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The U.s.s Liberty

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Was the attack on this American ship carried out by the Iranians or North Korea?

No, this deliberate attack, carried out on 8th June 1967 (today is the 43rd anniversary) was perpetrated by America's so-called ally, Israel.

The attack was coordinated by air and by sea, leaving 31 dead Americans and 171 wounded.

Some of the sailors manned the life rafts, thinking the ship was about to sink. The Israelis attacked the life rafts, an act which is undeniably a war crime.

Senator Adlai Stevenson III in 1980, his last year as a United States Senator from Illinois, invited Jim Ennes to his Senate office for a private, two hour meeting to discuss the USS Liberty attack and coverup. Following the private meeting, Ennes was invited back the next day to discuss the attack with members of Stevenson's staff, along with members of the staff of Senator Barry Goldwater and members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.

In that meeting, staff members told Ennes that they found his story convincing, but that they would recommend to both senators that they not pursue an investigation because an investigation would only antagonize Israeli interests while "nothing good could come of it." Goldwater accepted that staff recommendation. Stevenson did not. Instead, Stevenson called a news conference in which he announced that he was convinced that the attack was deliberate and that the survivors deserved an investigation. He would, he said, spend the remaining few weeks of his Senate term attempting to arrange for an inquiry.

Almost immediately, the government of Israel contacted the White House and offered to settle the outstanding $40 million damage claims for $6 million, an amount equal to one dollar for each Jewish victim of the Holocaust. Vice President Walter Mondale quickly agreed to that offer just before Christmas while Congress and President Carter were on vacation. The Department of State followed immediately with a press release, reported on the front page of the New York Times, which announced, "The book is now closed on the USS Liberty."

Indeed, from that point on, it was impossible to generate any congressional interest in the Liberty at all.

http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/israeli_false_flag_attack_%20on_USS_Liberty.htm

Remember the Liberty on this anniversary of this infamous attack.

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Was the attack on this American ship carried out by the Iranians or North Korea?

No, this deliberate attack, carried out on 8th June 1967 (today is the 43rd anniversary) was perpetrated by America's so-called ally, Israel.

The attack was coordinated by air and by sea, leaving 31 dead Americans and 171 wounded.

Some of the sailors manned the life rafts, thinking the ship was about to sink. The Israelis attacked the life rafts, an act which is undeniably a war crime.

http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/israeli_false_flag_attack_%20on_USS_Liberty.htm

Remember the Liberty on this anniversary of this infamous attack.

good post

Crime against humanity

there is a never ending list of crimes, more msm tries to cover it up more comes out in the open.

USS Liberty

it hasn't even spared it biggest donner, main reason of the attack it seemed was to frame arabs but got caught red handed, same with 9/11, and many other terror activities worldwide in time it will come out in the open.

Not really surprising what those Israeli scums are capable of, you just need to see who it treats its neighbours.

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main reason of the attack it seemed was to frame arabs

How do you reach that conclusion ? The aircraft that attacked were clearly identified as Israeli, and the patrol boats were flying the Israeli flag. After the attack, they then informed the US embassy of the attack.

Of course there are questions to be answered re the USS Liberty, but to claim it to be a false flag attack and an attempt to blame the arabs is quite ridiculous.

Then of course you try to blame Israel for 9/11 and all the worlds ills.

And as for how it treats its neighbours, I seem to remember that Israels "peaceful" neighbours launched a joint coordinated attack 1 day after the state's creation, with the sole intention of wiping it off the face of the Earth.

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Have taken off my tfh and am donning the kevlar helmet.

Edit: To elucidate, I have long maintained that Israel is more Nazi than Hitler's Germany. They will do anything they deem necessary to further their own ends, be it against the Palestinians or their best ally, the USA.

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good post

Crime against humanity

there is a never ending list of crimes, more msm tries to cover it up more comes out in the open.

USS Liberty

it hasn't even spared it biggest donner, main reason of the attack it seemed was to frame arabs but got caught red handed, same with 9/11, and many other terror activities worldwide in time it will come out in the open.

Not really surprising what those Israeli scums are capable of, you just need to see who it treats its neighbours.

I now firmly believe you write these posts from a cave in the Afghan mountains. How's the dialysis going?

