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If ever driver also had to get up to the standard to pass the motorcycle test to get a car licence, they'd be a lot of very well trained drivers and a drastic reduction in smashes

of course, they'd be a reduction of about 60% on the roads too!

Are you a biker by any chance :)

As a car driver, if ever I have a car overtake me that I hadn't noticed in my mirrors, that's my bad driving - not looking at the road around me and not being aware of it by failing to maintain a running picture of the changing conditions.

There was a recent ad on TV about looking out for motorcyclists. I don't ride a bike but I guess it's more dangerous, and probably more difficult to drive well than a car is.

However, if bikers adhered to the speed limit and recognised that car drivers don't have the same degree of visibility in their steel boxes with windows in order to see them coming at speed from any direction (particularly in urban areas), I reckon they would be involved in far less really serious accidents. Bikes are the only things which seem to appear literally from nowhere at sometimes jaw breaking speeds. Help us to help you :)

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Are you a biker by any chance :)

As a car driver, if ever I have a car overtake me that I hadn't noticed in my mirrors, that's my bad driving - not looking at the road around me and not being aware of it by failing to maintain a running picture of the changing conditions.

There was a recent ad on TV about looking out for motorcyclists. I don't ride a bike but I guess it's more dangerous, and probably more difficult to drive well than a car is.

However, if bikers adhered to the speed limit and recognised that car drivers don't have the same degree of visibility in their steel boxes with windows in order to see them coming at speed from any direction (particularly in urban areas), I reckon they would be involved in far less really serious accidents. Bikes are the only things which seem to appear literally from nowhere at sometimes jaw breaking speeds. Help us to help you :)

Used to ride, not any more - got too fat and lazy and gave it up before I got taken down.

The thing about bikers, is that yes they go fast, but they practice defensive driving and 'what if' scenarios every second on the road... if car drivers did this there would be hardly any accidents

When you're whipping past a car, you already have a plan A, B and maybe C as well. I can appreciate that it spooks some drivers, but trust me, you don't need to do anything, just let it happen and we'll have it in hand. The risk is ours, we're not expecting you to have to change your driving lines so we can squeeze through

As for sticking to the limit - v dangerous in my experience. Car drivers power up behind you, not realising that your stopping distance is about half theirs - so safest thing is just to keep going faster than them, so they can't keep up! At least you don't get surprises from behind "ooo-errrr missus"

Generally, Plod understand this... and i'd estimate that they allow bikes a bit more leniency.... certainly in my experience anyway

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

muhahaha

prison for not transacting in paper currencies next

link

The more money the state takes from citizens' pockets, the less money those citizens have to spend in the mall, and to save for a pension or healthcare procedure.

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Guest Steve Cook

Why is it disgusting ?

The state needs the money.

No-one is forcing anyone to break the law.

I'd rather they raised the money by fining people willingly breaking the law than by taxing law abiding people for the work they do.

If anything raising funds in such a way is less disgusting than demanding it out of the pay packets earnt with peoples sweat.

I have no sympathy. If you don't want to pay the "Driving so fast it's a danger to other road users tax" then stay under the speed limit. If you still decide to speed, you knew the rules, you pay the penalty if caught and lower my taxes for me.

Tell me....

Do you believe, in principle, that any law enacted by a state is, by definition a legitimate law and so any citizen has, by definition, a duty to obey it without exception?

If not, then what is the criteria by which you would make a judgement that a given law should not be obeyed?

Edited by Steve Cook

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

Tell me....

Do you believe, in principle, that any law enacted by a state is, by definition a legitimate law and so any citizen has, by definition, a duty to obey it?

No exceptions?

If not, then what is the criteria by which you would make a judgement that a given law should not be obeyed?

Order in our society is maintained by the contract between state and citizen. Effectively, we agree to obey the law, as it is our law. When socialists bloat the state to the degree that they have in Britain, the state starts to think it is the law and all kinds of problems arise.

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Guest Steve Cook

Order in our society is maintained by the contract between state and citizen. Effectively, we agree to obey the law, as it is our law. When socialists bloat the state to the degree that they have in Britain, the state starts to think it is the law and all kinds of problems arise.

When the state ceases to be a servant and, instead, assumes the mantle of master, it's time to act.

That time is now.

Also, this has got f*ck all to do with socialism. You need to let go of these constraining modes of thought.

There is a ruling elite and there is the rest of us. Everything else is details.

