You Lot Know What The Problem Is

[sam]

Before i start this post, i really am not setting out to offend anyone, and many will think who is this newbie upstart.

You lot really want need to get off your backsides and do something, your arguments about the crisis in housing in the UK is spot on, and the anger is not just on this board, it is everywhere.

Right now there is just a load of hot air, the vested interests are really not bothered about the likes of this board, as long as we are all moaning on here, we are keeping out of trouble.

You have the likes of shelter, debt agencys, there are even probably some good mp's out there who will all band together if it could sort this mess out.

Today, you are all going to talk yet again about oil, interest rates, BTL, inflation, CPI, Debt, VI's, you will draw even more graphs, do yet more calculations.

Look Guys, you have now done all that, you know what the problem is, now lets bin all the talk about what is wrong(you have worked that one out) and do something about.

You are all starting to sound like John Cleese in the Life of Brian, forever having meetings but doing nothing.

There are some really intelligent people on this board, and it does sound like there are a few of you with contacts, stop saying to yourself everday that it is not like the old days when people got of their backsides and protested, so you can you, do something, work together.

Sam

[Ace]

Doing nothing is the most difficult part. ( and basically all that needs to be done )

[Miles Shipside]

My dear chap,you may not be aware but this site is visited regularly by the large estate agents,media,politicians etc etc.

They are scared sh**less by most of the postings I can assure you.

The next wave of redundancies will be from estate agents and if anyone should know,I should.

I'm with HPC all the way,us parasites in the estate agency business have had it too good for too long.

Jobcentre here I come.

[right_freds_dead]

'splitter'

[timetopaythepiper]

This site gave me knowledge. With this knowledge, I have managed to change some people's opinion about what is going on with house prices, and the knock on effect that this is starting to have - less money being spent = more job losses = less money being spent........(I find keeping it very simple works best). These people will then change other people's opinion (they may even find their way to this site!).

I'm sure many people on here have done the same. This has a ripple effect and starts to change sentiment.

The media will start to report more truth when people's sentiment changes. I don't expect the media to do it for us.

[Mr Tickle]

The market will move and do what the market will do, it is not right or wrong.

We cannot influence it, its too big, theres no point getting bitter because the market won't do as you wish.

Make the trend your friend and be patient

[BoredTrainBuilder]

To be quixotic: to tilt at windmills.

[VacantPossession]

This extremely useful an inspired website is not just a comfort zone for the tiny minority of UK aware of what is about to happen, it is also becoming a significant influence on those previously not aware of the impending bubble burst.

Various people subscribing to this site are indeed "doing something" about it. They publish statistics, write to journalists, post on media forums, influence their friends (the hardest part), and take all the steps they can to educate those around them.

However this site is but a minnow compared with the enormous power of the press and broadcasting media who, almost all of them, are party to spin and vested interests.

It is therefore a very difficult nut to crack, but the tide is turning, slowly.

Of course it's all very well saying it's time to shut up and do something - but when you think about that is the same as doing nothing, unless you have a cunning plan of action yourself!

VP

[DonnieDarker]

What the original post suggests is starting a war that can never be won.

I - like most of the good people here - have better things to do than waste time on people who are too dumb to do basic arithmetic.

Call me right-wing but I couldn't give a f*ck about people who are not willing to help themselves. The consumer-debt-ridden culture that we live in is a plague that needs exterminating.

It took a great fire to rid London of its plague of rats in 1667. Bring on the crash!

[AteMoose]

Ive recently met people who have found this website themselves and have looked at the boards, the daily discussion is important. Some of the boards members have produced leaflets, stiickers promoting the site, other board members have taken part in gurilla marketting and promoted the site on lampposts, posted leaflets at estate agents, trains, through peoples letter boxes or just talked to people.

Last night i was talking to a friend of mine who bought a house for 39k before the boom, bought her ex partner out (after intrest rates went down and got a great deal) and has 70k equity on a property worth 140k today. She has just had a remorgage meeting yesterday, and found out she would struggle to afford 70k debt on her own even though she earns 25k as a teacher.... She was talking last night how she could see the point of owning a house, being tied down and was thinking of getting the equity out of the house and selling up, and moving into shared accomodation or leaving the country...

More and more people are noticing that is impossible for FTBers to buy houses, and impossible to move up the housing ladder because of low inflation. Sentiment is changing in the general population, and this forum certainly helps and informs...

