Spending: £1.8Bn Consultants Bill In Labour’S Final Fling

[ccc]

...Consultants bonuses are not geared to client needs and savings achieved ...only to the number of consultants they can add to the customers needs....it's like a virus which only the Nuliebour boys were too thick to understand .....you suffered because ethically you delivered.....

Exactly - hence why they charge per consultant. The big boys in charge of these places are not dumb.

[South Lorne]

Actually, even in my small business, I did employ one consultant, A QA consultant.

To get work from certain customers, we needed a formal ISO 9001 QA system, and a good QA consultant, working a few days a year, was the best way to achieve this.

...this is a temp....

[miko]

All this consultant's it's all part of company bull--it's and seeing to be doing , looking important and people walking around with a piece of paper making notes ( seen it done and done it myself ) .

There is so much bull--it , plus business speak using the right sayings and saying the right things.

Saw an artical a few years back where a guy in one company invented a game called bullsh-t bingo. Everyone had a card with different sayings on different cards, such as

On a global platform

Lean and nible

Rise to the challenge

Step up to the mark

Company focused

Planing strategy's

Keep them in the loop

Touch base with

The list is endless but carn't think of any more right now.

So when a person heard a manegment phrase if it was on their card they crossed it off and the first one to cross of everyone on their card won.

Basically sums up so much manegment crap that is around now.

[South Lorne]

Exactly - hence why they charge per consultant. The big boys in charge of these places are not dumb.

...they are very rich....

[ccc]

...they are very rich....

Oh yes they are !!

However they must feel a little dirty and using.

Why companies still fall for their bull is beyond me.

[ccc]

All this consultant's it's all part of company bull--it's and seeing to be doing , looking important and people walking around with a piece of paper making notes ( seen it done and done it myself ) .

There is so much bull--it , plus business speak using the right sayings and saying the right things.

Saw an artical a few years back where a guy in one company invented a game called bullsh-t bingo. Everyone had a card with different sayings on different cards, such as

On a global platform

Lean and nible

Rise to the challenge

Step up to the mark

Company focused

Planing strategy's

Keep them in the loop

Touch base with

The list is endless but carn't think of any more right now.

So when a person heard a manegment phrase if it was on their card they crossed it off and the first one to cross of everyone on their card won.

Basically sums up so much manegment crap that is around now.

Don't forget the newest one - 'Socialise'

Now this means the same as communicate, let everyone know, etc..

However some consultant deciced socialise was more useful to everyone.

[Guest_Bosworth_*]

(1) I will go into the same company tomorrow. I will reduce their run costs/rate by 10%. I will charge only 5% for this service. Does that mean I am an amazing management consultant and should be getting my brand new Canry Wharf Office ready as we speak ?

Why won't I do it ? Simply because I have seen those that do. It is horrific. ******** all round. And I am one person who is about as far from ******** as it is possible to get. I get paid from the same companies you do. Not as much but pretty good money. Yet I get to be honest about what is going on. So option is:

[a]Paid mega shit loads and ******** bingo every day of your life.

Paid shit loads and say what you want.

I will go for option any day.

(2) Why is a clear conscience relevant ? You do what you do and that is it. If you think you actually make 5-20k savings per day for these companies you are truly delusional. If not then tell us what you did last Friday. Fire away...

You either get it, or you don't.

You either see the value, or you don't.

It's not for me to try and persuade you one way or another. The fact is the market is tight at the moment and firms usually have to prove the value that will be released by employing a consultant. I would be perfectly happy to enter into a "risk reward" relationship - putting my money where my mouth is.

Now I don't doubt that some consultants do everything they can to obfuscate and wibble, and claim things that are unprovable etc. But I (and the firm I work for - hence the reason I work for them) do not do that. Nor do we put in armies of people - just 1 or 2 to get a specific job done. Hard jobs that companies do not have the skills to do themselves for whatever reason.

And we do it right first time.

How many big projects do you know of that fail or are going wrong or are not delivering the benefits that they should? How much is it "worth" to get those projects delivered right first time?