The state is, and always has been, merely the interface between us and them . Sometimes they have hidden behind the rhetoric of the "word of God", sometimes the "divinity of kings". More latterly they have hidden behind the ideological excuse of "capitalism", "communism" etc.

Hitler, Stalin, "Socialism", "the Free Market"....

They're all the same

Wakey Wakey.....

Edited by Steve Cook

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

When the state ceases to be a servant and, instead, assumes the mantle of master, it's time to act.

That time is now.

The problem you have is that this is not just happening in Britain. All across the West the states are becoming too big and centralised. The Left have had control of the states economically, culturally and politically for a generation, and the end result is massive debts and deficits, the destruction the family, and massively increased surveillance of the citizenry.

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When the state ceases to be a servant and, instead, assumes the mantle of master, it's time to act.

That time is now.

Let's give the coalition the benefit of the doubt.

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The more money the state takes from citizens' pockets, the less money those citizens have to spend in the mall, and to save for a pension or healthcare procedure.

Didn't I read a few weeks ago that the average American had savings of only $1,000 or $2,000? Sounds like a great way to push people over the edge. Could it be that they're trying to create an underclass?

As I understand it, if you get into a situation where you have no money things can spiral out of control pretty easily, the psychological impact can lead to physical illness, relationships break up (no one wants a loser in the USA)etc.

Losing the all important last $1,000 to a fine!! Now that is really life changing money.

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

Didn't I read a few weeks ago that the average American had savings of only $1,000 or $2,000? Sounds like a great way to push people over the edge. Could it be that they're trying to create an underclass?

As I understand it, if you get into a situation where you have no money things can spiral out of control pretty easily, the psychological impact can lead to physical illness, relationships break up (no one wants a loser in the USA)etc.

Losing the all important last $1,000 to a fine!! Now that is really life changing money.

What you have to bear in mind with America is its federal system. If CA or VA enact this kind of punitive tax/fines system, then you could get an exodus of people leaving the state and going to a less insolvent state. For more, see John Steinbeck, among others!

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Guest Steve Cook

The problem you have is that this is not just happening in Britain. All across the West the states are becoming too big and centralised. The Left have had control of the states economically, culturally and politically for a generation, and the end result is massive debts and deficits, the destruction the family, and massively increased surveillance of the citizenry.

This has got f*ck all to do with socialism. You need to let go of these constraining modes of thought.

There is a ruling elite and there is the rest of us. Everything else is details.

The state is, and always has been, merely the interface between us and them . Sometimes they have hidden behind the rhetoric of the "word of God", sometimes the "divinity of kings". More latterly they have hidden behind the ideological excuse of "capitalism", "communism" etc.

Hitler, Stalin, "Socialism", "the Free Market"....

They're all the same

Wake up...

Edited by Steve Cook

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I dunno, I bet 100mph in a modern car on a clear motorway is relatively safer than bating along at 50mph in a Ford Anglia on some dodgy A road in the 1950's, some cars used to rely on cable brakes! Not that I advocate blasting past your local school at a ton before all you do gooders get on to me.

It's not just about speed alone, it's when you also add in factors like being pi$$ed, drugged, tired, unalert to road conditions, unlicenced, uninsured or driving a car that hasn't passed an MOT in this millennia; then it becomes fatal.

Not to mention driving FAR TOO CLOSE TO THE CAR IN FRONT.

A few yrs ago I was on the M3 just after heavy rain, in blinding late afternoon sunshine. I had only just been wondering at the idiots zooming past in the fast lane, far too fast and close for the conditions. I'll never know exactly what happened, maybe the front car braked slightly, but the car just ahead of me in the fast lane couldn't possibly stop in time. Literally as I passed it, it didn't just hit the car in front, it mounted it at high speed and crushed it.

If it had swerved into me instead, I'd have been part of what turned into a horrific pile-up, too. All because a few morons couldn't slow down a bit and keep - their - distance on a motorway still swimming with rain.

I owe my guardian angel one, that's for sure.

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

This has got f*ck all to do with socialism. You need to let go of these constraining modes of thought.

There is a ruling elite and there is the rest of us. Everything else is details.

The state is, and always has been, merely the interface between us and them . Sometimes they have hidden behind the rhetoric of the "word of God", sometimes the "divinity of kings". More latterly they have hidden behind the ideological excuse of "capitalism", "communism" etc.

