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monty1080

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But then they'd be in the PL and in the England A team, so it's a bit of chicken and egg. For me, it starts at grass roots, i.e. when the kids first start playing the game, a new mentality must be instilled. Not one based on the ability to run round like a headless chicken for the duration of the match, or one that says you must do 50 circuits of the pitch before you kick a ball in training.

The attitudes from 11+ just get worse, skillful dedicated players get kicked off the park by meat heads with parents with the little Englander mentality.

Unfortunately this and the next generation are gone IMO. The media must do its part in managing expectations over the next decade. If the right practices are put in place now, maybe in 10-15 years time we'll have kids coming through who can sting more than 5 passes together. Maybe.

Agree with all of that. However, I think in the meantime all that can be done is to pick the best players - not just the most well known, tried and tested (and failed).

I agree with Red Alert to a large extent, I just don't think you have to necessarily go to the Championship. Seriously why take Lennon, Heskey, SWP, J Cole, Crouch etc? Why not take A Johnson, Young, Agbonlahor etc?

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No, but I think the problems with England are largely entrenched in the players and the system in the premiership. Since Sky, etc. aren't likely to agree to a cap on foreign players, or any changes to the playing shcedule, they need to cast their net wider than the current crop of premiership players. Not just the Championship, but up and coming players, who are not 'household names'.

The big names had their chance and failed. Look at John Terry in yesterday's match - shocking - better defenders could be recruited from most if not all of the English leagues. The strategy of letting players 'prove' themselves in the premiership then recruiting them to the England team seems not to be working. Repeating the same mistakes over and over is an option I suppose.

I agree with your points, just not the solution, it won't make a difference if we have Honest Jon Q defender from QPR instead of Terry, he's still going to be inadequate.

As the last 10 years have proved, occasionally throwing together exhausted premier league players who are all multi-millionaires and spend their days surrounded by talented foreigners won't lead to great success. How motivated would you be if the price of failure was having to spend a few more moments sitting in your Bentley outside the mini mansion, contemplating what kind of tiles the new swimming pool will have? It's just a blip for the England squad, their summer holiday in SA has ended a bit early.

Again you won't find me arguing against your point, but attitudes must be changed for the kids, by parents, coaches and the media.

What can the FA realistically do about the players wages though? They have complete control of the England manager's job and pay. By offering silly money (and a silly contract) to Ericsson they set a bad example and a bit like Newcastle used to be a soft touch where lazy players can go to earn a mint without having to tax themselves, England must surely have that reputation at the international level. Ideally the England manager's pay would be linked to competition performance, so that less than 50% is 'salary'.

An example has to be set by the fans, the people who pay the Murdoch tax. Unfortunately the general population are just too stupid to realise that they are the root cause of all the nations footballing problems. If they don't pay Sky, don't buy the merchandise, support their local teams etc then the money just won't be there. Does that mean they won't be able to watch United? Of course not, maybe the BBC will have a change of winning the rights to show some games.

There is nothing wrong with buying a ticket for a PL match, although over priced, the face value of the ticket is not where all the money is coming from. Buy the ticket, but do you have to buy the replica shirt too? What difference does it make to the team or yourself?

Nothing will change though. I'm really just talking in dreams so in answer to your question, I don't know the answer.

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Seriously why take Lennon, Heskey, SWP, J Cole, Crouch etc? Why not take A Johnson, Young, Agbonlahor etc?

I'm not getting on Fabio's case here because blaming him is a red herring but only he can answer that and IMO, he got that wrong. Heskey, SWP, Crouch out - Johnson, Young, Agbonlahor in will enhance the team.

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I agree with your points, just not the solution, it won't make a difference if we have Honest Jon Q defender from QPR instead of Terry, he's still going to be inadequate.

The difference is that Honest Jon Q defender is going to make an effort and might get time to play together with the rest of the team, instead of spending time in Hello magazine or posing for adverts, etc. Terry can clearly put in a good performance, but he's not that bothered about losing. Is it a coincidence that the Germany squad that gave us a 4-1 drubbing (and that score flattered England) is comprised of young players at the start of their careers?