Edited August 26, 2005 by moosetea

[Dancing Bear]

imo the members on this board have done pretty much nothing to turn the tide or have major influence, because they can't - and shouldn't be.

the housing/financial markets are just playing themselves out and we are all watching it happen.

while i've been harping on about this to anyone who would listen for the last two years, and feeling frustration at alone in this, it has been good finally finding that there are others who have been thinking alone the same lines about the state of this country.

surely the point of being a forward thinker is to spot the trends and manouvre yourself to gain most in the long run because you have seen what others haven't?

i feel that's the point of this site, not being a bunch of bolshies. if no-one wanted to listen before then they can be happy in their smug ignorance until the sh1t flies and i'll be quite happy to say i told you so.

[Culpability Brown]

What the original post suggests is starting a war that can never be won.

I - like most of the good people here - have better things to do than waste time on people who are too dumb to do basic arithmetic.

Call me right-wing but I couldn't give a f*ck about people who are not willing to help themselves. The consumer-debt-ridden culture that we live in is a plague that needs exterminating.

It took a great fire to rid London of its plague of rats in 1667. Bring on the crash!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tell it like it is Donnie!

[PulpFiction]

Welease Woger

[theChuz]

I am doing something about it - im looking after myself. I follow your sentiment completly there Donnie.

I'm working hard... very hard infact Saturday and Sunday whenever i can too... I'm putting my money in the right places, apart from my talk on HPC at work im running completely below radar.

[IP Newcomer]

Call me right-wing but I couldn't give a f*ck about people who are not willing to help themselves. The consumer-debt-ridden culture that we live in is a plague that needs exterminating.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do worry about them (but I'm also horribly right wing) but there are surely more deserving people out there than indebted FTBs in the first world.

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

Me and Mrs Crashed are helping ourselves by ignoring fundamentalist consumerism and trying to save as much as we can waiting for the eventual crasheroo.

However, there's a sentiment on this board that the market will cycle round and all we need do is wait. I think this is rubbish.

In good times and bad everyone in a modern country should have a decent home for an affordable rate. To be honest, this is even more fundamental than even health and education. In france, a large percentage of Council Housing is rented only to people with work contracts - the complete opposite of here, where you have make yourself appear as hopeless a case as possible. We would have loved to rent for close to half the private rate like our friends in Paris do. Heck, as the public sector housing makes up a significant sector, it helps to keep private rents down.

Further, we only have one 'housing stock'. Whether private, public or whatever it's in the national interest to use this in the best way possible and government policies should aid this. Making the housing stock a plaything for BTL speculators, second home lotus eaters, and el cheapo housebuilders is not the best use. Second home owners and buy to letters should be prohibitively taxed in the same way damaging things like fags are to lessen the ability of bubbles to form.

Tax-dodgiong landlords should be a police priority. In the grand scheme of things enabling them to build empires tax-free is far more damaging than if some kid pinches some tshirts from Primark.

Banks should be more heavily regulated and statutory limits on borrowing should be introduced. After all, most mortgage debt is effectively new money lent into existence. Should the money supply be left to the commercial whims and greed of the big banks?

The inflation measure should include more housing costs INCLUDING house price rises. Most people have to face these housing costs, so why aren't they there? Sure, you don't buy a houses every five minutes, but then neither do you buy a washing machine (part of the basket of goods in the inflation measure'. With housing part of offical inflation the damage can be seen more clearly for what it is. The current joke inflation 'low inflation' measures are only good for preserving the wealth of the rich who need not do very much to preserve the majesty of their stash.

Edited August 26, 2005 by CrashedOutAndBurned

[Once in a lifetime]

I'm with HPC all the way,us parasites in the estate agency business have had it too good for too long.

Jobcentre here I come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then you're the finest man that ever lived.

[Smell the Fear]

Me and Mrs Crashed are helping ourselves by ignoring fundamentalist consumerism and trying to save as much as we can waiting for the eventual crasheroo.

However, there's a sentiment on this board that the market will cycle round and all we need do is wait. I think this is rubbish.

In good times and bad everyone in a modern country should have a decent home for an affordable rate. To be honest, this is even more fundamental than even health and education. In france, a large percentage of Council Housing is rented only to people with work contracts - the complete opposite of here, where you have make yourself appear as hopeless a case as possible. We would have loved to rent for close to half the private rate like our friends in Paris do. Heck, as the public sector housing makes up a significant sector, it helps to keep private rents down.