Hitler, Stalin, "Socialism", "the Free Market"....

They're all the same

Wake up...

All of this talk about ruling elites and Bilderbergs strongly obfuscates the issue and stops us seeing what this is really all about. I'll be clear when I say I do not subscribe to the theory that says we are all minions working on farms for the ruling elite. Plenty of people born into poverty get right to the top, and indeed some of them end up in the Bilderberg Group. There will always be nepotism and cronyism and corruption, but the point I make is that the elite is transient and temporal, and you could be part of it if you wanted,

Meanwhile, political ideologies do iffer different contracts between the state and the citizenry, and there has been no real conservativism in Britain or America for a generation. By conservatism I mean small state, small government, low tax, low intrusion, free-market principles, isolationist foreign policies, etc. Instead we have had a massive progressive agenda rolled out and this has got us into massive debt, elevated trash culture to high culture and bloated the state beyond description.

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All of this talk about ruling elites and Bilderbergs strongly obfuscates the issue and stops us seeing what this is really all about. I'll be clear when I say I do not subscribe to the theory that says we are all minions working on farms for the ruling elite. Plenty of people born into poverty get right to the top, and indeed some of them end up in the Bilderberg Group. There will always be nepotism and cronyism and corruption, but the point I make is that the elite is transient and temporal, and you could be part of it if you wanted,

Meanwhile, political ideologies do iffer different contracts between the state and the citizenry, and there has been no real conservativism in Britain or America for a generation. By conservatism I mean small state, small government, low tax, low intrusion, free-market principles, isolationist foreign policies, etc. Instead we have had a massive progressive agenda rolled out and this has got us into massive debt, elevated trash culture to high culture and bloated the state beyond description.

The content of the elite varies over time. However, that content tends to be drawn from a relatively small pool. Take a look at the names of the families who control the vast majority of the wealth in this country. They have remained the same names for generations. Take a look at the names of the major landowners in this country. Over 45% of the land in the UK is owned by the direct descendants of William of Normandy and his men.

Your argument is akin to citing a lottery winner as evidence that everyone can be millionaires. In the real world in which people actually have to live, such an assertion is meaningless.

Finally, the problems of state expansionism you mention are not a function of one political ideology or another. They are a function of states.

It's what they always do, in the end. Without exception.

Edited by Steve Cook

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The content of the elite varies over time. however, it tends to be drawn for a relatively small pool. Take a look at the names of the families who control the vast majority of the wealth in this country. They have remained the same names for generations. Take a look at the names of the major landowners in this country. Over 45% of the land in the UK is owned by the direct descendants of William of Normandy and his men.

Your argument is akin to citing a lottery winner as evidence that everyone can be millionaires. In the real world in which people actually have to live, such an assertion meaningless.

Finally, the problems of state expansionism you mention are not a function of one political ideology or another. They are a function of states.

It's what they always do, in the end.Without exception.

Have you got a source for that 45% fugure? If true that is very interesting. Also, I disagree about what "states" do. There is no such thing as a state remember, only people and ideas.

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Have you got a source for that 45% fugure? If true that is very interesting. Also, I disagree about what "states" do. There is no such thing as a state remember, only people and ideas.

A state is an organisational and administrative structure put in place by individuals.

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Tell me....

Do you believe, in principle, that any law enacted by a state is, by definition a legitimate law and so any citizen has, by definition, a duty to obey it without exception?

No.

States can pass illegitimate laws for a whole host of reasons. Even if they are legitimate, I don't think citizens have to obey it without exception. Only that they should obey it or be prepared to accept the consequences if caught.

If not, then what is the criteria by which you would make a judgement that a given law should not be obeyed?

There are lots.

Is the law democratic.

Is it symmetrical as to inherent characteristics.

Is it immoral, in my opinion, to obey the law.

Is it moral, in my opinion, to break the law.

Do I have a chance to leave the country and reject the government/law

Am I prepared to accept the consequences for not obeying it.

There are lots of reasons laws may, in my opinion, be illegitimate.

What is your point ?

All I am saying is that given we have such a law and given the state has to raise revenue then there is nothing inherently wrong in raising it in fines on people who break the law. Indeed, so long as people breaking the law do so completely voluntarily and could easily not break the law and still pursue their lives, doing so is by most measures better than raising it from people using a compulsory levy on things like their income or entrepreneurship.

