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Why Do Permies Hate Contractors So Much?

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In my corporate travels - one constant is many permies seem to have a pathlogical hatred for contractors. I have never understood why they hate contractors so much. In my time I have been both permanent and contract. its almost like many contractors are treated like second class citizens. Now were not talking about some temp in the doing an admin job, were talking specialists in their field who for whatever reason have choosen to be a contractor and have worked in the company for many years, many longer than the "Permanent Staff". The question is whats driving it, is the management making the permanent staff keep their distance from contractors.

Contractors use the excuse, its because were on mega bucks and its jealousy - and whilst there are many contractors earning big money - there are lots of other contractors earning somewhat more then permanent but not 3 times - when you add it up, combined with job insecurity, lack of opportunities to travel, lack promotion opportunities, lack of training, being dumped with the stuff the permies don't want to do - are they really that better off, in fact your maybe worse off.

I suppose you can see that permies feel that they are basically working much harder, at home in the evening, extra responsiblities - and that contractors are getting an easy ride for their money and that basically they are not good enough to be permanent, whilst the staff have performance appraisals and more politics to deal with. I'd day most decent contractors could be permanent if they wanted - but don't want to face up to crushing office politics, and just want to do reasonable days work for money.

Some of these staff act like the money going to a contractor is coming of their pocket, and what business is it what anyone else is earning - they are not the managers of the company so why should they be concerned. Maybe contractors are just an easy target, or misfits who pretty good at what they do, but just don't fit into permanent job mindset.

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I suppose you can see that permies feel that they are basically working much harder, at home in the evening, extra responsiblities - and that contractors are getting an easy ride for their money and that basically they are not good enough to be permanent, whilst the staff have performance appraisals and more politics to deal with. I'd day most decent contractors could be permanent if they wanted - but don't want to face up to crushing office politics, and just want to do reasonable days work for money.

Some of these staff act like the money going to a contractor is coming of their pocket, and what business is it what anyone else is earning - they are not the managers of the company so why should they be concerned. Maybe contractors are just an easy target, or misfits who pretty good at what they do, but just don't fit into permanent job mindset.

you answered your own question there :)

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you answered your own question there :)

yes but - thats just a perception that permanent staff are working harder. Many contractors have to take on extra work as well. while staff pretty much stick to their job spec to the letter. You can't just assume because their a contractor that their lazy, companies are littered with permanent staff clinging on for the pension. Its too expensive to get rid of them - why not hate some of their permanent colleagues

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Permanent staff often know nothing of corporation tax, job insecurity, advertising, accountancy charges, employer's NI, IR35, etc, and think it's easy money.

But they still haven't got the balls to run their own business.

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Permanent staff often know nothing of corporation tax, job insecurity, advertising, accountancy charges, employer's NI, IR35, etc, and think it's easy money.

But they still haven't got the balls to run their own business.

Oh come can't think of too many contractors who you would describe "running their own Business" More like a disguised employee using a limited company pay less tax

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It is mainly jealousy. But without any need. Any permie can become a contractor asap if they want.

An example. VERY large Scottish based Bank. IT department. Few days ago most of the staff were offered VR if they wanted it. They havent got enough offers !! :o

Now I know about this place a year ago. Almost every single permie was giving it 'Contractors have it so easy, no hassle, so much money blah blah'.

Now they are given the option of perhaps 15-15k TAX FREE and then to go contracting - and what happens ?

Most of them shit it !! It really is pathetic.

Everyone that asks me about contracting ? I ask them one simple question - "If in a year you end up with 6 months and don't earn a single penny could you handle it ?"

If the answer is yes then go contracting. If the answer is no then get over it and keep your quite decent permie job.

There are good things to both options. I don't know why so many can't see this.

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Oh come can't think of too many contractors who you would describe "running their own Business" More like a disguised employee using a limited company pay less tax

How dare you !!

Ok most contractors are somehwere between the 'disguised employee' and a person running their own company.

However - the simple fact is most employees shit themselves at even the 'Semi disguised employee' option.

Different strokes for different folks. And all that.

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In my experience it has often because management have brought contractors in to do the exciting new projects... normally because they are in technologies where the existing staff don't have experience. They do the blue sky stuff then leave the permies to clear up the mess / do the maintenance slog etc.

A more sensible management approach can often be to bring in contractors to do the maintenance while the permanent staff are trained up - but I've not seen that so often!

Mind you, most contractors complain that they can't keep their skills up to date (or only a great expense).

(I just realised that it's nearly 40 years since I wrote my first program - in BASIC at school)

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yes but - thats just a perception that permanent staff are working harder. Many contractors have to take on extra work as well. while staff pretty much stick to their job spec to the letter. You can't just assume because their a contractor that their lazy, companies are littered with permanent staff clinging on for the pension. Its too expensive to get rid of them - why not hate some of their permanent colleagues

I'm on the side of the contracter, both my dad and my boyfriend are, contractors are the ones with the balls :):D

They are the ones that have taken control of their own lives and live on the crest of the wave.

