They're Unfair And Unaffordable

[leicestersq]

“If Nick Clegg comes for our pensions, as he boasted only yesterday, then we will ballot for national strike action,” he affirmed to noisy and enthusiastic applause.

Bring it on Prentis, it will be an easy way to work out which of the leaches we won't actually miss and can post them on their cards.

Do you remember the fireman's strike? They wheeled out the Green Goddesses, and got a bunch of 18 year old kids with the RAF to take over the work with half the resources.

They seemed to do a far better job.

No strike since then.

Public sector workers strike, bring it on. Please. We dont have to pay them when they are on strike do we.

Judges, you are the most overpaid and pensioned out of the lot of them, get your placards out now. Puuuleeese.

[Guest BetterOffOnBenefits]

I hold my hands up - I think I misunderstood your point

I suspected (I think wrongly) that you were trying to generalise that these 2 jobs were somehow representative, but you are right you did not explicitly say this at all

can I apologise, and then ask, more specifically, what were you trying to say? was it simply that inefficiency is also represented in the private sector?

Apology accepted

I was just saying that there is waste in the private sector, it's not all one sided...but I do agree that there is substantial waste in the public sector and it needs to be chopped.

[mhifoe]

I was watching the local news last week featuring the latest initiative from the 'Community safety partnership'.

They are visiting local pubs giving out little cards. These cards inform drinkers that getting drunk and fighting is a bad idea.

How will society survive without such essential front line services?

[Si1]

2 - 3 % is a great return, given that the ftse is down from 6900 to 5200 over 10 years, and interest rates are at 0.5%.

Would like to know how to get that 3%.

the long term (and I mean over more than a 20 yr time period) average of the stockmarket - and remarkably consistent across non-corrupt global stockmarkets, so Europe, UK, USA and now developed Asia - is 7-8% above inflation

you just need to be patient, except property investors aren't, but there you go

[Si1]

Apology accepted

I was just saying that there is waste in the private sector, it's not all one sided...but I do agree that there is substantial waste in the public sector and it needs to be chopped.

lok motherf....

err, OK, I agree...

[leicestersq]

the long term (and I mean over more than a 20 yr time period) average of the stockmarket - and remarkably consistent across non-corrupt global stockmarkets, so Europe, UK, USA and now developed Asia - is 7-8% above inflation

you just need to be patient, except property investors aren't, but there you go

Remind me of the performance to the Japanese Stock Market over the last 20 years?

[rolf]

I can see the battle lines being drawn up.

I expect to see some measures of austerity by all governments and the usual public sector whining and striking. Probably, government won't go anywhere near enough in terms of necessary action.

What will happen is that this will all come to a head in 5 years. The battle will begin: boomers versus everyone else.

Boomers: pointing to their contract

Everyone else: refusing to pay

What will happen?

1) strike actions by public sector

2) emergence of new radical movements representing the young, disenchanted. Perhaps more militant behaviour

3) mass protests when VAT increased to 50%

4) rioting, looting

5) mass emigration by indigenous young to live in EU countries without this problem (are we all fked?) or to developing countries

6) referendum on pensions funding=boomers lose

7) boomers forced to sell property to fund exorbitant lifestyle

8) HPC

9) normality restored....for now

The boomers think they can win. They cannot. Where will the money come from? Broken pension promises may be unprecedented but they will soon become normal.

[Si1]

Remind me of the performance to the Japanese Stock Market over the last 20 years?

I said 'non corrupt' - Japan is not a free market

developed Asia is generally to be taken to mean ex-Japan, so sorry if that was not clear

[Cogs]

The average number is rubbish and very misleading because it would include people who have only worked a couple of years in Local Government.

I would like to see the complete distribution of Local Government pensions for those who have served at least 25 years in Local Government.