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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311#

BBC documentary on the sinking. US Aircraft carrier with strike aircraft within range ordered to 'stand down' by the President. Where have we heard of that before then?

Israeli pilots asking for confirmation to attack 'friendly ship'

If things like this dont make you realise the world is controlled behind the scenes by powerful elites and what we are told on the news and in text books is a pack of lies, then there is no hope for you.

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Have taken off my tfh and am donning the kevlar helmet.

Edit: To elucidate, I have long maintained that Israel is more Nazi than Hitler's Germany. They will do anything they deem necessary to further their own ends, be it against the Palestinians or their best ally, the USA.

yep

joining the dots

lets see, Mossad using fake British, EU & other countries passports the assissinated a businessman in Dubai, Interpol is after them. Act of terrorism, condamned by international law.

9/11 - ARE AMERICANS THE VICTIMS OF A HOAX?

The time has come to stop using the flag as a blindfold, to stop waving our guns and our gods at each other, to take a close look at the facts which have emerged from the attacks on the World Trade Towers and to recognize the very real possibility, indeed probability, that We The People are the victims of a gigantic and deadly hoax.

In a normal terrorist event, the terrorists cannot wait to take credit, in order to link the violence to the socio-political intent of the terrorist organization. Yet the prime suspect in the New York Towers case, ex(?) CIA asset Osama Bin Laden (whose brother was one of George W. Bush's Texas business partners), has issued only two statements regarding the September 11th attacks, and both of those are denials of any involvement.

Huge problems are emerging in the official view of events. It's known that the United States was planning an invasion of Afghanistan long before the attacks on the World Trade Towers. Indeed the attacks on the World Trade Towers perfectly fit the timetable of an invasion by October stated by US officials just last summer.

The 19 names of suspected hijackers released by the FBI don't point to Afghanistan. They come from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, United Arab Emirates; all across the middle east without a focus in any one region. Indeed, even as the FBI was admitting that its list of 19 names was based solely on identifications thought to have been forged, Saudi Arabia's Foreign Minister Prince Saudi Al-Faisal insisted that an investigation in Saudi Arabia showed that the 5 Saudi men were not aboard the four jet liners that crashed in New York, Virginia and Pennsylvania on September 11. "It was proved that five of the names included in the FBI list had nothing to do with what happened," Al-Faisal told the Arabic Press in Washington after meeting with U.S. President George W. Bush at the White House. A sixth identified hijacker is also reported to still be alive in Tunisia, while a 7th named man died two years ago!

The 19 names of suspected hijackers released by the FBI don't even appear on the passenger lists of the hijacked planes. Check it out for yourself - here's the full list of alleged hijackers along with the passenger manifests.

CNN reported that the men who hijacked those aircraft were using phony IDs, using the names of real people still living in Arab nations in the middle east.

In another development, the BBC is reporting that the transcript of a phone call made by Flight Attendant Madeline Amy Sweeney to Boston air traffic controls shows that the flight attendant gave the seat numbers occupied by the hijackers, seat numbers which were NOT the seats of the men the FBI claimed were responsible for the hijacking!

FBI Chief Robert Mueller admitted on September 20 and on September 27 that at this time the FBI has no legal proof to prove the true identities of the suicidal hijackers. Yet in the haste to move forward on the already planned war in Afghanistan, our government and the FBI (which does not have the best record for honesty in investigations to begin with, having been caught rigging lab tests, manufacturing testimony in the Vincent Foster affair, and illegally withholding/destroying evidence in the Oklahoma Bombing case) are not taking too close a look at evidence that points away from the designated suspect, ex(?) CIA asset Osama Bin Laden.

In particular, the FBI, too busy harassing political dissenters to find spies in its midst, the long rumored mole inside the White House, or plug leaks in high-tech flowing to foreign nations, has willfully and criminally ignored the implications of some vital pieces of information the FBI is itself waving around at the public.

We are being told that this crack team of terrorists, able to breeze past airport security as if it wasn't there, wound up leaving so much evidence in its wake that the bumbling Inspector Clouseau (or the FBI) could not fail to stumble over it. The locations where the terrorists supposedly stayed are so overloaded with damning materials that they resemble less a crimes scene, and more a "B" detective movie set, with vital clues always on prominent display for the cameras.