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This has been discussed ad nauseum on these forums and elsewhere since time immemorial.

I propose a fresh camel toe thread instead!

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...

There are good things to both options. I don't know why so many can't see this.

It's definitely a temperament thing. I also think that good developers recognise each other regardless of the employment angle.

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Contractors are often bought in on new, greenfield and interesting projects. They'll get paid well for the privilege, endure minimal politics, and generally feel and act with less obligation. They'll then leave the project once the best bits are over & the systems are in place etc.

This all must be a real kick in the balls for a committed permie who lives for the chance to step up and pick up responsibility on new key projects.

I'm a contractor and the 'us and them' feeling is definetly there. Its nice to laugh at organisational ineptitude with the other contractors and know that it's not really our problem, but at the same time, a bit of me misses being part of something and working towards some common goal with people in the same boat.

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Guest theboltonfury

Permanent staff often know nothing of corporation tax, job insecurity, advertising, accountancy charges, employer's NI, IR35, etc, and think it's easy money.

But they still haven't got the balls to run their own business.

But they don't run their own business at all. Nothing like it.

Many have umbrellas to do their figures and someone else finding them work. Tough business to run that.

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This has been discussed ad nauseum on these forums and elsewhere since time immemorial.

I propose a fresh camel toe thread instead!

yeah but you know, you can't resist the urge to attack permies,

permies honestly are mostly like miserable spoilt children

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But they don't run their own business at all. Nothing like it.

Many have umbrellas to do their figures and someone else finding them work. Tough business to run that.

Yeah the next contractor that say they run their own business ask them

how many staff do they employ

do they bid for projects they work on,

can they charge the client one price rather than an hourly rate,

and do they choose where they go to work.

thats more like a indpeendent consultant - most contractors are nothing like that.

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good developers don't attack others, they support each other, good developers are agile and understand you need to be flexible. Permies don't hate contractors, bad developers hate contractors and other developers because the know they know there flaws but cant admit to it. Bad contractors attack other developers aswell. Oh and a good development house, or company doesn't need contractors (or only need them very occasionally) as it is agile enough to manage without.

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This has been discussed ad nauseum on these forums and elsewhere since time immemorial.

I propose a fresh camel toe thread instead!

Agreed.

majthreegirls_wideweb__470x3930.jpg

It's definitely a temperament thing. I also think that good developers recognise each other regardless of the employment angle.

Yep. You either don't mind possibly being out of work or you do. Simple as that. Depending on your thoughts the decisions is pretty simple.

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All this envy. Remind yourself, we pay no National insurance, zero, zip nada. We also make money by charging vat and keeping some of this vat ourselves. A made a thousand this year doing that.

Personally Id sack most of you, as the vast majority of the off topic dregs are on here all day. When is it you are supposed to be working exactly?

As to the HPC, who cares. Ill buy cash in a years time, whatever prices do. :-)

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Oh come can't think of too many contractors who you would describe "running their own Business" More like a disguised employee using a limited company pay less tax

Then you are demonstrating that your skill set doesn't include business management, and you are not cut out to run a business.

A contractor is usually obliged to meet a target for deliverables - or become liable for failure to meet that target. That's a business risk. Otherwise the contractor will be subject to IR35 taxation rules - treating the business turnover as personal income, before deduction iof business expenses, income tax, NI and employers NI. And because the turnover may be higher, it is more likely to be taxed at a higher rate.

Paid holidays? Forget it.

Employer's contribution to your pension fund? Forget it.

Sick pay? Forget it.

Your employer may well train you regularly, no doubt paying any travel and accomodation and your salary while you are training. This can cost thousands a year, particulalry in a fast-moving industry like IT or telecomms. A contractor needs to have the training before they apply for the job, so their training does not meet the criteria for being tax-deductible. Instead, they pay for their training out of their taxed income. No-one else is paying their travel, subsistence or salary during training.

Don't underestimate the beaurocracy, especially after a decade of new Labour's red tape. Don't fall foul of the VAT man or Inland revenue, a mistake can be very expensive in time and money.

Job security? Your employer will keep you on until they have a reason and means to get rid of you - usually with redundancy pay. A contractor will lose their job unless there is a reason to be kept on. Long periods of unemployment have to be factored into the business model; but it's OK if you put aside money for a rainy day.

There's no union protecting contractor's rates. You are competing with everyone else who want's the contract. Rates have fallen about 35% in my sector, but you accept it. Whining about pay, or striking, is not an option. If you don't understand market forces, you shouldn't be running your own business.

Then there's office costs, insurance, legal fees, the hours doing book-keeping, the contracts away from home (with living costs) and so on and so on.