As for Rooney. I can only hope he is suffering from an injury, 'cos otherwise, it should be a long time before he appears in an England shirt after those 4 games.

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The difference is that Honest Jon Q defender is going to make an effort and might get time to play together with the rest of the team, instead of spending time in Hello magazine or posing for adverts, etc.  Terry can clearly put in a good performance, but he's not that bothered about losing.  Is it a coincidence that the Germany squad that gave us a 4-1 drubbing (and that score flattered England) is comprised of young players at the start of their careers?

As for Rooney.  I can only hope he is suffering from an injury, 'cos otherwise, it should be a long time before he appears in an England shirt after those 4 games.

+1If our 'brightest and best' aren't bothered, give their jobs to people who are.

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The difference is that Honest Jon Q defender is going to make an effort and might get time to play together with the rest of the team, instead of spending time in Hello magazine or posing for adverts, etc. Terry can clearly put in a good performance, but he's not that bothered about losing. Is it a coincidence that the Germany squad that gave us a 4-1 drubbing (and that score flattered England) is comprised of young players at the start of their careers?

As for Rooney. I can only hope he is suffering from an injury, 'cos otherwise, it should be a long time before he appears in an England shirt after those 4 games.

No it's not a coincidence, but I'd bet my left bollock that the parenting, coaching and general nurturing is a million miles away from what we have in England. How many of that German team play in the Premier League, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Inter/AC Milan etc? I'm pretty sure it's zero. The PL is poison to English football and the spending time in Hello magazine or posing for adverts, etc. are a consequence of Coca Cola paying Murdoch millions for advertising space inadvertently paid for by the subscriptions of the general public.

I'd have rather had Jon Q yesterday than Terry for sure, but it wouldn't have made a difference to the end result.

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+1If our 'brightest and best' aren't bothered, give their jobs to people who are.

I agree as well.

However, going back to the post from the Scotland supporter (forget the name) - during the qualifiers, whilst England were hardly fantastic, the players were generally on or just below par. If Capello had dropped Terry and used Mr H John and Mr John played shit (which if we are really honest he probably would) Capello would be fvcking crucified - and rightly so. Come on, you can't seriously tell me anyone was calling for Terry et al to be dropped back then.

This England team saved 90% of their shitness for the WC finals. The biggest issue was the lack of alternatives when things went wrong. This is where I think there should be a balance - Terry definitely should have been there, Rooney definitely should have been there - but when they turned to utter crap, a sprinkling of up and coming, young (but tested against quality) players should have been an option. Not a list of proven failures.

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This England team saved 90% of their shitness for the WC finals. The biggest issue was the lack of alternatives when things went wrong. This is where I think there should be a balance - Terry definitely should have been there, Rooney definitely should have been there - but when they turned to utter crap, a sprinkling of up and coming, young (but tested against quality) players should have been an option. Not a list of proven failures.

Yes, if someone had told me a month ago we would struggle in a group with USA, Algeria and Slovenia, I would have probably laughed so hard I let out a bit of wee.

As it is, they were very lucky to get through the group stage to be crucified by Germany. Still I'm glad they had Beckham as a human mascot standing around on the sidelines, what a great talisman he turned out to be!

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Yes, if someone had told me a month ago we would struggle in a group with USA, Algeria and Slovenia, I would have probably laughed so hard I let out a bit of wee.

As it is, they were very lucky to get through the group stage to be crucified by Germany. Still I'm glad they had Beckham as a human mascot standing around on the sidelines, what a great talisman he turned out to be!

:lol:

At times though I'd happily have allowed him to try and sneak on wearing a wig. Even injured and wearing sandals he would have improved things mightily.

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Found this on the BBC website in the comments section of the England blog. He has it spot on and put it much better plan I ever could.

The biggest problem with English football is something that I believe has afflicted our economy and society itself, which is that we are totally subservient to the free market. This is shown by the business model used by the Premier League, which is fuelled by obsession with money and pure unadulterated greed. An example is the hugely profitable TV deals negotiated with Sky, and the laissez faire approach to the issue of foreign players.

