings to you.

But at least you can buy a polyester shirt for three quid. :)

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That's because they're all on the payroll, the core of the SWP in my area are all on benefits for example, little wonder they're so against "Tory cuts".

An entrenched ideological position coupled with a VI is a lethal combination, there's no reasoning with these people.

Edited by Chef

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The BIGGEST problem is GW Bush and the so called 'fiscal conservatives' ie Dick Cheney "deficits dont matter' are no better. Todays left/right are two sides of the same coin. You can have your wealth devalued by one, or inflated away by the other, its your choice.

We hope Cameron and Cable see that this system cant be sustained any longer, but it remains to be seen.

First thing that i would do is end this GDP worship - its a measure primarily of spending, not growth, and therefore whenever the BBC report it as such, they are being duplicitous. Put a greater emphasis on productivity and output, not consumption or demand bought foward/borrowed.

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Guest Noodle

The BIGGEST problem is GW Bush and the so called 'fiscal conservatives' ie Dick Cheney "deficits dont matter' are no better. Todays left/right are two sides of the same coin. You can have your wealth devalued by one, or inflated away by the other, its your choice.

We hope Cameron and Cable see that this system cant be sustained any longer, but it remains to be seen.

First thing that i would do is end this GDP worship - its a measure primarily of spending, not growth, and therefore whenever the BBC report it as such, they are being duplicitous. Put a greater emphasis on productivity and output, not consumption or demand bought foward/borrowed.

The biggest problem is outlined in Post#2.

Agreed about the GDP nonsense.

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Leftism works like this: if a statement feels good it must be true.

Its always the fault of rich people

Everyone should have access to [food/shelter/health care]

Were destroying the planet and rich people are to blame

Lets spend lots of money on nice shiney things

We can grow the economy by spending lots of money.

edit> Its like being a 12 year old kid and wanting to eat loads of fizzy drink pizza and chocolate but your evil capitalist parents won't let you!

Edited by domo

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The BIGGEST problem is GW Bush and the so called 'fiscal conservatives' ie Dick Cheney "deficits dont matter' are no better. Todays left/right are two sides of the same coin. You can have your wealth devalued by one, or inflated away by the other, its your choice.

We hope Cameron and Cable see that this system cant be sustained any longer, but it remains to be seen.

First thing that i would do is end this GDP worship - its a measure primarily of spending, not growth, and therefore whenever the BBC report it as such, they are being duplicitous. Put a greater emphasis on productivity and output, not consumption or demand bought foward/borrowed.

I accept your point and agree the 'far right' of GB & Greenspan were an economic disaster in their spending; surpassed only by Bernankee and Obama in stupidity.

Nonetheless there does seem to be the belief by the left in the Labour party of how 'nasty' the tories are to cut without any acceptance or understanding of the problems every citizen in the UK will face if we don't cut spending money we dont have.

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Nonetheless there does seem to be the belief by the left in the Labour party of how 'nasty' the tories are to cut without any acceptance or understanding of the problems every citizen in the UK will face if we don't cut spending money we dont have.

The trouble with liebour is their inability to grasp that it isnt just the period 2007-2010 that is the problem. 'Private' debts ( thanks to Gordon, now effectively national debts) between 2001-2007 were similarly unsustainable. Borrowing for public sector spending didnt need to be excessive back then due to them being able to cream of a couple of percent of the c.15% per annum growth in the money supply in that period, thus negating a need for double digit public deficits. Its not just about getting public borrowing down to acceptable levels, but getting public sector spending down to a level which doesnt require having massive private sector debts incurred to function.

I agree with the 'sentiment' - it just remains to be seen if the tories are just paying lip service to this or whether they actually will be prudent/fiscally conservative - which id imagine would require a lot of debt repudiation, and taking banks liabilities away from the taxpayer - of which ive seen not a word.

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The biggest problem with people on HPC is they think the state of the economy has something to do with the socialist or conservative governments.

