LuckyOne Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 As per title. Of course, most may not be interested as he is a South African who plays for South Africa and not England ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theboltonfury Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 As per title. Of course, most may not be interested as he is a South African who plays for South Africa and not England ..... No. He's hugley talented but dour and a bit Boycottish. If I had a tenner to buy a ticket to see one all rounder play he wouldn't be in my top 5. Botham, Sobers, Gilchrist, Hadlee, Khan. Dev. Even Flintoff, who is no way as talented as Kallis used to make the spectator be genuinley excited. Kallis doesn't do that. Ever. It's Botham for me as he was just pure Hollywood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel stallion Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 I think he's close. He doesn't quite have the Botham or Sobers je ne sais quoi, but based upon performance and results it's difficult not to label him right up there - I guess the order of your top 5 or 10 or whatever comes down to a lot of subjectivity (who he played with against etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel stallion Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 No. He's hugley talented but dour and a bit Boycottish. If I had a tenner to buy a ticket to see one all rounder play he wouldn't be in my top 5. Botham, Sobers, Gilchrist, Hadlee, Khan. Dev. Even Flintoff, who is no way as talented as Kallis used to make the spectator be genuinley excited. Kallis doesn't do that. Ever. It's Botham for me as he was just pure Hollywood. Do you see Ghilchrist as an all-rounder? Fair play - never really thought of him as one myself (awesome player though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theboltonfury Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Do you see Ghilchrist as an all-rounder? Fair play - never really thought of him as one myself (awesome player though). Yes, as he frees up a space by not having to have a specialist batter (he averaged over 50 in 96 tests) and the need for a sole keeper, I think is second only to Healy in term sof keeping dismissals. He was utterly brilliant for a few years. Just when you thought you were through the Aussies, he'd come in and blast a ton. He'd have got in the side on his own in either role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel stallion Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Yes, as he frees up a space by not having to have a specialist batter (he averaged over 50 in 96 tests) and the need for a sole keeper, I think is second only to Healy in term sof keeping dismissals. He was utterly brilliant for a few years. Just when you thought you were through the Aussies, he'd come in and blast a ton. He'd have got in the side on his own in either role. Legend eh? Yeah, fair enough - I just always excluded him as he doesn't bowl (much - I have seen him attempt it) and there is a decent tradition of batting wicket keepers - I guess I reserved a special category for them - of which he was by far the best. I'm uncomfortable including a non-bowler. I think I'm a bit OCD in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swissy_fit Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 As per title. Of course, most may not be interested as he is a South African who plays for South Africa and not England ..... Great talent. Not a team man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyOne Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 Great talent. Not a team man. Many exceptionally talented people are very selfish and self indulgent although the way that this manifests itself is different (stats, money, women, the limelight, booze drugs etc). Kallis's apparent pursuit of personal stats at the expense of everything else does make him unpleasant to watch and isolates him from the rest of the team but the stats are pretty amazing. To my mind, Botham is too much like Beckham. Their on field successes are overwhelmed by their off field personas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I'd like to leave that one well alone for fear of knicking an ugly edge to 3rd slip. (But he is a bit of an oaf though.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 To my mind, Botham is too much like Beckham. Their on field successes are overwhelmed by their off field personas. Botham was like Beckham, except that he had talent, was world class, and did (still does?) a lot of work for charity. Other than that, Identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel stallion Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Botham was like Beckham, except that he had talent, was world class, and did (still does?) a lot of work for charity. Other than that, Identical. Can you just clarify. Are you saying that Botham was far more talented than Beckham in their respective sports, or that Beckham had no talent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Can you just clarify. Are you saying that Botham was far more talented than Beckham in their respective sports, or that Beckham had no talent? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel stallion Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Yes. I'll take that as 'neither' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Botham better than Kallis any day. You look at Botham's stats, they are world beating. In his first five years as an all rounder no one could touch him. However, as with most talented people (with perhaps the exception of Jonny Wilkinson), they get too big for their boots or don't stay as committed as they were when they initially started. Without Brian close around him at Somerset, he started to dominate and became too big a character in the dressing room. Botham caused tensions and really he needed to be put back in his place but wasn't. Botham left under a cloud when he left Somerset and rightly so IMHO. However take Botham at his best then compare Kallis at his, no comparison IMHO. I blame Peter Roebuck for that a bit though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyOne Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 Botham better than Kallis any day. You look at Botham's stats, they are world beating. In his first five years as an all rounder no one could touch him. <snip> Their test career