If you look at Germany, they employ a model that is much more tailored to the needs of the supporters, the national team, and the long term sustainability of the clubs. This is why they have in place a limit on the number of foreign players that a team can put out at one time. This prevents unfair competition that hinders the development of their local players, allowing them game time to flourish and improve. They are now reaping the benefits as witnessed by the brilliance of Ozil and Muller. I believe this is in part a reflection of the attitudes with respect to economics in the UK and Europe in general. While the UK prefers Laissez Faire light touch regulation, the Europeans have employed an economic model known as the European Social Model, that involves much more regulation and intervention to achieve goals.

Therefore, the German FA has no qualms about introducing quotas of foreign players, nor in terms of fixing prices so that fans can afford to watch games. They are not going to be slaves to the free market, and they are willing to intervene to achieve desired objectives, like a competitive, talented national team.

So, what is to be done? I believe that we probably do need to put a limit on the number of foreign players that a Premiership team can put out in any match. This is NOT because of any xenophobic, populist reasons that the Daily Mail like to make at all opportunity. It is imperative we do this so that young, English players get the chance to play first team football at the top level, experience the pressures that go with it, and be forced to display the prerequisite skill that is required to survive at the top level. Otherwise, many of these players may only get into the first team quite late, and normally not at the club where he received his training, and may not have the experience to compete in top level international competitions.

Of course, improving coaching at a young age, putting an emphasis on skills, technique and intelligent movement are all imperative if we are to have a talented national team again. Moreover, playing on smaller pitches will also have benefits with respect to developing these skills. But the FA, and the country itself, needs to change its whole psyche with respect to free market capitalism. It is this worship of the free market that has in part contributed to the gross inequality between the Premiership and the lower leagues, and the resulting imports of cheap, talented foreign players who take up places in the team that could go to English players.

What is even more troublesome is that most clubs are also importing young, talented foreign players now, who they themselves develop. Because these foreign players spend more than 5 years at the Premiership club, they will qualify as a "home grown" player, even though they are foreign and won't be playing international football for England. This is another example of the free market ideology dominating every policy. Because it is generally cheaper to import young foreign players than invest in a strong youth program that will develop young English players (although to be fair a lot of clubs are rectifying this situation) most teams are going for the former option, and the Premier League are doing nothing about it, because having talented foreign players will bring in crowds, improve club revenues and make the brand more profitably which is ultimately one of the main objectives of the Premier League, enabling them to expand and export their "brand" to foreign markets and increase the size of the EPL cake.

So, the solutions to this problem are simple really, based on common sense. We should limit the number of foreign players who can play in the team at one time, invest in grassroots football, develop more coaches who will stress the importance of technique, and have a more equitable distribution of EPL funds, so that all the clubs have the ability to develop their youth system, increasing the probability of all clubs producing young English talent.

Please note that I am not ranting against foreigners at all, because that would be grossly unfair and in fact bigoted. It would be like those individuals who abuse call centre workers in foreign countries who have taken jobs that have been outsourced by UK based companies. It is not the fault of the workers that the jobs have been moved abroad, it is the fault of the companies who are taking advantage of cheap foreign labour in order to make even larger profits. The same situation is on show in the EPL. We do need to stop the influx of foreign players, not because they've done anything wrong, but because WE MUST look to improve the quality of young English players who can, in 5-10 years time, can make us competitive in international tournaments (note I am not talking about winning tournaments, just being able to compete with other nations on a level technical playing field)

The quota on foreign players may be to the detriment in the short term for our EPL teams, but in the long run, it will be worth it.

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No it's not a coincidence, but I'd bet my left bollock that the parenting, coaching and general nurturing is a million miles away from what we have in England. How many of that German team play in the Premier League, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Inter/AC Milan etc? I'm pretty sure it's zero. The PL is poison to English football and the spending time in Hello magazine or posing for adverts, etc. are a consequence of Coca Cola paying Murdoch millions for advertising space inadvertently paid for by the subscriptions of the general public.

