Thousands Of University Job Losses

[interestrateripoff]

When I was a student the Department had two Professors, one for each strand of the discipline. My last Department had more Professors than I can recall. Very few were 'Professor' material or justified their salary. I have a suspicion that the number of Professors is simply seen as a 'quality stamp' on the department for recruitment.

This I believe is one question which certainly impresses the parents of future students, it allows the dept to brag they have X number of Profs aren't we great and they'll be teaching. I can imagine that in some respect it's become a bit of a competition between Universities to have as many Profs as possible to look impressive.

[LiveinHope]

This I believe is one question which certainly impresses the parents of future students, it allows the dept to brag they have X number of Profs aren't we great and they'll be teaching. I can imagine that in some respect it's become a bit of a competition between Universities to have as many Profs as possible to look impressive.

A charade, like so much else.

Perhaps I am too tough, but most Professors I knew I would have classed no higher than Senior Lecturer, and only a few as Reader.

Edited August 14, 2015 by LiveinHope

[moesasji]

When I was a student the Department had two Professors, one for each strand of the discipline. My last Department had more Professors than I can recall. Very few were 'Professor' material or justified their salary. I have a suspicion that the number of Professors is simply seen as a 'quality stamp' on the department for recruitment.

My personal impression is that it is a reflection of this being an international market. If you don't pay enough good academics in good universities are bought away and we see this happening pretty often...and as the salary scale is fixed this is a likely outcome.

[LiveinHope]

My personal impression is that it is a reflection of this being an international market. If you don't pay enough good academics in good universities are bought away and we see this happening pretty often...and as the salary scale is fixed this is a likely outcome.

I'd contend that for many it is not all about salary. A large part is the environment, which is facilities, colleagues, how you are treated, and the administrative burden. Personally, I have never been driven by what I am paid (that is different to how much I can earn, or raise to carry out my work), but more by what an organisation enables me to create and achieve, and so I'll go where I am supported to create and achieve most. Of course, being in such a place helps my earning potential. Ultimately, that is all down to successful Institutional management, rather than salaries handed out per se. (You'd have to pay me a lot to be at a sh1t place.)

Edited August 14, 2015 by LiveinHope

[moesasji]

(You'd have to pay me a lot to be at a sh1t place.)

....and that is the crux. The financial pressures In the current research funding scheme doesn't make the UK particularly attractive for those that don't work in fancy areas.

[LiveinHope]

....and that is the crux. The financial pressures In the current research funding scheme doesn't make the UK particularly attractive for those that don't work in fancy areas.

Agree, but that just shows how poor the management is, all they know is how to pay a lot, and not how create an attractive environment, which will cost less in individual salaries in the long run, and may even create employment.

Actually, I don't think there is a sum that would make or bribe me stay at a sh1t place. At best, a high salary would only persuade me to stay until management wised-up that I was doing my own thing in any case, and sacked me.

Edited August 14, 2015 by LiveinHope

[moesasji]

Agree, but that just shows how poor the management is, all they know is how to pay a lot, and not how create an attractive environment, which will cost less in individual salaries in the long run, and may even create employment.

We are indeed on the same line here. Fully agreed.

[Marshmellow]

My personal impression is that it is a reflection of this being an international market. If you don't pay enough good academics in good universities are bought away and we see this happening pretty often...and as the salary scale is fixed this is a likely outcome.

Any junior researchers now just get undercut by cheap labour.

One Professor said to me (with a straight face), after I complained that the office wasn't professional enough: 'they have more right to work here than you because they get paid less'.

I was working in an office and in 2 months had 10 different 'guest' researchers in it - all from non-EU countries. They brought their own laptops, weren't directly employed by the university, and had basically no contact with the professor. They just sat and wrote papers and basically lived in the office - ate there, slept there, everything. They might as well have just stayed in their own country and conversed with the 'professor' via email.

I was embarrassed to invite masters students to my office who I was supervising.

When I complained I had 6 people in the office which in my opinion should fit no more than 3. There were people sharing desks - one on one side, one directly opposite on a 50cm wide desk.

[Timak]

....and that is the crux. The financial pressures In the current research funding scheme doesn't make the UK particularly attractive for those that don't work in fancy areas.

I expect with the cuts to the science budget the research will be even more concentrated on the fancy areas. And the £25k research assistants/post docs and £40k group leaders can rent bedrooms for £700 a month.

[LiveinHope]

Any junior researchers now just get undercut by cheap labour.

One Professor said to me (with a straight face), after I complained that the office wasn't professional enough: 'they have more right to work here than you because they get paid less'.