Yet another problem lies with the described actions of the hijackers themselves. We are being told on the one hand that these men were such fanatical devotees of their faith that they willingly crashed the jets they were flying into buildings. Yet on the other hand, we are being told that these same men spent the night before their planned visit to Allah drinking in strip bars, committing not just one, but two mortal sins which would keep them out of Paradise no matter what else they did. Truly devout Muslims would spend the day before a suicide attack fasting and praying. Not only does the drinking in strip bars not fit the profile of a fanatically religious Muslim willing to die for his cause, but the witness reports of the men in the bars are of men going out of their way to be noticed and remembered, while waving around phony identifications.

Because of the facts of the phony identifications, we don't really know who was on those planes. What we do know is that the men on those planes went to a great deal of trouble to steal the identities of Muslims, and to make sure those identities were seen and remembered, then to leave a plethora of planted clues around, such as crop dusting manuals, and letters in checked baggage (why does a terrorist about to die need to check baggage?) that "somehow" didn't get on the final, fatal, flight.

Fake terror is nothing new. According to recently released files, our government planned Operation NORTHWOODS to stage phony terror attacks against American citizens in the wake of the Bay Of Pigs, to anger Americans into support for a second invasion of Cuba. The plan was spiked by JFK. If our government has ever actually carried out such plans to stage phony terror attacks, the documents have remained classified. But given the reality of Operation NORTHWOODS, or the manner in which FDR maneuvered Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, one cannot rule out the possibility that, once again, the people of the United States are being lied to by their own government, to manufacture consent for a war of invasion already being discussed with other nations the previous summer.

It is also quite possible, indeed likely, that the United States is being spoofed by a third party to trigger a war. It has happened before. According to Victor Ostrovsky, a defector from Israel's secret service, Mossad, Israel decided to mount a false flag operation designed to further discredit Libya, and provoke the US to attack an Arab nation. A transmitter loaded with pre-recorded messages was planted in Tripoli, Libya, by a Mossad team.

The `Trojan Horse' beamed out fake messages about Libyan-authorized bombings and planned attacks that were immediately intercepted by US electronic monitoring. Convinced by this disinformation that Libya was behind the 1986 bombing of a Berlin disco in which a US soldier died, President Ronald Reagan ordered massive air attacks on Libya, including an obvious- and illegal (under US law) attempt to assassinate Qadaffi himself. Some 100 Libyan civilians were killed, including Qadaffi's two year old daughter. Libyan officials had no idea why they were attacked.

It is worth remembering the motto of the Mossad is, "By way of deception, thou shalt do war."

Whether they were involved in the attacks or not, it cannot be doubted that Israel has benefited from the attacks in New York. While world attention is focused on what the US will do in Afghanistan, Israel has escalated its attacks against Palestinians towns. Israel has repeatedly tried to claim that Palestinians were involved in the New York attacks, hoping to bury the Palestinian cause under the rubble of the World Trade Towers.

Because of the faked IDs and stolen identities, we don't really know who planned the World Trade Towers attacks. We only know who they wanted us to blame.

And we know that the United States has been tricked in the past into bombing someone who did not deserve the attack, and that those who were bombed then embarked on what from their point of view was justified retaliation that culminated over Lockerbie. And while bombs were falling and planes were crashing, Israel was laughing at us that we had been so easily fooled into bombing Israel's targets for them.

Are we being hoaxed again, by Israel, or by our own government, or by both? It's impossible to rule that out. Right now there are a lot of people who want war. Oil companies want Afghanistan's petroleum products. Our corporations want "friendlier" markets. The CIA wants all that opium. And all those war-mongers, with all their greed and agendas, will not hesitate in the least to pour your tax dollars and your children's blood all over Afghanistan, to get those "friendlier" markets, oil, and opium.

Because of the vested interests at work here, American citizens must, more than at any other time in recent history, rely on themselves to decide what is happening in our nation. Too many of those who purport to report the "truth" to us are eager to grab more tax money and more children to pour into a war of invasion, poised at a region which has swallowed up every army that has tried to conquer it since the time of Alexander The Great.