It hasn't, it is entirely to do with house prices and the amount of money they suck out of the economy.

The appearance that one side of politics, be it left or right, has handled the economy better is an urban myth.

It is mostly luck as to who happens to take over at which point in the economic cycle.

Generally after a period where house prices have pushed people into poverty the socialists take over.

Normally they would give the peasants rights, add laws to protect renters, build social housing etc.

That suppresses house prices so life becomes bearable again.

Then the tories tell everyone they can become rich through land ownership, take over, and prices rocket again.

The catch was this time we had a double-bubble in house prices, after the tories used north sea oil to allow them to devalue the £ and devalue away everyones debts. This stopped house prices falling properly.

When Labour took over they just ran with tory policies, seeing that house prices were rising. At the start all looked great but by the end they were having to pay out huge sums to stop the peasants revolting due to house prices making life unbearable.

No matter how much they gave the peasants, they can't make life bearable as whatever they gave them flowed straight into landowners pockets.

The unions demanding pay rises to match REAL inflation, the peasants living on their handouts... these are merely reactions to the fact that high house prices and rents make life unbearable.

Edited by TaxAbuserOfTheWeek

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Thoughts...

Not enough of them are left footed, which leads to shocking service to the strikers..

The trouble with right wingers is they are completely blind to the fact that most of them are merely rent seekers and privelage exploiters. You get the rare exception, but mostly they rely on a surplus of labour, intellectual property law, planning law or existing wealth in order to extract overblown profits from their investments.

The public sector generates lots of wealth, you're wrong on that particular point.

Edited by dazednconfused

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The BIGGEST problem is GW Bush and the so called 'fiscal conservatives' ie Dick Cheney "deficits dont matter' are no better. Todays left/right are two sides of the same coin. You can have your wealth devalued by one, or inflated away by the other, its your choice.

thats because the public deficit is ultimately the source of all private sector profits and has been for a long time. Take it away and there is not going to be any profitability left in the private sector without turning westerns back into actual property-less slaves - i.e. wind the clock back a couple of centuries or more.

that is the reality that all parties are desperate to cover up, because we haven't got a plan B for what you do when profits cannot be obtained from somewhere.

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I must have missed all the references to economic studies in your post.

Realyl easy logic.

if you force someone to give you stuff it destroys wealth.

if you then make something with what you have stolen, it will be less than if the origianl guy had kept it, because of the cost of transfer, if nowt else.

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I think the biggest problem is illustrated by the fact that the left continually talks of cutting spending in terms of taking £xxxBn "out of the economy"

Most politicians of whatever stripe honestly believe that government "investment" (Ha!) can increase growth, and that govt needs to "know where the growth will come from". Nobody knows that, they are deluding themselves if they think they will be able to guess it accurately.

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I think the biggest problem is illustrated by the fact that the left continually talks of cutting spending in terms of taking £xxxBn "out of the economy"

Most politicians of whatever stripe honestly believe that government "investment" (Ha!) can increase growth, and that govt needs to "know where the growth will come from". Nobody knows that, they are deluding themselves if they think they will be able to guess it accurately.

+ 1

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. . . and no trade commissioner has the balls to tackle the real issue of product dumping and protectionism of the East.

Until you say to the East enough is enough, we're going to impose exactly the same import tariffs you impose on us, cheap cack will continue to flow into the West with money of increasingly dubious value flowing to the East. With all the benefits of the high unemployment, loss of skills and production capacity it brings to you.

But at least you can buy a polyester shirt for three quid. :)

Practice: Many rich countries have trade surpluses. And many poor countries have trade deficits. Theory: Since Adam Smith and David Ricardo.

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The biggest problem with the left wingers here and in society is that they don't understand real cause and effect economics-

- They believe that we can continue spending money we dont have.

- They believe that you can solve a debt problem with more debt..

- They believe that QE is as good as money created from productive utility.

