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Cinnamon

New Charity Record For Gaza

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I take it those are Israeli comedians or satirists and it is amusing, but I can't help feeling there's a certain amount of smugness coming across. It's in their nature I suppose when they feel so threatened.

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Was this made by the people who like war and death. Great band. Turkey may not see the humour in it but they are commited to

not going to war with Israel according to the PM.

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=p&tbs=nws%3A1&q=Prime+Minister+of+Turkey++Navy+&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=51d983a1e014a270

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=11c_1275764422

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Should have used Geldof's song - it's much better music + would have strengthened the point about aid agencies conning the people.

Possibly, but the visual images are much weaker, and can you actually remember the individual voices from Band Aid?

I could definitely spot the Michael Jackson and Bob Dylan spoofs.

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Meh.

Bunch of Israelis feeling persecuted.. what's new.

I think it's more frustration. Rather than provide masses of food and other aid for the vermin trying to destroy them, it would be much more convenient to use VX on them. Maybe provide one syringe of atropine and let them fight over it.

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Guest theboltonfury

Not again!

Fog on the Tyne was bad enough. Will he never learn?!

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Not again!

Fog on the Tyne was bad enough. Will he never learn?!

I remember the first time I heard a "Gaza strip" gag - Clive Anderson, IIRC.

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I think it's more frustration. Rather than provide masses of food and other aid for the vermin trying to destroy them, it would be much more convenient to use VX on them. Maybe provide one syringe of atropine and let them fight over it.

Good point. Perhaps we should donate long range missiles.. then they can really let those Muslims Hamas have it.

In fact, if they pointed them at Iran, it might even put an end to the whole thing once and for all!

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Guest X-QUORK

I think it's more frustration. Rather than provide masses of food and other aid for the vermin trying to destroy them, it would be much more convenient to use VX on them. Maybe provide one syringe of atropine and let them fight over it.

Nice.

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I take no sides over the Israel / Palestine issue. It's bad guys v bad guys as far as I can work out, while innocent bystanders are the victims.

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Guest X-QUORK

I take no sides over the Israel / Palestine issue. It's bad guys v bad guys as far as I can work out, while innocent bystanders are the victims.

Err...that's kind of the point of the relief ships.

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Err...that's kind of the point of the relief ships.

Most of what those ships carried was useless rubbish -- out-of-date medicines for example. And Hamas is refusing to accept the aid which should tell you that it actually isn't urgently needed or wanted -- there is no way that the Israelis will let them have the camouflage fabric that was delivered for example.

What I don't understand about you is that you are openly supporting those nazis -- don't you know that Hamas is the spawn of Hitlers' Middle East effort? Whilst you're at it, might as well study Nazi legend Otto Skorzeny's stellar effort of bringing Nazism and Gestapo methods to Gaza and beyond: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny

Skorzeny had also been spending time in Egypt. In 1952 the country had been taken over by General Mohammed Naguib. Skorzeny was sent to Egypt the following year by former General Reinhard Gehlen, who was now working for the CIA, to act as Naguib's military advisor. Skorzeny recruited a staff made up of former SS officers to train the Egyptian army. Among these officers were SS General Wilhelm Farmbacher, Panzer General Oskar Munzel, Leopold Gleim, head of the Gestapo Department for Jewish Affairs in Poland, and Joachim Daemling, former chief of the Gestapo in Düsseldorf joined Skorzeny in Egypt. In addition to training the army, Skorzeny also trained Arab volunteers in commando tactics for possible use against British troops stationed in the Suez Canal zone. Several Palestinian refugees also received commando training, and Skorzeny planned their initial strikes into Israel via the Gaza Strip in 1953-1954. One of these Palestinians was Yasser Arafat.[15]

And also read this site: www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com and then reconsider if you really want to support those pedigree Nazis and be one of them. I don't think so, I think you simply don't know what kind of scene has conned you into thinking they are the good guys.

If you really want to help the Gazans, then your first step would be to help get rid of the Hamas regime and enable the Gazans to elect a proper government that doesn't use them as cannon fodder and human shields, or rips them off serially by using them like harvestable sheep instead of treating them like citizens.

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Most of what those ships carried was useless rubbish -- out-of-date medicines for example. And Hamas is refusing to accept the aid which should tell you that it actually isn't urgently needed or wanted -- there is no way that the Israelis will let them have the camouflage fabric that was delivered for example.

With respect, the aid was for the people of Gaza, not Hamas. Hamas have said they won't let the Gazans receive it which simply makes them as bad as the Israeli's.. who at least appear to be letting the stuff through now. Personally I would rather have slightly out of date medicine than no medicine at all.