And one more thing. Take a good look at the map of Eurasia and plot out where the United States has military deployments. They march in a straight line through the middle of Eurasia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenia, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan.

The United States is prepared to cut the Russian Federation off from the oil rich middle east, and to control transportation routes from China and India into the Middle East. When Russia realizes that this is the real agenda, that's when "Dubya Dubya Three" will really get going!

POSTSCRIPT: Looks like the cat is out of the bag. See http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/08/17401.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hoax.html

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yep

joining the dots

lets see, Mossad using fake British, EU & other countries passports the assissinated a businessman in Dubai, Interpol is after them. Act of terrorism, condamned by international law.

You are the internet nutter, and I claim my £5

btw, if you want to be taken seriously on a forum with a membership that is mainly UK based, you should stop posting links to Pravda :lol:

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just for AThirdWay,

An Israeli, former IDF solider now living in the uk (just like you I assume)

Jewish Ideology and World Peace by Gilad Atzmon

Monday, June 7, 2010

" …then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy.” (Deuteronomy 7:1-2)

"…do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the Lord your God has commanded you…” (Deuteronomy 20:16)

I am here to announce as loud as I can, there is no need for any ‘International’, ‘impartial’ or ‘independent’ inquiry into the latest Israeli massacre on the high sea. Though the Israeli opposition to such an inquiry is there to suggest that the Israelis have much to hide, the truth of the matter is actually deeper. If you want to grasp what underlies the Israeli deadly barbarism all you have to do is open the Old Testament.

Though it is certain that there is no ethnic or racial continuum between the Biblical Israelites and the Khazarians who lead the Jewish state and its army, the similarities between the murderous enthusiasm described in Deuteronomy and the current string of Israeli lethal actions cannot be denied. Israel is a murderous society not because of any biological or racial lineage with its imaginary ‘forefathers’. Israel is deadly because it is driven by a fanatical tribal Jewish ideology and fueled by a psychotic merciless Biblical poisonous enthusiasm.

The Jewish State is beyond the law. It doesn’t follow any recognised universal value system either. In recent years Israel flattened Lebanon (2006) and left more than 3000 civilians dead, it managed to shell an UNRWA shelter with white phosphorus (2009) and left Gaza with 1500 fatalities most of them women, children and elders, earlier this year it assassinated in Dubai using forged foreign passports, last week we saw the Kosher navy slaughter peace activists in international waters.

The emerging forensic reports of the massacre suggests Israeli executions on board the Mavi Marmara, reading the accounts of the Turkish survivors, and following the Israeli spokesmen's justifications of their killing squads actions, leaves no room for doubt. The Israeli society has past the no return zone. In fact, it must have drifted away from humanity a long time ago. It may be also reasonable to argue by now, that the Zionist initial attempt to ‘erect a new civilized Jew’ should be realized as a total failure. In fact the Israeli Jew is the most brutal of them all, even more deadly than the fictional character depicted by Tarantino’s film Inglorious Bastards.

One way to explain the rapid moral deterioration of the Jewish State is to point out that Zionists have never really committed to ethics. They were quick to learn that rather than truly internalizing the meaning of humanism, a spin would serve their cause as effectively.

The entire Hasbara (propaganda) project is grounded on a dissemination of lies. For years the Hasbara project, which has been supported by Sayanim all along, was there to present Israel as a ‘Western’ and ‘democratic’ nation in a ‘sea of Arabs’. All that time the Jewish State was inflicting pain on its neighbours, murdering, starving and ethnically cleansing the indigenous people of the land.

Enough is enough, it is time to name and shame every Israeli and Zionist infiltrator within political circles, media and academia. This shouldn’t be complicated at all because until very recently those Sayanim and traitors within our midst were doing it all in the open.

From Aggression to Victimhood

However, the Israelis are not just an ordinary murderous collective. As much as they were enthusiastic to unleash hundreds of their most brutal military unit (Fleet 13) against unarmed peace activists, the Israelis also insist on regarding their commandos as a bunch of innocent victims. It was amusing to follow Israeli officials and representatives talking about their ‘lynched commandos’ who were ‘attacked’ as soon as they were dropped from helicopters. “What did the commandos expect pro-Palestinian activists to do once they boarded the ships – invite them aboard for a cup of tea with the captain on the bridge?” wondered the Guardian editorial just one day after the massacre.