I was working in an office and in 2 months had 10 different 'guest' researchers in it - all from non-EU countries. They brought their own laptops, weren't directly employed by the university, and had basically no contact with the professor. They just sat and wrote papers and basically lived in the office - ate there, slept there, everything. They might as well have just stayed in their own country and conversed with the 'professor' via email.

I was embarrassed to invite masters students to my office who I was supervising.

When I complained I had 6 people in the office which in my opinion should fit no more than 3. There were people sharing desks - one on one side, one directly opposite on a 50cm wide desk.

When I did my PhD I was in an office that was ~17m2 and housed 8, how does that compare to your situation ? Basically one desk per person, the wall space above and a share in the 4 drawer filing cabinet that separated the desks. Of course we didn't have iPads The one phone was next to my desk, so I was also the receptionist.

Did they really 'live' in the office ?

[sPinwheel]

market based due diligence from lenders

If only

[porca misèria]

When I did my PhD I was in an office that was ~17m2 and housed 8, how does that compare to your situation ? Basically one desk per person, the wall space above and a share in the 4 drawer filing cabinet that separated the desks. Of course we didn't have iPads The one phone was next to my desk, so I was also the receptionist.

Did they really 'live' in the office ?

Was it in a basement, whose windows (at the top of the room) were ground level to a car park where many drivers ignored the polite notice asking them to park forwards (rather than point their exhausts straight at us)?

[LiveinHope]

Was it in a basement, whose windows (at the top of the room) were ground level to a car park where many drivers ignored the polite notice asking them to park forwards (rather than point their exhausts straight at us)?

No, just a building that resembled closely, the set of Prisoner Cell Block H

[debtlessmanc]

All to do with perceptions, some uk universities have now got the American system and call all academics, associate, assistant, full professor etc (eg warwick). I suspect it is all very confusing to some.

Funny how these things matter to some, I know two staff who have left to take up a chair at much inferior institutions on no more money just to call themselves "professor"

Its easy to grumble about "profs" but to be honest since I got my chair of the nutcase junior staff I have had to deal with- you couldn't make it up. Whilst I still do a full teaching load and don't shirk that or writing research cases etc. the main problem I have with fellow profs are the one who have in practice have retired, but fully intend to wander in occasionally draw £70k a year and do any jobs they are given really badly so that get taken off them.

A charade, like so much else.

Perhaps I am too tough, but most Professors I knew I would have classed no higher than Senior Lecturer, and only a few as Reader.

All to do with perceptions, some uk universities have now got the American system and call all academics, associate, assistant, full professor etc (eg warwick). I suspect it is all very confusing to some.

Funny how these things matter to some, I know two staff who have left to take up a chair at much inferior institutions on no more money just to call themselves "professor"

Its easy to grumble about "profs" but to be honest since I got my chair, my experiences managing nutcase junior staff, the things I have had to deal with- you couldn't make it up. Whilst I still do a full teaching load and don't shirk that or writing research cases etc. the main problem I have with fellow profs are the one who have in practice have retired, but fully intend to wander in occasionally draw £70k a year and do any jobs they are given really badly so that get taken off them.

Edited August 14, 2015 by debtlessmanc

[LiveinHope]

All to do with perceptions, some uk universities have now got the American system and call all academics, associate, assistant, full professor etc (eg warwick). I suspect it is all very confusing to some.

Funny how these things matter to some, I know two staff who have left to take up a chair at much inferior institutions on no more money just to call themselves "professor"

Its easy to grumble about "profs" but to be honest since I got my chair, my experiences managing nutcase junior staff, the things I have had to deal with- you couldn't make it up. Whilst I still do a full teaching load and don't shirk that or writing research cases etc. the main problem I have with fellow profs are the one who have in practice have retired, but fully intend to wander in occasionally draw £70k a year and do any jobs they are given really badly so that get taken off them.

The fact that Professor matters so much to a certain type made me never seek the title as it's merit seemed to be devalued, present company excepted. While it affected my earnings admittedly, money isn't everything. Many assume I have the title and I'm pretty sure I have dealt with all you have experienced and picked up the pieces from others. I often said the department was more like "care in the community". So much so that I planned my leaving over a couple of years and recently, left. Not fancying another frying pan I'm giving 'independence' a go. I'll see whether it pans out in a couple of years. May work out, but it may not !!