- They ignore the fact that spending money we dont have merely pushes the problem from the present into the future.

- They believe that spending to increase growth is good, ignoring the fact that the debt created in doing so would be larger than the extra GDP growth created, again pushing the innevitable problem into the future.

- They believe that the public sector is a productive part of the economy despite having no 'profit and loss' mechanism to make it so.

- They believe that a pound spent by the government is as productive as a pound spent by a private business despite not having to contend with any 'creative destruction' forces that face businesses every day.

Essentially there is either a head in the sand mentality where they know it is wrong to spend but want to do it to help their own self interests or they simply believe the c*** economic theories of Gordon Brown, Krugman et al.

I hope we return to real common sense economics soon.

Thoughts...

+ 1

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Practice: Many rich countries have trade surpluses. And many poor countries have trade deficits. Theory: Since Adam Smith and David Ricardo.

*sigh* we have gone through this already, all the rich countries you talk about manipulate their currencies in one way or another. Here's a run down of a few -

germany - currency peg via european union

japan - currency manipulator

norway - sterilization of foreign revenues

netherlands - currency pegged to the euro

switzerland - currency manpulator

Need i go on??

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Spending more money than you have and running up enormous debts is financially incompetent whichever side of the political spectrum you stand on. George Bush was about as right-wing as they come, but his low taxing, high spending policies still screwed the US just as royally as Gordon Brown's stupidity screwed the UK. On the other hand, most other North European countries are far more socialist than the UK, and yet they have relatively sound economies.

The socialists do not have a monopoly on financial ineptitude by any measure.

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Leftism works like this: if a statement feels good it must be true.

Who was it who won many an election by promising tax cuts and claiming that Labour would push taxes up?

Who was it that used to say that throwing more people in jail cured crime?

Who constantly called for more bobbies on the beat?

Who used to call for the removal of nearly all 'red tape' but now wants to regulate the banks?

Who is going to cut defence spending after arguing that our boys overseas were not getting the right equipment.

Who is it who used these arguments to nearly win the last election and are now going back on all of them.

I would not mind so much if the only reason being given for these massive U-turns was lack of funds. We all know that's what it's all about but these guys are politicians and they can't help but keep on trying to BS the rest of us. They can't just say "We should not be cutting these things but we have no money". They have to try and claim that everything is being done for good reasons and not just to save a few quid.

I always new that most of the tired old 'tools' the Tories used in elections were mostly hot air and certainly not based on much more than an appeal to the unthinking gut reaction of a certain type of person. Now everybody should be able to see it.

If you are that certain type of person, and there are plenty of them who regularly post reactionary nonsense here, you must be aware that most of this governments recent pronouncements do not align themselves with what you thought you were voting for.

In short, we all have a government enacting policies that nobody voted for.

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The appearance that one side of politics, be it left or right, has handled the economy better is an urban myth.

It is mostly luck as to who happens to take over at which point in the economic cycle.

When Labour took over they just ran with tory policies, seeing that house prices were rising. At the start all looked great but by the end they were having to pay out huge sums to stop the peasants revolting due to house prices making life unbearable.

Agreed.

Don't forget that the Tories claimed the credit for the state of the economy for all of the first couple of terms of the last Labour government and were largely justified in doing so. It is easy to wash your hands of something when you are in opposition and that's what they have done. <_<

The pain we are about to endure would have come harder and faster if they had been in charge during the initial credit crunch. You can argue with me as to whether that would have been a good thing or not but nobody can deny that it is true. The way they are acting now is clear proof of that.

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The Socialists/unions/lefties do get it only to well.

They understand that the Capitalist system is exploitative and oppressive for working class people. That boom and bust is inherent in the system.

Its a rigged game. A stacked deck. There is no use trying to explain to a leftie why what they are saying doesnt fit in with how the capitalist system works

like the origainal post does because they dont believe in the system full stop.

Edited by Fudge

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  • 140 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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