Well work it out yourself then, the average LG salary in 2009 was 13k a year (source CIPFA). If you retire at 60 instead of 65, ie. after 25 years re: Rule 85, you lose 33%. That puts us in the range I specified. In doing comparisons you also need to remember 75% of LG employees are women. The sort of comparison you seem to want is unrepresentative of the organisations you are talking about, so I'm not really sure where it gets you. 25 years of unbroken full-time service is very uncommon. By the same token, I wouldn't really think it was sensible to demand to see figures for footballer's pensions after 30 years of playing in the Premiership...Teddy Sheringham has actually quit now hasn't he?

As an aside, when you talk about the public sector at large, you are mostly talking about women. I think its going to be very interesting what sort of gender dynamics a million women losing their jobs will have. And of course they are the biggest users of the services that will be taken away as well (it is sexist yet not inaccurate to think things pertaining to children are mostly a female concern, single mothers alone constitute enough numbers to make it work out like that). Perhaps we'll roll back the clock to the 1930s? Then again, as a group, women have been very good at organising themselves as a group in a way the working class today lack. In the 80s the battlelines were geography based which amounted to class. This time round they could be gender based. I can imagine "SamCam" becoming a Marie Antoinette hate figure. Her "stationary business" already has a certain Hameau de la reine vibe about it.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Cogs

[SHERWICK]

Well work it out yourself then, the average LG salary in 2009 was 13k a year (source CIPFA). If you retire at 60 instead of 65, ie. after 25 years re: Rule 85, you lose 33%. That puts us in the range I specified. In doing comparisons you also need to remember 75% of LG employees are women. The sort of comparison you seem to want is unrepresentative of the organisations you are talking about, so I'm not really sure where it gets you. 25 years of unbroken full-time service is very uncommon. By the same token, I wouldn't really think it was sensible to demand to see figures for footballer's pensions after 30 years of playing in the Premiership...Teddy Sheringham has actually quit now hasn't he?

As an aside, when you talk about the public sector at large, you are mostly talking about women. I think its going to be very interesting what sort of gender dynamics a million women losing their jobs will have. And of course they are the biggest users of the services that will be taken away as well (it is sexist yet not inaccurate to think things pertaining to children are mostly a female concern, single mothers alone constitute enough numbers to make it work out like that). Perhaps we'll roll back the clock to the 1930s? Then again, as a group, women have been very good at organising themselves as a group in a way the working class today lack. In the 80s the battlelines were geography based which amounted to class. This time round they could be gender based. I can imagine "SamCam" becoming a Marie Antoinette hate figure.

Thanks Cogs. Do you have a link to the CIPFA data please? I would like to see a breakdown of this £13k average to see how many years service this includes. Note that I never mentioned 'unbroken', just '25 years'. I really don't think the analogy with professional sportsmen like footballers is apt in this case either - perhaps you would like to take that back? Normal 'non-professional footballers' people work more than 25 years full time. Professional footballers don't.

Regarding the 25 years though, I would consider that an adequate length of time to build up a sufficient pension, i.e. if I had worked for less than 25 years in the public or private sector, I would not expect to have a sufficient pension. Do you disagree with this? I.e. do you think that one should have a sufficient pension from one's job (i.e. not including the state pension) if one has worked less than 25 years? If you do think so, then at what point do you draw the line?

It is thus ridiculous to include anyone with less than 25 years service in the average LG figures as this just gives a distorted picture... which can then be exploited to keep asking for higher pensions of course

Let's see the average figures for those in LG who have worked at least 25 years in LG (not unbroken).

(Note that hilltop's £4k average has already more than tripled to £13k).

[Cogs]

Thanks Cogs. Do you have a link to the CIPFA data please? I would like to see a breakdown of this £13k average to see how many years service this includes. Note that I never mentioned 'unbroken', just '25 years'. I really don't think the analogy with professional sportsmen like footballers is apt in this case either - perhaps you would like to take that back? Normal 'non-professional footballers' people work more than 25 years full time. Professional footballers don't.