Edited August 14, 2015 by LiveinHope

[interestrateripoff]

The fact that Professor matters so much to a certain type made me never seek the title as it's merit seemed to be devalued, present company excepted. While it affected my earnings admittedly, money isn't everything. Many assume I have the title and I'm pretty sure I have dealt with all you have experienced and picked up the pieces from others. I often said the department was more like "care in the community".

You mean the friendly sociopath?

[debtlessmanc]

You mean the friendly sociopath?

Lots of those, I've encountered a few really disturbing cases.

One colleague made the national newspapers a few years back after he bullied a colleague who resigned and won a tribunal against the uni

When I asked him how he felt about the media coverage that had exposed his unpleasant bullying personality, he replied " the coverage was a nonsense, they didn't even get the letters after my name right.."

[justthisbloke]

It seems to me that universities have greatly increased student numbers but the number of full time perm academics/lecturers hasn't increased that much. Instead, the equation is made to balance by using lots of, effectively, casual labour - low paid, insecure phds and post-phds on a zero hours part time hourly paid basis.

It's created a horrible two-tier structure at the lower levels - with the PTHPs doing the same job as perm lecturers for about a sixth of the pay and none of the benefits.

The fact that there are always enough PTHPs illustrates how overpaid the perm guys are - the market would clear at a much lower rate. Of course, the perms don't even have the decency to recognise that they're on a good gig and things have changed since they served their time in sh1t roles. There are so few perm jobs and so many PTHPs there's no pyramid of progression anymore.

(I'm nothing to do with unis - just observing second hand).

[Marshmellow]

I will try to do what some poster said above - try to set up my own independent research centre

I either succeed in that or I quit

No way I am competing against the entire 3rd world for 1 and 2 year contracts eternally

Not sure about what posters were saying that you could earn 'big money' depending on the area - the salaries at universities seem to be all fixed pay scales, at least in the EU, no matter what project you work on

[moesasji]

Not sure about what posters were saying that you could earn 'big money' depending on the area - the salaries at universities seem to be all fixed pay scales, at least in the EU, no matter what project you work on

If you are a research "star" that brings in millions in research funding per year than you have a lot of negotiation power. Keep in mind that there is a pretty wide spread in the salaries paid for professors.

[LiveinHope]

I will try to do what some poster said above - try to set up my own independent research centre

I either succeed in that or I quit

Be easier if you have first established your reputation. Use the system to do so, and for as long as you can tolerate it. During that time focus upon being productive and doing what you want, while keeping the employer satisfied by fulfilling their minimum requirements. Of course, you go the extra mile and will be more productive and bring in more money than colleagues, just make sure the extra mile pays back to you. I wouldn't advocate this strategy for a well run private company where you will see the benefits of your labours and slackers wouldn't survive. But in many universities the fruits of your efforts will be spread around, some will benefit due to favouritism and some will get a free ride, and all due to poor middle management. I must admit I was at a bad one, but as I was always covered my salary and research costs in full from external sources I felt I was just using it as a laboratory and office, rather than 'belonging' to it emotionally (so avoiding the depressing consequences that the other good staff seem to feel).

Edited August 15, 2015 by LiveinHope

[Killer Bunny]

or just make student loans a completely private affair, with tighter market based due diligence from lenders and sponsors?

The elephant in the room on this one is that academic salaries would also plummet, of course.

Yes. Oxbridge would soar to to £30k pa. 'Auchtermuchty' wld plummet to £1k pa.

Yes it would be brilliant if uni exec salaries fell.

[debtlessmanc]

If you are a research "star" that brings in millions in research funding per year than you have a lot of negotiation power. Keep in mind that there is a pretty wide spread in the salaries paid for professors.

Many wealthy academics-yes inventors from spin outs/companies but others by winning prizes, the Nobel comes with 1m euros others are more generous. check out FOI requests from Uni's not unusual to find 10-50 academics at any Russell group on more than £150k pa.

Edited August 15, 2015 by debtlessmanc

[Killer Bunny]

Its easy to grumble about "profs" but to be honest since I got my chair, my experiences managing nutcase junior staff, the things I have had to deal with- you couldn't make it up.

Examples? Do tell.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Killer Bunny

[justthisbloke]

If you're a full time lecturer, say, how do you do external work?

I know someone who's billed out by the uni for £10k a talk (half a day's work). Yet receives a bog stand lecturer's salary (30k or something pa). And the stuff she's presenting is all her work - much of predating her employment (created while a student).

I've tried to persuade her to get some legal/commercial/IP advice.

ETA: and most of the requests come direct to her - via her personal email or phone.

Edited August 15, 2015 by justthisbloke