The apparent shortage of an Israeli capacity to understand that they were the aggressors in a military raid that they themselves initiated, is symptomatic of the Jewish political incomprehension of the notion of history and of historical causality. From a Jewish perspective, history always starts where a Jewish suffering is detected. For the Israelis the event on the Mavi Marmara started only when the first kosher commando confronted resistance on the upper deck. In the Israeli press, the fact that Israeli commandos were actually the attackers was completely neglected. They in fact took part in a criminal military raid, they were dropped from Israeli military helicopters, they landed on a civilian ship carrying humanitarian aid in international waters. For the Israelis the Mavi Maramara massacre event was isolated from the conflict or any understanding of the conflict.

Within the discourse of Jewish politics and history there is no room for causality. There is no such a thing as a former and a latter. Within the Jewish tribal discourse every narrative starts to evolve when Jewish pain establishes itself. This obviously explains why Israelis and some Jews around the world can only think as far as ‘two state solution’ within the framework of 1967 borders. It also explains why for most Jews the history of the holocaust starts in the gas chambers or with the rise of the Nazis. I have hardly seen any Israelis or Jews attempt to understand the circumstances that led to the clear resentment of Europeans towards their Jewish neighbors in the 1920’s-40’s.

I am pretty convinced that Israel and the Jewish national project is not going to recover from this last high sea massacre. The reason is simple. In order to save itself of its doomed fate, Israel would need to look in the mirror. This is not going to happen. By the time Israel looks in the mirror it would become a self-hater. Israel won’t take the risk.

Instead of looking in the mirror the Jewish tribal agitator reverts to spin. The Hasbara man releases a clumsily produced video that can be easily dismissed.

In case some Westerners have failed to see it until now, it is not just the Palestinians, Arabs or Muslims who fall victims to the deadly Biblical practice. In fact Zionism doesn’t really distinguish between Goyim. From a Zionist perspective every Gentile is a potential enemy. This must explain why Israel possesses so many nuclear bombs.

As one may guess, an atomic bomb is not exactly something you use against your next door neighbor. Israel’s nuclear arsenal is not there to deter the Palestinians or the Syrians. The Israeli Bomb is there for us, the Brits, the Turks, the French, the Russians, the Chinese, in short the rest of humanity. Israel’s nuclear arsenal should be realized in reference to Masada, the first century kosher fortified bunker where a few Jewish extremists committed a suicidal act just not to surrender to the Romans.

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/jewish-ideology-and-world-peace-by-gilad-atzmon.html

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just for AThirdWay,

An Israeli, former IDF solider now living in the uk (just like you I assume)

See my riposte in the other thread Osama.

I'm Scot's to core btw, "Wha's like us? Damn few, an' they're a' deid!" :P

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See my riposte in the other thread Osama.

I'm Scot's to core btw, "Wha's like us? Damn few, an' they're a' deid!" :P

so no actual comment on that brilliant article

just pure deception & BS as usual

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Why would/did they attack a US Warship? What was the motive?

Actually, just watched the documentary posted by LGP....Cheers for the link... Shocking cover up!!

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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311#

BBC documentary on the sinking. US Aircraft carrier with strike aircraft within range ordered to 'stand down' by the President. Where have we heard of that before then?

Apparently, President Johnson was being "serviced" at the time by the wife (and former Irgun terrorist) of the chief Democratic fundraiser, and Israeli lobbyist.

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Some of the Liberty's own crew stated in the "Loss of Liberty" documentary that a likely motive was to prevent them gathering intel, particularly on the Sinai battle going on at the time. Apparently the IDF was slaughtering Eygptian prisoners, among other atrocities...

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See my riposte in the other thread Osama.

I'm Scot's to core btw, "Wha's like us? Damn few, an' they're a' deid!" :P

Me too and I'm no deid yet!:)

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so no actual comment on that brilliant article

just pure deception & BS as usual

That article is as brilliant as Gordon Brown's economic skills.

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That article is as brilliant as Gordon Brown's economic skills.