stats are interesting : Botham : 102 tests : 5,200 runs : 33.54 average : 383 wickets : 28.40 average : 2.99 economy rate Kallis : 140 tests : 11,126 runs : 55.07 average : 266 wickets : 31.59 average : 2.81 economy rate I would compare Botham to Shaun Pollock (a bowling all rounder rather than a batting all rounder) : Pollock : 108 tests : 3,781 runs : 32.31 average : 421 wickets : 23.11 average : 2.39 economy rate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theboltonfury Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Their test career stats are interesting : Botham : 102 tests : 5,200 runs : 33.54 average : 383 wickets : 28.40 average : 2.99 economy rate Kallis : 140 tests : 11,126 runs : 55.07 average : 266 wickets : 31.59 average : 2.81 economy rate I would compare Botham to Shaun Pollock (a bowling all rounder rather than a batting all rounder) : Pollock : 108 tests : 3,781 runs : 32.31 average : 421 wickets : 23.11 average : 2.39 economy rate Not a great average fro Botham, but surely two of the finest pieces of batting of the last 25 years for sheer enjoyment. His thrashed 149 no, which Lille described as the worst knock he'd ever seen, was magical. Then the 2 sixes off Mcdermott in the Ashes, which gave us the lines 'don't even bother looking for that one, never mind try to find it' and 'into the confectionary stall and out again' Botham was, for me, the most brilliant cricketer. He got banned, came back, took a wicket with his first ball. He posed in the slips with his hands on knees, then took the most unbelievable catches. During test matches, he'd go out on the pop with Lamb and be asleep in the dressing room the next day. He is rumoured ot have said 'wake me when it's my turn to bat' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty1080 Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I'll take that as 'neither'Â Â I reckon it's both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theboltonfury Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 And that was part of his 'problem', a great guy, but had he have been more committed for longer in his career, you wouldn't get people trying to compare stats. I think he just genuinely enjoyed being Ian Botham. He knew what was expected of him and played up to it. He played 101 test, until 36 years old, so he really did have a massive committment in that respect. I just can't put Kallis and Botham in the same breath. Nevermind Pollock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I.T. Botham and Mike Brearley - the perfect combination to stun Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel stallion Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I reckon it's both. Wow. Fair enough. Can't say I don't think that is ridiculous, but maybe I'm daft. Certainly I wish we had a lot more players as bereft of talent as Beckham if that is indeed what he was. I think he was absolutely superb, brilliant player (although, I admit, sometimes over rated). He had everything the team was missing in this last campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theboltonfury Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I reckon it's both. For a few years, David Beckham was brilliant. Admittedly, he's no SWP or Aaron Lennon, but he was bloody good. He would still have added quite a bit to the dismal showing if he'd not have been injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swissy_fit Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 For a few years, David Beckham was brilliant. He would still have added quite a bit to the dismal showing if he'd not have been injured. Well, he would have been trying hard and encouraging the others, which would have been one better than some of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Sutton Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Botham is hugely overrated. Made a lot of his runs against poor post-Packer sides. Lived on a reputation garnered in just a couple of games. Wasn't even the best all-rounder in county cricket at the time. Would have to put him fourth, way behind behind Hadlee, Procter, and Rice. Surprised no-one has mentioned Imran Khan. He just gor better and better. IIRC in the last half of his career he averaged over 50 with the bat and under 20 with the ball. And that was without facing a Pakistani side which was one of the weakest in world cricket. Didn't Khan play county cricket the same time as Botham? Better make that the fifth best then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theboltonfury Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Botham is hugely overrated. Made a lot of his runs against poor post-Packer sides. Lived on a reputation garnered in just a couple of games. Wasn't even the best all-rounder in county cricket at the time. Would have to put him fourth, way behind behind Hadlee, Procter, and Rice. Surprised no-one has mentioned Imran Khan. He just gor better and better. IIRC in the last half of his career he averaged over 50 with the bat and under 20 with the ball. And that was without facing a Pakistani side which was one of the weakest in world cricket. Didn't Khan play county cricket the same time as Botham? Better make that the fifth best then How can someone with an international test career of 15 years, 101 tests, over 5000 rund and 383 wickets be overrated? By the timer Packer came, he's already been the fastest ever to 100 wickets and reached 7 or 8 hundreds. Pretty useful West Indies sides back then! I would hazard a guess that about 30% of his matches were against the Aussies, and he fared pretty well against them. Possibly our best ever Aussie thrasher. Why is everyone still being touted as the next Ian Botham, 20 years later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 How can someone with an international test career of 15 years, 101 tests, over 5000 rund and 383 wickets be overrated? By the timer Packer came, he's already been the fastest ever to 100 wickets and reached 7 or 8 hundreds. Pretty useful West Indies sides back then! I would hazard a guess that about 30% of his matches were against the Aussies, and he fared pretty well against them. Possibly our best ever Aussie thrasher. Why is everyone still being touted as the next Ian Botham, 20 years later? and his slip catching was brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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