What I don't understand about you is that you are openly supporting those Nazis -- don't you know that Hamas is the spawn of Hitlers' Middle East effort?

Nobody is supporting Hamas.. how is that so difficult to understand?! People are supporting aid relief to Gaza. If you want to persuade us that Gazans are really Nazi throwbacks from 1940's Germany hell bent on finishing the job then I think you are one cookie short of a packet. Do the Israeli's think like that as well? :huh:

If you really want to help the Gazans, then your first step would be to help get rid of the Hamas regime and enable the Gazans to elect a proper government that doesn't use them as cannon fodder and human shields, or rips them off serially by using them like harvestable sheep instead of treating them like citizens.

Fine, if the Israeli's can't handle the Hamas problem on their own they should publicly announce that and request support from the Americans / UN.

Fortunately since the whole thing has got so out of control it looks like that may happen anyway.

What was your take on To Shoot An Elephant by the way?

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With respect, the aid was for the people of Gaza, not Hamas. Hamas have said they won't let the Gazans receive it which simply makes them as bad as the Israeli's.. who at least appear to be letting the stuff through now. Personally I would rather have slightly out of date medicine than no medicine at all.

Well, your liver would hate you, and there is a reason for the 'out of date' concept -- it's when medicine turns to poison.

Nobody is supporting Hamas.. how is that so difficult to understand?! People are supporting aid relief to Gaza. If you want to persuade us that Gazans are really Nazi throwbacks from 1940's Germany hell bent on finishing the job then I think you are one cookie short of a packet. Do the Israeli's think like that as well? :huh:

You know very well that the entire cruise was in aid of the Hamas who are the ones who are keeping the Gazans hostage and who rule Gaza with an iron fist. I know you mean well, but you're being used by these people, so are the other well-meaning people on the flotilla. The aid brought in was a) useless B) too little c) Gaza doesn't even have a harbour where that size ship can dock d) The Egyptians also offered to land the cargo and were refused. It was nothing but an expensive propagada cruise and Turkey has much to gain politically (nationally and internationally) from this too.

Have you looked at the sites I cited and have you understood Nazi Hamas' pedigree? (Fatah is also infected with the same plague to some extend) On a side note, I like discussing, but please, no insults, they are fattening :)

Now, back to the topic. Some things should never be done by decent people, one of them is to march in lockstep with proven fascists, which is what is happening here for you and X-Quork.

As long as the decent protesters aren't throwing out the IHH guys and are tolerating jihadists to squat on their mission, they are not on an aid mission anymore, but on a Propaganda trip.. Imagine if you went on a demonstration and suddenly the NF turns up and stands next to you in agreement with your protest. Would you ignore them and don't mind to look as if you're with them, or eject them first before you do another thing because you don't want your cause tainted and discredited?

But well, why not inform yourself in other places than where you normally go? It's all there, once you' have been informed fully, you can make your own choices and then decide on what you can do to really help. But letting yourself be used by Nazis like Hamas is never productive, even if they are the only game in town.

As for more facts on the flotilla story, see here: http://www.flotillafacts.com/ for some information. You don't have to like the site, but the information is interesting and I encourage you to check the truth of what they claim for yourself. Who knows it may even help you make your points better :)

Fine, if the Israeli's can't handle the Hamas problem on their own they should publicly announce that and request support from the Americans / UN.

Fortunately since the whole thing has got so out of control it looks like that may happen anyway.

What was your take on To Shoot An Elephant by the way?

The film you (and incidentally, David Icke) recommend is 2 hours long and takes time to download and view, afterwards, I have to think about it and of course, fact check the claims. First impression is that it's a propaganda film and not as objective as such documentaries should ideally be, the sales pitch being: "To shoot an elephant" is an eye witness account from The Gaza Strip. December 27th, 2008, Operation Cast Lead. 21 days shooting elephants. Urgent, insomniac, dirty, shuddering images from the only foreigners who decided and managed to stay embedded inside Gaza strip ambulances, with Palestinian civilians. " To be honest, I'm not sure that this is the most productive thing ever, in general I dislike propaganda and preferdry, boring facts, but I'll look. Warning: you may not like the feedback when it eventually arrives.

As for the Americans and the UN helping the Gazans... I believe that when I see the UN bother about Kurdistan. And the UN will not be able to do a thing about Gaza either, apart from the fact that they are a corrupt talking shop who is useless at anything they try(other than at collecting money...), what could they actually do about Gaza that is constructive in the long-term?