I'd have rather had Jon Q yesterday than Terry for sure, but it wouldn't have made a difference to the end result.

I believe its one - Jerome Boateng has signed for Man City....

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Found this on the BBC website in the comments section of the England blog. He has it spot on and put it much better plan I ever could.

This guy is spot on.

But things won't change, the EPL has become a cash cow, too big to fail (where have we heard that before) and the English National team has become an irritating inconvienience to the masters of club football. We have no national pride anymore, not where it counts anyway - in the upper echelons of the F.A and Premier League.

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But then they'd be in the PL and in the England A team, so it's a bit of chicken and egg. For me, it starts at grass roots, i.e. when the kids first start playing the game, a new mentality must be instilled. Not one based on the ability to run round like a headless chicken for the duration of the match, or one that says you must do 50 circuits of the pitch before you kick a ball in training.

The attitudes from 11+ just get worse, skillful dedicated players get kicked off the park by meat heads with parents with the little Englander mentality.

Unfortunately this and the next generation are gone IMO. The media must do its part in managing expectations over the next decade. If the right practices are put in place now, maybe in 10-15 years time we'll have kids coming through who can sting more than 5 passes together. Maybe.

This is pretty much it for me too.

Several years ago (must have been after we got dumped out of Euro 96 by the Germans, again!) I read an article by Gary Lineker about the difference between the way football was taught in England and Germany. He noted that in Germany schoolboys did not play on a full size pitch, or with a full size ball until they were sixteen years old. In contrast, English schoolboys play on a full size pitch at a very early age, as early as nine years old. The bigger pitches encouraged the English boys to play a kick and rush style, whereas the German boys had to hone their football skills to succeed.

<Name drop alert>

I also once had a conversation with former England player Alan Mullary, who had witnessed first hand the way that Brazilian boys learned football. According to him Brazilian youngsters were much more intent on learning how to control the ball, to the point that they spent most of their time "showing off" rather than playing a game. By contrast, he noted, English boys would go straight for the "jumpers for goal posts" approach.

Another problem is that we have a poor attitude to sport in general. A few years ago I worked with a women whose daughter played for a local youth team (she was 9 or 10yo). My daughter had asked for an afternoon off to watch her daughter's school sports day. The next day I asked her how her daughter had done, assuming that she had a good chance of winning. To my amazement she told me that her daughter had run the pants off the other girls, but according to school policy, she had waited at the finishing line for her classmates to catch up, and they had all held hands and crossed the line together.

I think we can argue about who should be the England manager, or whether we should have taken Heskey or Bent all we like, but until we address the way we teach kids to play football at grass roots, we are doomed to be amongst the international also rans.

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This is pretty much it for me too.

Several years ago (must have been after we got dumped out of Euro 96 by the Germans, again!) I read an article by Gary Lineker about the difference between the way football was taught in England and Germany. He noted that in Germany schoolboys did not play on a full size pitch, or with a full size ball until they were sixteen years old. In contrast, English schoolboys play on a full size pitch at a very early age, as early as nine years old. The bigger pitches encouraged the English boys to play a kick and rush style, whereas the German boys had to hone their football skills to succeed.

<Name drop alert>

I also once had a conversation with former England player Alan Mullary, who had witnessed first hand the way that Brazilian boys learned football. According to him Brazilian youngsters were much more intent on learning how to control the ball, to the point that they spent most of their time "showing off" rather than playing a game. By contrast, he noted, English boys would go straight for the "jumpers for goal posts" approach.

Another problem is that we have a poor attitude to sport in general. A few years ago I worked with a women whose daughter played for a local youth team (she was 9 or 10yo). My daughter had asked for an afternoon off to watch her daughter's school sports day. The next day I asked her how her daughter had done, assuming that she had a good chance of winning. To my amazement she told me that her daughter had run the pants off the other girls, but according to school policy, she had waited at the finishing line for her classmates to catch up, and they had all held hands and crossed the line together.

I think we can argue about who should be the England manager, or whether we should have taken Heskey or Bent all we like, but until we address the way we teach kids to play football at grass roots, we are doomed to be amongst the international also rans.

