Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Sign in to follow this  
tomandlu

In My Dreams...

Recommended Posts

One of the problems we face is that a conservative government is unlikely to target bankers and landowners to pay for the debt and deficit. A radical left-wing government, who nevertheless are able to face up to the economic reality would have been a better option IMHO.

Of course this was impossible. A labour win would, IMHO, have been a disaster, even if possible.

However.... what if Brown had gone to the polls back in 2007 and lost? The Tories come in (who would have done little different in dealing with the crisis IMHO), Brown dumped by his party, and then the crisis hits.

Then what? Fantasy football time, the bankers are blamed, and the labour party becomes more radical again, and wins the 2011/12 election on a platform that's basically squeeze the banks and the landowners before squeezing the middle-classes. In addition, a new broom, plus the novelty of being elected during a financial crisis rather than a boom forces the party into a more realistic stance regarding public expenditure.

A load of nonsense, I know, but I can't help but feel that, in many ways, the tories are the worst party to have in charge given the nature of this crisis...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There certainly is an arguement for the following:

Nationalising the ability to create money

A tax on wealth, capital gains and land rather than on income

Whenever anything like this is suggested the "class war" rubbish comes out but the established system is pretty much broken worldwide.

Edited by Timak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are Gordon Brown and I claim my £5.

Well, only if I'm a masochist - in my dream Brown goes mad after being dumped by his party and is shot after he disembowels Blair in a cannibalistic orgy. I'm a high tax, high level of public services kinda guy - my main caveat is that the services need to be efficient and fair (hence my conversion to a citizen's wage).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, only if I'm a masochist - in my dream Brown goes mad after being dumped by his party and is shot after he disembowels Blair in a cannibalistic orgy. I'm a high tax, high level of public services kinda guy - my main caveat is that the services need to be efficient and fair (hence my conversion to a citizen's wage).

We can at least agree on the subject of Brown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the problems we face is that a conservative government is unlikely to target bankers and landowners to pay for the debt and deficit. A radical left-wing government, who nevertheless are able to face up to the economic reality would have been a better option IMHO.

Of course this was impossible. A labour win would, IMHO, have been a disaster, even if possible.

However.... what if Brown had gone to the polls back in 2007 and lost? The Tories come in (who would have done little different in dealing with the crisis IMHO), Brown dumped by his party, and then the crisis hits.

Then what? Fantasy football time, the bankers are blamed, and the labour party becomes more radical again, and wins the 2011/12 election on a platform that's basically squeeze the banks and the landowners before squeezing the middle-classes. In addition, a new broom, plus the novelty of being elected during a financial crisis rather than a boom forces the party into a more realistic stance regarding public expenditure.

A load of nonsense, I know, but I can't help but feel that, in many ways, the tories are the worst party to have in charge given the nature of this crisis...

Your scenerio could never happen. One of the fundamental problems of the present British left is that they can only read politics through the lense of social phenomenon. As such, they have no insight or understanding of economics, business or high finance.

The reason for this is the kinds of people that influence and make up the British left and the Labour party at present. On the one side, you have the champagne socialists and liberal lefties -- the upper middle class voices, usually either public or grammar school educated with Oxbridge degrees, who are basically the torchholders for modern Fabianism, and whom have no exposure to realities other than their privileged own. It is impossible to over-state just how many of these types fed into and influenced the recent Labour administration. On the other side, you have the peculiar modern breed of trade unionist whose priorities seem to be a strange blend of patronage politics and socially-tinged obsessions.

In my years of experience of working within British Labour and British left circles during the Blair/Brown years, I rarely met anyone that I regarded to be a practical political thinker or operator whose concerns were primarily for the advance, health, wealth and benefit of the mass of ordinary Brits. Instead, the world of New Labour, in my view, seemed to be made up of a load of Hooray Henrys and Henriettas that would have been Tories in the 1980s occupying the same political space as a smattering of trade union brusers. The British left in a wider sense, the hard left etc, was just as bad -- most had middle to upper middle class backgrounds and the amount of vocal agitators that had gone to public schools used to piss me off no end.