I'd rather the money came from people who chose to engage in an activity knowing there may be a fee than it come from people who have no choice and must be forced to pay irrespective of their choice.

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Have you got a source for that 45% fugure? If true that is very interesting. Also, I disagree about what "states" do. There is no such thing as a state remember, only people and ideas.

I have a number of books on the subject. I'll hunt them out and send you details. However, a good place to start would be the following link...

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/1066/4od

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Guest Steve Cook

No.

States can pass illegitimate laws for a whole host of reasons. Even if they are legitimate, I don't think citizens have to obey it without exception. Only that they should obey it or be prepared to accept the consequences if caught.

There are lots.

Is the law democratic.

Is it symmetrical as to inherent characteristics.

Is it immoral, in my opinion, to obey the law.

Is it moral, in my opinion, to break the law.

Do I have a chance to leave the country and reject the government/law

Am I prepared to accept the consequences for not obeying it.

There are lots of reasons laws may, in my opinion, be illegitimate.

What is your point ?

All I am saying is that given we have such a law and given the state has to raise revenue then there is nothing inherently wrong in raising it in fines on people who break the law. Indeed, so long as people breaking the law do so completely voluntarily and could easily not break the law and still pursue their lives,  doing so is by most measures better than raising it from people using a compulsory levy on things like their income or entrepreneurship.

I'd rather the money came from people who chose to engage in an activity knowing there may be a fee than it come from people who have no choice and must be forced to pay irrespective of their choice.

You have a quaint view of the state and our relationship to it and I know there is nothing I can say to you here that will change that. You are only likely to change you view if and when your own personal experiences force it. I suspect you wont have long to wait.

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The problem you have is that this is not just happening in Britain. All across the West the states are becoming too big and centralised. The Left have had control of the states economically, culturally and politically for a generation, and the end result is massive debts and deficits, the destruction the family, and massively increased surveillance of the citizenry.

The left have been in control of Britain and the US for a generation? When did that happen?

Socialist countries seem to have lower debts and deficits than the Anglo-Saxon economies.

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You have a quaint view of the state and our relationship to it and I know there is nothing I can say to you here that will change that. You are only likely to change you view if and when your own personal experiences force it. I suspect you wont have long to wait.

?

Why is my view quaint ? I suspect thats shorthand for "I don't want to discuss this as I expected you to say something else".

I have been arrested, and charged, for crimes I committed, that I do not personally consider immoral.

I have seen family members go to jail, and friends and relatives receive criminal records, for crimes that I consider crimes and others I do not consider real crimes.

I am aware the criminal justice system isn't all Rosseain (?) Social Contracts. I am aware it is often unfair and it is often administered unjustly.

That doesn't change the fact that if they define rules that everyone is aware of, and then raise neccesary revenue by fining people who break those rules when they did not have to this is (in my opinion) better than if they just forced the same amount out of everyone compulsarily.

At least with speeding fines you have the choice. You are in control. Keep to the limit and you will never lose a penny.

This has got to be better than a situation where you are not, and you have money taken from you simply for minding your own business and earning it.

If they have to raise £100, I'd prefer they did it from fines than from taxes.

Edited by Spin Bowler

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

I have a number of books on the subject. I'll hunt them out and send you details. However, a good place to start would be the following link...

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/1066/4od

Thanks - I'll look into this. I had read that most land was NT or agricultural, so if this is true it is a pretty serious stat. It would depend on what the land was used for though - private ownership is one thing but is it used for agriculture? It would still be leased I suppose.

I suppose this is inevitable in a nation that was a feudal hierarchy for so many centuries. LIke Mark Twain once said - buy land, they're not making it any more!

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No-one is forcing anyone to break the law.

You can't say that to the Great British Motoring Lobby!

Their sense of outrage and entitlement makes Redwood's CGT campaign look decent and honest! :o

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

The left have been in control of Britain and the US for a generation? When did that happen?

Socialist countries seem to have lower debts and deficits than the Anglo-Saxon economies.

In terms of the debt/deficit issue, the point I make is that the Anglo-Saxon countries are not conservative, so why would they have lower debts/deficits? Look at the degree to which Bush expanded the state and state spending, look at his ideological crusade wars, none of this is conservative. If anything, Clinton ran a more fiscally conservative budget than any of the nominal conservatives immediately before or since, and that was just because he didn't have war to fight.

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  • 201 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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