Many Brazilian players learn on the streets, and many don't even have access to a "proper" ball...Or if they do, its small, or I've heard they may use a load of rags tied together..

Utterly agree about youth football. I don't think a kid should even set foot on a full sized pitch until he's at least 14. Technique should be brought in from a very early age and they should only be allowed to use heavy balls, which are very hard to loft let alone kick above head height.

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The Daily Mash has got to the bottom of matters:

ENGLAND PLAYERS TIRED AFTER LONG SEASON OF TRAVELODGE SKANKS

FOOTBALL chiefs are to consider a reduction in the number of spray-tan trollops that top-flight players have to wheelbarrow in a motorway hotel.

As the England squad arrived back from South Africa, officials said the players were tired after a long season of driving their childish cars to the High Wycombe Travelodge for wanton, beer-fuelled intercourse with wave upon wave of ghastly, fake-titted ultra-skanks.

An insider said: "We need to take a fresh look at the league schedule and see if during European Championship and World Cup years we can finish the season that bit earlier so the players are not still chin-deep in filthy, fame-hungry little strumpets come the middle of May.

"When you add the league campaign, the FA and Carling Cups and European club competitions, the last thing a player needs is more than, say, 30 blonde, pox-ridden floozies homing in on him like he's a big, stupid ******* with too much money."

But leading figures in the game have dismissed skank-rationing as too difficult to police and insist it would be much simpler to identify a new generation of promising young players and then hack their testicles off.

Former England manager Graham Taylor said: "They could keep some sperm in a little cup so they're still able to start a family when they retire from international football.

"In the meantime we'd have a world class squad full of alert, focused eunuchs, all with that extra bit of pace because they won't have a big, annoying scrotum continually getting in the way."

Meanwhile Fifa president Sepp Blatter has apologised to England for Frank Lampard's goal being disallowed, adding: "And that's the same apology I gave to your mommas last night."

Fifa has also confirmed that a number of items were taken from the England players' rooms on Sunday, including underwear, a medal and a Fisher Price Play Centre.

A source said: "I'm sure that whoever stole Wayne Rooney's underpants will now realise that all the money in the world is no substitute for a lesson in basic personal hygiene."

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Three different managers but:

used the same players (more or less)

and the same outdated systems.

Yet somehow, everyone expected a different result?

I also found it strange that Robert Green was dropped after one mistake, whilst others still got picked regardless.

You can only conclude that Fabio, Sven whoever doesn't actually pick the team. Maybe the likes of Rooney, Terry & Lampard are too commercially valuable to the FA to demote from the first team regarldess of their performances?? Was this the source of the so called dressing room malcontent?

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I don't really know if England need to do better at the world cup. I mean, who's going to pay for it for a start? The Premier League is a big business not some feeder league to the England team.

Yes, the FA could spend gazillions on National Academies and coach kids to play the passing game the rest of the world play but any players that get good will be snapped up by the big clubs and care more about spit-roasting Nuts models and buying pimpmobiles than England in five minutes flat.

The best hope is that the Premier League gets into big trouble, no one can afford massive transfer fees and daft contracts anymore, and have to bring in some local youth players. Even then you have to remember that there are plenty of teams that used to be seen as minnows from South America, Africa and Central and Eastern Europe getting good that could simply crowd England out.

We have to stop giving so much of a toss about England.

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Guest theboltonfury

Anyone else hearing rumours of press super injunctions and a split in the camp relating to it?

No. Where have you been hearing this?

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The FT had a good analysis today of how Germany had systematically improved their skill base since hitting rock bottom a few years ago.

FT - Simon Kuper

Basically the Germans are young, light and fast. They had weaknesses in defence, but more than made up for this with their passing skill, team work and lightening speed. One of their wingers was clocked at 31kph (and others at 25kph),

heres a clip of current Dutch star Eljero Elia

hitting 51km/h

its at 1:45 into the clip but its worth watching the lot

as this boy is a sublime talent

I watched this guy for a couple of years at FC Twente

and knew he would be a star

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