I met hundreds of people during my time in this field and I can count the numbers of people who went to comprehensive schools on one hand. Again, hardly anyone within the British left and the Labour party comes from a business or commercial background, and hardly anyone had any recent experience or knowledge of a working class or lower middle class environment.

As such, the Labour party and most of the British left simply do not understand money, commerce, business or economics. Instead they understand the middle class professions because that is what they do themselves -- all lawyers, academics, journalists and PPE-ers who'd gone into left-leaning think tanks. Even when you looked at the background of key players who had business backgrounds, they were often inherited enterprises. Money has just always been there for a lot of these people.

All I can say is just do not look to the Labour party as being able to do anything about the financial crisis, regardless of who gets turfed out. They simply have no idea, and will have no idea until shopkeepers, SME owners, economists, accountants, plumbers and self-employed market stall traders start to join the party and become Labour candidates -- and that is simply not going to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.... New Labour, in my view, seemed to be made up of a load of Hooray Henrys and Henriettas that would have been Tories in the 1980s ....

Phew. I'm glad its not just me that thinks that. :D Our new PM seems to me to be a bit left of the old one. Something I welcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, only if I'm a masochist - in my dream Brown goes mad after being dumped by his party and is shot after he disembowels Blair in a cannibalistic orgy. I'm a high tax, high level of public services kinda guy - my main caveat is that the services need to be efficient and fair (hence my conversion to a citizen's wage).

If services were efficient you wouldn't need the high taxes.

What is a citiizen's wage - sounds suspiciouly like getting paid to sit on your **** in front of the TV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we need are In opposition are Pragmatists. What we have are Ideologues.

Personally i dont mind big spending so long as its honest and transparent

ie. paid for through taxes, not by screwing the young through borrowing, as the Nulab economic doctrine seems to work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we need are In opposition are Pragmatists. What we have are Ideologues.

Personally i dont mind big spending so long as its honest and transparent

ie. paid for through taxes, not by screwing the young through borrowing, as the Nulab economic doctrine seems to work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As such, the Labour party and most of the British left simply do not understand money, commerce, business or economics. Instead they understand the middle class professions because that is what they do themselves -- all lawyers, academics, journalists and PPE-ers who'd gone into left-leaning think tanks. Even when you looked at the background of key players who had business backgrounds, they were often inherited enterprises. Money has just always been there for a lot of these people.

All I can say is just do not look to the Labour party as being able to do anything about the financial crisis, regardless of who gets turfed out. They simply have no idea, and will have no idea until shopkeepers, SME owners, economists, accountants, plumbers and self-employed market stall traders start to join the party and become Labour candidates -- and that is simply not going to happen.

I wish those you mention above would join in any party! As you say, they are very scarce in parliament. What you have to ask though, is why are the left in the UK so inept at running the economy? There has yet to be a succesful period of Labour government in economic terms. They did not leave the country better economically once since 1924. They have had some good moments in other areas, but that cannot make up for causing Britain to be endlessly and needlessly economically challenged by ludicrous tax and spend policies. Their creation and financing by unions is a good part of the problem. Blair was supposed to be the 'middle of the road' moderate Labour man. But he was only a front man for Brown, who gradually ruined our economy for many years to come by simple unadulterated profligacy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your scenerio could never happen. One of the fundamental problems of the present British left is that they can only read politics through the lense of social phenomenon. As such, they have no insight or understanding of economics, business or high finance.

The reason for this is the kinds of people that influence and make up the British left and the Labour party at present. On the one side, you have the champagne socialists and liberal lefties -- the upper middle class voices, usually either public or grammar school educated with Oxbridge degrees, who are basically the torchholders for modern Fabianism, and whom have no exposure to realities other than their privileged own. It is impossible to over-state just how many of these types fed into and influenced the recent Labour administration. On the other side, you have the peculiar modern breed of trade unionist whose priorities seem to be a strange blend of patronage politics and socially-tinged obsessions.