Further, we only have one 'housing stock'. Whether private, public or whatever it's in the national interest to use this in the best way possible and government policies should aid this. Making the housing stock a plaything for BTL speculators, second home lotus eaters, and el cheapo housebuilders is not the best use. Second home owners and buy to letters should be prohibitively taxed in the same way damaging things like fags are to avoid lessen the ability of bubbles to form.

Tax-dodgiong landlords should be a police priority. In the grand scheme of things enabling them to build empires tax-free is far more damaging than if some kid pinches some tshirts from Primark.

Banks should be more heavily regulated and statutory limits on borrowing should be introduced. After all, most mortgage debt is effectively new money lent into existence. Should the money supply be left to the commercial whims and greed of the big banks?

The inflation measure should include more housing costs INCLUDING house price rises. Most people have to face these housing costs, so why aren't they there? Sure, you don't buy a houses every five minutes, but then neither do you buy a washing machine (part of the basket of goods in the inflation measure'. With housing part of offical inflation the damage can be seen more clearly for what it is. The current joke inflation 'low inflation' measures are only good for preserving the wealth of the rich who need not to very much to preserve the majesty of their stash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My sentiments exactly.

[North London Rent Girl]

it's all very well saying it's time to shut up and do something

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To be fair, VP, Sam wasn't saying 'shut up and do something', more 'keep ranting but do something as well'.

I've been trying to find out if there's an organisation that lobbies for tenants' welfare - no joy so far. What looked like a housing website put me onto the Housing Corporation, which is something run by the ODPM. Its slogan is 'Affordable Homes, Strong Communities' - how hilarious is that, given that it's sponsored by this government?! They're avin a larf. Someone else kindly suggested I get in touch with Shelter, but that's not what I want to do. Someone else on this forum has suggested an organisation that lobbies for affordable housing. I'm surprised there aren't such things and it would be an excellent idea to set one up and a very constructive use of time for the next couple of years while prices fall. I don't particularly want to spend my time obssessing about buying.

That said, of course, who has the time and resources to do this? Given the moronically un-nuanced and binary nature of political debate, we would be set up as an interest opposite and equal to the VIs who want to e.g. keep lanlords' obligations at a minimum and rents at a maximum - in the same sort of way as Friends of the Earth are set up as being just as interested a party as BP or Exxon. So I think it's an excellent idea, Sam, but I don't know who's going to have the energy and time to do it.

It is surprising, though, that there are HPCers who seem to be positively hostile to the idea of getting together and doing something. I regard myself as something of a misanthrope but you guys leave me standing! I'll take you at your word that it's because you're a bunch of right-wing basstids.

Sam, you'd have to admit that the people who set HPC up have already done more than their bit.

Who did set it up, by the way? I want to know. Does anybody know them? Was it DrB?

[Marina]

So you're all just going to sit and here and let things play out your way. Hope for your sake they do.

What idiots the poll tax rioters were. They could have saved themselves all that rioting energy by just waiting. Or could they? Would the poll tax have been changed if nobody had rioted. This has nothing to do with markets but everything to do with pointing out that if people make a nuisance of themselves you can get government policy changed.

If you leave things to themselves - there is a pretty good chance this thing (high house prices) will never die. Even the government are legislating to keep the housing market going. All the vested interests and that includes people in the market already (the majority of the population), the government and the huge multi-national banks are lined up against you.

Now I am not saying the market is not due to correct. But it might not correct in anywhere like the way you guys hope and need it to. What if prices go down 5% and there are enough well paid FTBs to keep the market ticking over. Isn't that, to some extent, what is happening now?

I don't like many aspects of this society. One of them is middle class people buying 5 buy to lets on borrowed money and pricing a whole generation out of property ownership.

I believe if you want this to change you are going to have to do something about it. Otherwise there is a real danger the market will just stagnate for 10 years while the affordability issue plays itself out. Can you wait that long?

Up to you. Too old to care. I've got out. I am concerned for my children though.

[North London Rent Girl]

Marina

You are completely right and honestly I'm completely with you on this - have just been nodding my way through your posts on the other thread about an affordable housing campaign. But most people are like me, we're joiners, not starters. Look at HPC itself? It was there and we all joined in. And you're saying that you're past caring so you're ultimately saying the same thing!!