Regarding the 25 years though, I would consider that an adequate length of time to build up a sufficient pension, i.e. if I had worked for less than 25 years in the public or private sector, I would not expect to have a sufficient pension. Do you disagree with this? I.e. do you think that one should have a sufficient pension from one's job (i.e. not including the state pension) if one has worked less than 25 years? If you do think so, then at what point do you draw the line?

It is thus ridiculous to include anyone with less than 25 years service in the average LG figures as this just gives a distorted picture... which can then be exploited to keep asking for higher pensions of course

Let's see the average figures for those in LG who have worked at least 25 years in LG (not unbroken).

(Note that hilltop's £4k average has already more than tripled to £13k).

No, its 13k in salary, not pension. And they need to work for 25 years, not less than 25 years, that is how you qualify to go early and face the appropriate actuarial reduction. This in itself seems to be seen as a bad thing, but I think its fair enough as a prorata kind of thing and it frees up employment for cheaper younger people.

http://www.cipfa.org...e_the_facts.pdf Shite 2004! So it could be a bit higher after all. Then again, we're talking about present pensioners not people who are going to retire in 2030.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Cogs

[SHERWICK]

No, its 13k in salary, not pension. And they need to work for 25 years, not less than 25 years, that is how you qualify to go early and face the appropriate actuarial reduction. This in itself seems to be seen as a bad thing, but I think its fair enough as a prorata kind of thing and it frees up employment for cheaper younger people.

http://www.cipfa.org...e_the_facts.pdf Shite 2004! So it could be a bit higher after all. Then again, we're talking about present pensioners not people who are going to retire in 2030.

Thanks for correcting that cogs. I've read the appropriate bit in the link: "

13. The average local government pension is presently just over £4,000 pa and the average employee is on a salary of approximately £13,000."

So we're back to square one. The £4k pa average LG pension is highly misleading - we need to see precisely how that £4k is derived - who is included exactly?

[Goat]

2 - 3 % is a great return, given that the ftse is down from 6900 to 5200 over 10 years, and interest rates are at 0.5%.

Would like to know how to get that 3%.

Comparing the peak of the dot com bubble to the trough of the deepest recession since the 1930s.

Why don't I think that's a reliable guide going forward?

[Guest sillybear2]

Thanks for correcting that cogs. I've read the appropriate bit in the link: "

13. The average local government pension is presently just over £4,000 pa and the average employee is on a salary of approximately £13,000."

So we're back to square one. The £4k pa average LG pension is highly misleading - we need to see precisely how that £4k is derived - who is included exactly?

You need the distribution, the unions like to give out these bull$hit averages but neglect to mention it includes lots of part time workers or former employees that only built up small entitlements before they left their employ.

For example, the fire service lets you retire at 50 after 30 years of service, you get a minimum of £15k and a £90k lump sum, or £20k per year and a smaller lump sum. The scheme is also fully ponzi with no assets, and the on going contributions don't even cover half of the outgoings, the tax payer makes up the rest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sm7rt

Of course they say this is to make up for lower pay, but average pay is now higher in the public sector than the private, and job security is also assured (until all these entitlements collectively bankrupt everyone).

Edited June 16, 2010 by sillybear2

[SHERWICK]

You need the distribution, the unions like to give out these bull$hit averages but neglect to mention it includes lots of part time workers or former employees that only built up small entitlements before they left their employ.

Precisely. Both cogs and hilltop know this of course.

[macca]

The Govt only needs to clamp down on those at the very top leaving with the platinum plated pensions. A typical public sector worker doesn't leave with that much. People forget that public sector workers have had much lower wages than private sector for decades, its only because private sector bosses have awarded themselves excessive bonuses and payrises at the expense of their lower paid workers and customers that public sector wages have gradually began to look half decent in comparison. Public sector has protected itself with unions and there is a good reason for being a member. Strangely many in the private sector see unions as the enemy!

[PopGun]

Are people seriously still under the delusion, that the concept of pensions will still exist in twenty years time?

[Guest Noodle]

Are people seriously still under the delusion, that the concept of pensions will still exist in twenty years time?