The only path out I can see is to remove Hamas and then rebuild culture and society in Gaza somehow to a point where they are ready to have a civilisation again that isn't based on tribal 'might is right'.

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Well, your liver would hate you, and there is a reason for the 'out of date' concept -- it's when medicine turns to poison.

Ok, I understood it was because the active ingredient degraded over time.. I don't think I've ever suffered due to an out of date aspirin. That said, I don't think we need to debate this.

You know very well that the entire cruise was in aid of the Hamas who are the ones who are keeping the Gazans hostage and who rule Gaza with an iron fist. I know you mean well, but you're being used by these people, so are the other well-meaning people on the flotilla. The aid brought in was a ) useless B ) too little c ) Gaza doesn't even have a harbour where that size ship can dock d ) The Egyptians also offered to land the cargo and were refused. It was nothing but an expensive propagada cruise and Turkey has much to gain politically (nationally and internationally) from this too.

The cruise was attended by various foreign nationals, MPs and reporters.. it sounds as though some passengers were feeling particularly confrontational.. but I don't think you can say that all these people were members of Hamas or even that they sympathised with them. I honestly believe that the aim was to provide aid and media attention to the plight of Gazans caught up in the conflict. If the boat had really been full of Hamas members I suspect they might have taken more than just cooking knives to kill the Israeli forces. Also, you contradict yourself. You assert that the aid was useless, yet the purpose was to support Hamas.. presumably by poisoning them with their own medicine?!?

Have you looked at the sites I cited and have you understood Nazi Hamas' pedigree? (Fatah is also infected with the same plague to some extend) On a side note, I like discussing, but please, no insults, they are fattening :)

Ok, fine.. Hamas are Nazis. I'm not gong to look it up because the Nazi movement finished with the fall of the Fuhrer. Whatever they were then they are now Hamas. And they don't like Israel.. I think we can agree on that.

[if I'm honest I think you are deliberately drawing the association in order to abuse emotive stereotypes which, IMHO, weaken your argument]

As long as the decent protesters aren't throwing out the IHH guys and are tolerating jihadists to squat on their mission, they are not on an aid mission anymore, but on a Propaganda trip.

It was a propaganda / aid trip, but not for Hamas, for Gazans. Do you think the world thinks more highly of Hamas now, or do you think they are more motivated to resolve the issue? Do you think "resolving the issue" will be good for Hamas?

If anything it will give weight to an argument for eliminating them completely from Gaza and surrounding areas.

If Hamas deliberately did this as a propaganda exercise then I fear it may backfire severely.

As for more facts on the flotilla story, see here: http://www.flotillafacts.com/ for some information. You don't have to like the site, but the information is interesting and I encourage you to check the truth of what they claim for yourself. Who knows it may even help you make your points better :)

Ok, I feel I've read one side of the story now. I wouldn't exactly call your references unbiased..

The only path out I can see is to remove Hamas and then rebuild culture and society in Gaza somehow to a point where they are ready to have a civilisation again that isn't based on tribal 'might is right'.

At which point our paths align. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The only problem now is managing to do it without the Israeli army shooting every man woman and child in the process. If they can do that, they might just win.

I may appear to be unreasonably biased against Israel forces and jump to conclusions about their mind set towards the Palestinians.

If I do then I apologise, my views are formed from meeting youngish Israeli's and hearing how they speak about them. I honestly believe from what I've heard that racism in the Israeli army endemic. This may however have been unrepresentative.. but I would need serious convincing. Unfortunately the scenes shot in the video diary posted previously only support what I have heard.

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Guest X-QUORK

Unfortunately the scenes shot in the video diary posted previously only support what I have heard.

You can prove anything with facts.

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The cruise was attended by various foreign nationals, MPs and reporters.. it sounds as though some passengers were feeling particularly confrontational.. but I don't think you can say that all these people were members of Hamas or even that they sympathised with them. I honestly believe that the aim was to provide aid and media attention to the plight of Gazans caught up in the conflict. If the boat had really been full of Hamas members I suspect they might have taken more than just cooking knives to kill the Israeli forces. Also, you contradict yourself. You assert that the aid was useless, yet the purpose was to support Hamas.. presumably by poisoning them with their own medicine?!?