Praps a thread should be started explicitly inviting interest in a campaign. That's kind of what smell the fear's is but perhas it needs a more rallying kind of a title. Bags not me post it though (see what I mean?!).

All the best

[oracle]

Before i start this post, i really am not setting out to offend anyone, and many will think who is this newbie upstart.

You lot really want need to get off your backsides and do something, your arguments about the crisis in housing in the UK is spot on, and the anger is not just on this board, it is everywhere.

Right now there is just a load of hot air, the vested interests are really not bothered about the likes of this board, as long as we are all moaning on here, we are keeping out of trouble.

....not so,we ARE doing something about it.The very fact this site exists is case in point.this isn't just a self-help group,there are plenty of curios visitors who come here and for their sake I hope they learn that the majority of people are extremely susceptible to coercion by the media.

Ask yourself who REALLY benefits from persuading you to get 5 plasma tellies....not you,you could happily do with one and spend a fifth of the money....it's in the interests of some of the parts of society to try and deplete your bank balance as quickliy as possible,and getting you to "keep up with the jones'",is one of the best ways of doing it.....nobody likes to feel out of place and there is ALWAYS a pecking order.The trick these guys use is to persuade you that buying their products will enable you to jump the queue.

[Marina]

Marina

You are completely right and honestly I'm completely with you on this - have just been nodding my way through your posts on the other thread about an affordable housing campaign. But most people are like me, we're joiners, not starters. Look at HPC itself? It was there and we all joined in. And you're saying that you're past caring so you're ultimately saying the same thing!!

Praps a thread should be started explicitly inviting interest in a campaign. That's kind of what smell the fear's is but perhas it needs a more rallying kind of a title. Bags not me post it though (see what I mean?!).

All the best

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, no, no. I am not past caring. But I am a bit past it.

[oracle]

nice post marina but I have to disagree.

THE BANKS LOVE INDEBTED PEOPLE!!!!!

they can charge them a fortune and it's increasingly difficult to escape,so why should banks care whether HP's fall?

they WILL recoup the money they lent one way or another,and will come after the outstanding debt relentlessly.if you lose your job....tough.

..in fact the more in debt you are,the more they charge!!!!,so it's in their interest to sell to you at the top and watch you slide down!!!...then they have you by the goolies!

[VacantPossession]

Me and Mrs Crashed are helping ourselves by ignoring fundamentalist consumerism and trying to save as much as we can waiting for the eventual crasheroo.

However, there's a sentiment on this board that the market will cycle round and all we need do is wait. I think this is rubbish.

In good times and bad everyone in a modern country should have a decent home for an affordable rate. To be honest, this is even more fundamental than even health and education. In france, a large percentage of Council Housing is rented only to people with work contracts - the complete opposite of here, where you have make yourself appear as hopeless a case as possible. We would have loved to rent for close to half the private rate like our friends in Paris do. Heck, as the public sector housing makes up a significant sector, it helps to keep private rents down.

Further, we only have one 'housing stock'. Whether private, public or whatever it's in the national interest to use this in the best way possible and government policies should aid this. Making the housing stock a plaything for BTL speculators, second home lotus eaters, and el cheapo housebuilders is not the best use. Second home owners and buy to letters should be prohibitively taxed in the same way damaging things like fags are to lessen the ability of bubbles to form.

Tax-dodgiong landlords should be a police priority. In the grand scheme of things enabling them to build empires tax-free is far more damaging than if some kid pinches some tshirts from Primark.

Banks should be more heavily regulated and statutory limits on borrowing should be introduced. After all, most mortgage debt is effectively new money lent into existence. Should the money supply be left to the commercial whims and greed of the big banks?

The inflation measure should include more housing costs INCLUDING house price rises. Most people have to face these housing costs, so why aren't they there? Sure, you don't buy a houses every five minutes, but then neither do you buy a washing machine (part of the basket of goods in the inflation measure'. With housing part of offical inflation the damage can be seen more clearly for what it is. The current joke inflation 'low inflation' measures are only good for preserving the wealth of the rich who need not do very much to preserve the majesty of their stash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As always....another intelligent and enlightened post by Mr Crash. Excellent stuff!

VP