In my years of experience of working within British Labour and British left circles during the Blair/Brown years, I rarely met anyone that I regarded to be a practical political thinker or operator whose concerns were primarily for the advance, health, wealth and benefit of the mass of ordinary Brits. Instead, the world of New Labour, in my view, seemed to be made up of a load of Hooray Henrys and Henriettas that would have been Tories in the 1980s occupying the same political space as a smattering of trade union brusers. The British left in a wider sense, the hard left etc, was just as bad -- most had middle to upper middle class backgrounds and the amount of vocal agitators that had gone to public schools used to piss me off no end.

I met hundreds of people during my time in this field and I can count the numbers of people who went to comprehensive schools on one hand. Again, hardly anyone within the British left and the Labour party comes from a business or commercial background, and hardly anyone had any recent experience or knowledge of a working class or lower middle class environment.

As such, the Labour party and most of the British left simply do not understand money, commerce, business or economics. Instead they understand the middle class professions because that is what they do themselves -- all lawyers, academics, journalists and PPE-ers who'd gone into left-leaning think tanks. Even when you looked at the background of key players who had business backgrounds, they were often inherited enterprises. Money has just always been there for a lot of these people.

All I can say is just do not look to the Labour party as being able to do anything about the financial crisis, regardless of who gets turfed out. They simply have no idea, and will have no idea until shopkeepers, SME owners, economists, accountants, plumbers and self-employed market stall traders start to join the party and become Labour candidates -- and that is simply not going to happen.

I cannot fault a word of what you have written - it sums up the Labour Party perfectly.

A loyal voter, supporter and member of the Labour Party, Fabian Society and Co-operative Party since 1980 I left it five years ago as I saw it for what it had become (or maybe for what it always really was).

From the Blair years onwards I was shocked to find how many activists veered to totalitarian policies detached from any consideration of costs or long term financial sustainability - so much was based on spin and image - and buying votes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the problems we face is that a conservative government is unlikely to target bankers and landowners to pay for the debt and deficit. A radical left-wing government, who nevertheless are able to face up to the economic reality would have been a better option IMHO.

Of course this was impossible. A labour win would, IMHO, have been a disaster, even if possible.

However.... what if Brown had gone to the polls back in 2007 and lost? The Tories come in (who would have done little different in dealing with the crisis IMHO), Brown dumped by his party, and then the crisis hits.

Then what? Fantasy football time, the bankers are blamed, and the labour party becomes more radical again, and wins the 2011/12 election on a platform that's basically squeeze the banks and the landowners before squeezing the middle-classes. In addition, a new broom, plus the novelty of being elected during a financial crisis rather than a boom forces the party into a more realistic stance regarding public expenditure.

A load of nonsense, I know, but I can't help but feel that, in many ways, the tories are the worst party to have in charge given the nature of this crisis...

Thats the thing I never understand with the right - they whinge about the free market principles and people being entreprenurial and hardworking- but when it comes down to it they always look after the interests of the bankers, tax cuts for the rich, landowners - where is the incentivising mr average on 35K a year whose tax is going to rise to pay for the bailouts- while at the same time there looking to cut taxes for inheritance tax for millionaires. Whilst I can see from an overall point of view they are trying to make things better - where is the fairness.

Edited by the coming storm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....What you have to ask though, is why are the left in the UK so inept at running the economy? ...

The same reason the right are so inept. They want to please the people that vote for them. No-one wants to pay any tax but everyone wants a handout. The right give tax cuts to the rich the country cannot afford, the left give handouts to the bottom half the country cannot afford. It all works fine as long as the magic money tree carries on growing. If things get a bit tough you can pull a fast one. Flog off the family silver or persuade the oiks to borrow millions on ever rising house prices. Eventually the magic money tree dies and the fast one solutions dry up. That's where we are now. The bill has arrived and we will argue who pays for it. The party of the rich are in power and doing their best to ensure the rich don't pay. Voted in by the poor.

Same as it ever was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 261 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.