The aid items were mostly useless tat, the propaganda was not. Seems to have been a hit in Turkey (who have an election soon ) and other muslim countries. As for the MPs who took part, the Germans were from the 'Linke', now renamed SED party (the ones who built a wall parting Germany and killed a lot of Social Democrats in best Stalin style and ended up spying on DDR citizens to the tune of 1 neighborhood grass per 50 citizens). And it was not Hamas members, but IHH members and yes, they came well quipped and armed, as you can see if you follow the links I gave you -- there is very little one can spin about the weapon collection. Stones catapulted by slings are not harmless, in fact they are an awesome weapon at close range, a skilled user can be as dangerous as someone with a gun if not more because the weapon is silent. Throwing a knife accurately is also in that league at short range, so the collection was anything but trivial. Either way, it's not something you bring to a 'peace mission'.

Ok, fine.. Hamas are Nazis. I'm not gong to look it up because the Nazi movement finished with the fall of the Fuhrer. Whatever they were then they are now Hamas. And they don't like Israel.. I think we can agree on that.

[if I'm honest I think you are deliberately drawing the association in order to abuse emotive stereotypes which, IMHO, weaken your argument]

Well... as you can see for yourself there is a direct pedigree, and claiming that anyone has a perfect Nazi pedigree does weaken an argument doesn't quite work. If they are a Nazi or a spin-off, then this is what they are, no point in glossing over it. Being a Nazi is no German monopoly either, strange but true. People like Skorzeny were no lightweights and as you can see, the poison they spread stuck around. He didn't do it because he liked Arabs, but because he wanted revenge on the Jews. For Germans of that time Arabs were Untermenschen, period, Nazis don't do Multiculti by definition.

Btw, 'Mein Kampf' is a bestseller in Turkey, so, unfortunately, the Nazi meme is a hit there with the 'national soul'. The fall of the Fuehrer was sadly not the end of the problem, and even now, there is a strong Nazi party in Germany who are best buddies with the popular Turkish Nazi group 'Grey Wolves' (who incidentally often protest together with the Antifa against the right and Israel). Germany still spends hundreds of millions to in the never ending 'Campaign against Nazis' and on surveillance to keep them out of key places in public life. It just about works, but in recent years, young Nazis have moved away from the NPD and started the 'Die Autonomen' -- a sort of wild mix between anarchy and nationalism that is organised in a non-hierarchical way.

So as much as I wish you were right that this spooky stuff died with Hitler, it isn't so :(

Ok, I feel I've read one side of the story now. I wouldn't exactly call your references unbiased..

I told you you wouldn't, but then again, you can check everything for yourself and make sure you're not being lied to. it doesn't matter who tells you about it if it's a fact, and I'm not asking you to check their opinion, just their claims about facts. I thought that what I saw in the videos was pretty obvious, also, there are the Hurriyet pictures: http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?P=2&cid=36575&rid=2 which is a Turkish daily. You can clearly see the weapons in the pictures and it's not as if they are giving the soldiers first aid there either, and at that point, the riot had turned into a kidnapping situation.

Anyway, I am glad you now see Hamas and the Turkish Islamist party aims here in a more critical light, and I also hope that you now know that the Nazi problems have not gone away in 1945.

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Most of what those ships carried was useless rubbish -- out-of-date medicines for example. And Hamas is refusing to accept the aid which should tell you that it actually isn't urgently needed or wanted -- there is no way that the Israelis will let them have the camouflage fabric that was delivered for example.

What I don't understand about you is that you are openly supporting those nazis -- don't you know that Hamas is the spawn of Hitlers' Middle East effort? Whilst you're at it, might as well study Nazi legend Otto Skorzeny's stellar effort of bringing Nazism and Gestapo methods to Gaza and beyond: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny

And also read this site: www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com and then reconsider if you really want to support those pedigree Nazis and be one of them. I don't think so, I think you simply don't know what kind of scene has conned you into thinking they are the good guys.

If you really want to help the Gazans, then your first step would be to help get rid of the Hamas regime and enable the Gazans to elect a proper government that doesn't use them as cannon fodder and human shields, or rips them off serially by using them like harvestable sheep instead of treating them like citizens.

FYI Israel created Hamas as an opposing force to Fatah:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16447

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2002/06/18/Analysis-Hamas-history-tied-to-Israel/UPI-82721024445587

http://amconmag.com/article/2007/feb/12/00017/

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Well... as you can see for yourself there is a direct pedigree, and claiming that anyone has a perfect Nazi pedigree does weaken an argument doesn't quite work.

Ok, well Godwin aside, and given that you are interested in seeing the problem from all angles, perhaps you could try to empathise with the some of the following view points?

I await your argument that Israel can do no wrong.

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  • 143 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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