What are your specific complaints about the article, Sherwick? :unsure:

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What are your specific complaints about the article, Sherwick? :unsure:

facts

truth

always hurts to chosen few.

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so no actual comment on that brilliant article

just pure deception & BS as usual

Would you like to comment on the following :

1. Where's your proof the attack on the Liberty was a false flag attack, when they were using Israeli airforce aircraft, and the patrol boats were flying the Israeli flag. Surely they'd be disguised as Egyptian ?

2. Where's the proof that Israel masterminded 9/11 ?

3. Why don't you condemn Israels neighbours for launching a coordinated attack 1 day after the state's creation, with the sole intention of wiping Israel off the face of the Earth.

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Would you like to comment on the following :

1. Where's your proof the attack on the Liberty was a false flag attack, when they were using Israeli airforce aircraft, and the patrol boats were flying the Israeli flag. Surely they'd be disguised as Egyptian ?

2. Where's the proof that Israel masterminded 9/11 ?

3. Why don't you condemn Israels neighbours for launching a coordinated attack 1 day after the state's creation, with the sole intention of wiping Israel off the face of the Earth.

eventhough internet is filled with all those answers & hpc has raised this time & again you pretend that its a new subject, why do you defend Israel after seeing proof everywhere?

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eventhough internet is filled with all those answers & hpc has raised this time & again you pretend that its a new subject, why do you defend Israel after seeing proof everywhere?

If you don't want to provide me with proof, fine. You see, I have an open mind on this and am prepared to look at any proof you'd care to show me. All I've ever seen on HPC concerning these topics are raised by the usual people who just want to see Israel destroyed, like yourself. Hardly a balance arguement.

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Would you like to comment on the following :

1. Where's your proof the attack on the Liberty was a false flag attack, when they were using Israeli airforce aircraft, and the patrol boats were flying the Israeli flag. Surely they'd be disguised as Egyptian ?

2. Where's the proof that Israel masterminded 9/11 ?

3. Why don't you condemn Israels neighbours for launching a coordinated attack 1 day after the state's creation, with the sole intention of wiping Israel off the face of the Earth.

1. The attack was an attempt to leave no traces, no survivors - hence the attacks on the life rafts - and blame it on Egypt. that's what is meant by this being a false flag attack.

3. Why don't you condemn the Irgun Gang, the Stern Gang and conventional Israeli forces for their ethnic cleansing of large parts of Israel? Look up the village of Deir Yassin, for example. Not just men of fighting age, but women, children, the elderly were slaughtered.

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1. The attack was an attempt to leave no traces, no survivors - hence the attacks on the life rafts - and blame it on Egypt. that's what is meant by this being a false flag attack.

3. Why don't you condemn the Irgun Gang, the Stern Gang and conventional Israeli forces for their ethnic cleansing of large parts of Israel? Look up the village of Deir Yassin, for example. Not just men of fighting age, but women, children, the elderly were slaughtered.

Thanks for your sensible reply.

1. It's virtually impossible to ensure in an attack on a ship not to leave survivors. Even when ships were totally destroyed by a cataclysmic explosion such as the Hood and the Arizona, there were still some survivors. To think that the Israelis would spend hours trying to ensure there were no survivors to frame the Egyptians, but not take the simple precaution of not flying Israeli flags and at least to make some attempt at hiding their identity isn't very likely. However I do think they have questions to answer, and I was shocked to find that there has never been an official enquiry by the Americans over this issue.

3. I do condemn acts such as Deir Yassin, as did many people at the time, as did the Haganah. The Stern and Irgun Gang were particularily nasty and thuggish and there's no place in the world for people like them.

There's been brutality on both sides of this conflict for years, and simply compairing one instance against another as we all do on this forum isn't going to help. There's only one question that we should ask - does Israel have the right to exist as a country?

A lot of people on this forum think the answer to that is no. And so does Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. And thats the problem. Until that basic issue is addressed, nothing else Israel does will matter in the long run - not lifting the blockade, returing the Golan, settling the Jerusalem problem, nothing. People like DisQ will always demand more, and blame the Israels for all the worlds ills, simply because they exist. :(

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  • 140 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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