Employees probably don't realise what they cost their employer - about twice in what their salary total is, when all the business costs are taken into account.

When someone thinks there are minimal costs involved in running a business, they merely demonstrate that they have no grasp of business and are not management material.

Why do I do it? Because I'm a specialist, I'm good at what I do and reap the rewards for hard work when I can get it. Between contracts I explore other business opportunities. Publications, training, research, etc.

It's also very entertaining watching office politics as a spectator.

If you think it's easy money, give it a go. Think you can cut it? No, I thought not. Get back to the grindstone.

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Guest theboltonfury

yeah but you know, you can't resist the urge to attack permies,

permies honestly are mostly like miserable spoilt children

I don't have any bias at all. I am neither a permie nor a contractor.

This is usually an IT thing and I'm sure most of us know people in IT and also IT contractors. In my experience of the 5 or 6 IT Contractors I have met via rugby or those who are my customers, they are the sorts who would answer the question 'Have you got the time mate?' with the response 'Mercedes, £500 per day and yes it's a Cartier'

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Yeah the next contractor that say they run their own business ask them

how many staff do they employ

do they bid for projects they work on,

can they charge the client one price rather than an hourly rate,

and do they choose where they go to work.

thats more like a indpeendent consultant - most contractors are nothing like that.

(1) Depends. Usually none.

(2) Of course. Why do you think you are asked for your rate ?

(3) What has that got to do with anything ? Most large companies charge daily/hourly rates as well as a one off cost

(4) Eh ? If you are paid to work by an end client of course you don't choose where you work !! Ridiculous argument.

Anyway - I don't think most contractors are bona fide independent business owners. Then again they er definitely not permies in disguise.

You see I can see both sides of the story. ;)

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Then you are demosntrating that your skill set doesn't include business management, and you are not cut out to run a business.

Ac ontractor is usually obliged to meet a target for deliverables - or become liable for failure to meet that target. that's a business risk.Otherwise the contractor will be subject to IR35 taxation rules - treating the business turnover as personal income,BEFORE deduction iof business expenses, income tax, NI and employers NI. And becuase the turnover may be higher, it is more likely to be taxed at a higher rate.

Paid holidays? forget it.

Employer's contribution to your pension fund? forget it.

Sick pay? Forget it.

Your employer may well train you regularly, no doubt paying travel and accomodation and your salary while you are training. This can cost thousands a year, particulalry in a fast-moving industry like IT or telecomms. A contractor needs to have the training before they apply for the job, so their training does not meet the criteria for being tax-deductible. Insted, they pay for their training out of their taxed income. No-one else is paying travel, subsistence or salary during training.

Don't underestimate the beaurocracy, especially after a decade of new Labour's red tape. Don't fall foul of the VAT man or Inland revenue, a mistake can be very expensive in time and money.

Job security? Your employer will keep you on until they have a reason and means to get rid of you - usually with redundancy pay. A contractor will lose their job unless there is a reason to be kept on. Long periods of unemployment have to be factored into the business model; but it's OK if you put aside money for a rainy day.

There's no union protecting contractor's rates. You are competing with everyone else who want's the contract. Rates have fallen about 35% in my sector, but you accept it. If you don't understand market forces, you shouldn't be running your own business.

Employees probably don't realise they cost their employer about what their salary is when all the business costs are taken into account.

Then there's office costs, insurance, legal fees, the hours doing book-keeping, the contracts away from home (with living costs) and so on and so on.

When someone thinks there are minimal costs involved in running a business, they merely demonstrate that they have no grasp of business and are not management material.

Why do I do it? Because I'm a specialist, I'm good at what I do and reap the rewards for hard work when I can get it. Between contracts I explore other business opportunities. Publications, training, research, etc.

It's also entertaining watching office politics as a spectator.

If you think it's easy money, give it a go. Think you can cut it? No, I thought not.

Hey I have been a contractor off and on for about 8 yrs, using a limited company.

I just mean't that contractors are not running a business in the tradition sense - employing staff, bidding for work, having other areas of income outside their main contract - so what i mean't was they are not that different to an employee.

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Yeah the next contractor that say they run their own business ask them

how many staff do they employ

do they bid for projects they work on,

can they charge the client one price rather than an hourly rate,

and do they choose where they go to work.

thats more like a indpeendent consultant - most contractors are nothing like that.

You don't need any of that to be a business.

You're a small one person business by virtue of the fact that you sell your services for a fee.

You are not an employee, there is no drama, no 360 degree performance reviews, no benefits, no training, no job security, no moral obligation either way.

It's a straight exchange of money for services rendered from one legal entity to another. (They say prostitution is the oldest profession but maybe IT contracting came first?)

I don't think umbrella companies detract from this either. They're a legal and administrative convenience for which you pay a fee. The above still applies.

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  • 201 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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