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Greek Bailout Illegal Under Lisbon Treaty - Der Spiegel

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http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/2379-My-God,-Is-There-A-Rule-Of-Law.html

It may not be here in the US, but this could be a start!

(Warning: In German!)

Interestingly enough, Der Spiegel, which usually has an English version of most articles, doesn't have one of this entry I can find. I was therefore forced to Google Translate it - take a read.

The keys to this are the allegation that the "greek bailout" is unlawful under the Lisbon Treaty (no really?)

The government has responded (big surprise - NOT!) that if an injunction issues the result would be a self-fulfilling default and cites that "EU countries could be vulnerable."

No, really? I thought that was what you called it when you didn't have the money to pay your bills!

That of course isn't the point of the complaint. The complaint rests (properly, in my opinion) on the premise that the so-called "boom" in many parts of Europe was financed with German capital, which was effectively appropriated under false pretenses.

Gee, where have we seen this before? Banksters lying and cheating (cough-liar loans-cough!) and trading in derivatives without any money behind them (cough-AIG-cough!) and when the smoke clears suddenly the national governments are told "hand over hundreds of billions right now or the puppy dies!"

Uh huh.

G20 governments are increasingly coming to the realization that "borrow and spend" doesn't - and can't - work in the intermediate and longer term. Despite the bleating of Geithner at the G20 meeting he got nowhere trying to jawbone people into more Keynesian-style games.

We blew $4 trillion in the United States over the last two years and change and got nothing for it, and as a consequence we are stuck with the debt and haven't solved the problem. $4 trillion, of course, is about 30% of GDP, and this "support" has amounted to roughly 11% of GDP over the last three years.

We can either recognize that this won't work (just as it didn't in 2003 - all it did was create asset bubbles) and stop it, taking the pain we tried to defer (and added to) or we can take the risk of a complete detonation in the weeks and months ahead. Europe and the rest of the G20 appear to have woken up and decided that the Keynes-cum-idiocy is in fact idiocy, irrespective of the foolhardy and even criminally-insane bleating by Geithner and the Obama Administration.

The game, my friends, is afoot.

Interesting times looming...

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just read that abiout five mintues ago.

gotta say,would advise anyone to listen to the denninger interview with steve listed below this piece

Can't find it, linky?

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Very.All the bailout money did was flood into oil and commods and banks balance sheets.Who will really lose if assets crash ? Is deficit spending helping someone paying double what a house is worth for 30 years?.Is all that interest been sucked into banks helping business? Leaving customers with no spending power?.Let them suffer for their folly.I think the Germans are drawing a line in the sand here.I expect sterling to start to rally against the dollar.The US is desperate for the euro to break.Only having the $ as the reserve currency is saving the yanks,if that is broken the $ will collapse IMO.

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meant to add im luvvin that austerity budget for germany adn bailout for greece.

D'ya think the pfennig has finally dropped with Merkin that it's her banks that are the problem and she's going to have to find a shed load of money at some point?

At least we've (largely) dealt with all that in the UK whilst she's been in smug denial.

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Greek Bailout Illegal Under Lisbon Treaty

It is my understanding that is about the interpretation of one of the clauses. A favourable interpretation means it is is legal, and that is the problem. This is not like interpreting the US constitution, where all the authors are dead. There is no need for the court to interpret since those same politicians are still in power. The court will be presented with statements saying the bailout is within their intent. The court cannot rule that their intent was otherwise when presented with explicit statements.

Edited by thod

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D'ya think the pfennig has finally dropped with Merkin that it's her banks that are the problem and she's going to have to find a shed load of money at some point?

At least we've (largely) dealt with all that in the UK whilst she's been in smug denial.

UK banks have largely dealt with ... what?

Being pro-Greece does not excuse your belief in the greatest fantasy of all - solvency of RBS and every other UK mortgage lender.

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They didn't let on that there would be all these multi eutrillions of bail-out liabilities for EU tax payers to bail-out reckless EU countries and their reckless policies and reckless borrowing when tax payers voted on the contents of the Lisbon Treaty - that is for those countries actually allowed a referendum on it.

Edited by billybong

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It is my understanding that is about the interpretation of one of the clauses. A favourable interpretation means it is is legal, and that is the problem. This is not like interpreting the US constitution, where all the authors are dead. There is no need for the court to interpret since those same politicians are still in power. The court will be presented with statements saying the bailout is within their intent. The court cannot rule that their intent was otherwise when presented with explicit statements.

Are you sure about that? I mean, legislation does sometimes come back to bite the drafting government on the bum, and they don't just turn up in court and say, "sorry, we actually meant X, so this action we're doing is actually legal".

It's what the author wrote that matters, not what he claims he meant. If it's open to interpretation then the author was clearly acting beyond his competence in the first place, and should be the last person asked to provide further input B)

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It is my understanding that is about the interpretation of one of the clauses. A favourable interpretation means it is is legal, and that is the problem. This is not like interpreting the US constitution, where all the authors are dead. There is no need for the court to interpret since those same politicians are still in power. The court will be presented with statements saying the bailout is within their intent. The court cannot rule that their intent was otherwise when presented with explicit statements.

No doubt this is what the politicians are hoping, however this doesn't account for the law of unintended consequences.

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D'ya think the pfennig has finally dropped with Merkin that it's her banks that are the problem and she's going to have to find a shed load of money at some point?

At least we've (largely) dealt with all that in the UK whilst she's been in smug denial.

:lol::lol:

And if the HPC in the UK that many of us want occurs, what then?

RBS and the other lenders would be bust again. I believe they already are, but that's another discussion.

The Germans haven't had the HPI so don't have that problem, their problem is with money they loaned to foreigners.

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The Greeks got themselves into this mess and should get themselves out. Why the hell should the hardworking Germans pay for the lazy and feckless Greeks.

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The Greeks got themselves into this mess and should get themselves out. Why the hell should the hardworking Germans pay for the lazy and feckless Greeks.

I've heard a similar phrase before. I think that the answer then was "because it's the right thing to do".

p-o-p

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(Warning: In German!)

Interestingly enough, Der Spiegel, which usually has an English version of most articles, doesn't have one of this entry I can find. I was therefore forced to Google Translate it - take a read.

The keys to this are the allegation that the "greek bailout" is unlawful under the Lisbon Treaty (no really?)

That's not what the article says. It says that Peter Gauweiler of the centre-right CSU has appealed to the German supreme court to examine whether the Greek bailout is permissible under the German constitution. Not the Lisbon Treaty.

It mentions as an aside that Peter Gauweiler had also previously asked the German supreme court to examine whether signature of the Lisbon Treaty is compatible with the German constitution. Perhaps this is where the confusion arises.

Moral: Beware when using Google Translate!

Edited by snowflux

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  • 153 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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