Hence the need for roles like mine and the ability to charge fees for our services.

So the question about "what I did last Friday" is therefore not the right question - it should be what have the sum total of my actions over the last few months done to save money or ensure money is wisely spent?

[ccc]

You either get it, or you don't.

You either see the value, or you don't.

It's not for me to try and persuade you one way or another. The fact is the market is tight at the moment and firms usually have to prove the value that will be released by employing a consultant. I would be perfectly happy to enter into a "risk reward" relationship - putting my money where my mouth is.

Now I don't doubt that some consultants do everything they can to obfuscate and wibble, and claim things that are unprovable etc. But I (and the firm I work for - hence the reason I work for them) do not do that. Nor do we put in armies of people - just 1 or 2 to get a specific job done. Hard jobs that companies do not have the skills to do themselves for whatever reason.

And we do it right first time.

How many big projects do you know of that fail or are going wrong or are not delivering the benefits that they should? How much is it "worth" to get those projects delivered right first time?

Hence the need for roles like mine and the ability to charge fees for our services.

So the question about "what I did last Friday" is therefore not the right question - it should be what have the sum total of my actions over the last few months done to save money or ensure money is wisely spent?

Brilliant Management Consultant answer. It was yourself who stated they made 5-20 times what they charged daily for the end client. And yet when I ask you for an example ? You answer with a question.

You get paid very well for ********. No harm in that. If you can get it then fair enough. However please don't try and pretend you are some saviour of businesses. Because you are not.

[miko]

Don't forget the newest one - 'Socialise'

Now this means the same as communicate, let everyone know, etc..

However some consultant deciced socialise was more useful to everyone.

There's loads of them I just carn't think of more right now:-

How about

Best practice

Businness neads

working towards a common goal

Steap learning curve ( the one they used when a manager fuk--d up) well he is on a steep learning curve in otherwords let him off as he is managment

Adapt to change

There's loads and most are just sh-t talk !!

[ccc]

There's loads of them I just carn't think of more right now:-

How about

Best practice

Businness neads

working towards a common goal

Steap learning curve ( the one they used when a manager fuk--d up) well he is on a steep learning curve in otherwords let him off as he is managment

Adapt to change

There's loads and most are just sh-t talk !!

Blue sky thinking.

Lets park it.

Caveat.

Ad naseum...

[Cat Herder]

I have read these posts with interest having worked as a consultant for over 15 years and can largely corroborate Bosworth's view of the world.

Many of the other posts are right on the money, however; the management teams of our companies should be able to implement improvements/efficiencies themselves, particularly such things as JIT which have been around for some time. However, the simple fact is, they don't, or won't; and they continue to make the most elementary errors time and time again.

There are a number of factors that come into play here:

• Laziness - it is hard work to implement a change
  
• Self-interest - they have usually spent years manouvering into their position. Why would they try and change things when they could lose out?
  
• Ability - managers are not, in the main, exceptional people with exceptional ability, they just did reasonably well, or played the required political games. They may not know what needs to be done or have the skills to do it.
  
• Culture - changing the way an organisation works is hard, and I mean really hard!! - people just don't see why they should change how they do things.
  
• History - making improvements means admitting that you have been doing things wrong in the past.
  

Consultants are brought into organisations to provide specialist skills and experience, and to help make changes. In my experience, consultants are talented and motivated people, who work long hours, often in hostile environments, to make a difference to the organisations they work with. However, as a consultant, there is only so much that you can do (horses to water and all that). If the management team of the company that you are working for ignores your advice or doesn't do their part, they will simply not get the results they paid all that money to achieve; and if they don't achieve the results they will always blame the consultants!

Consultants certainly have a role to play in making organisations more efficient and should be paid well if they get results, but they can only do so much. The buck should always stop with the management of the company/organisation, but consultants are easy targets if things go wrong.

[ccc]

I have read these posts with interest having worked as a consultant for over 15 years and can largely corroborate Bosworth's view of the world.

Many of the other posts are right on the money, however; the management teams of our companies should be able to implement improvements/efficiencies themselves, particularly such things as JIT which have been around for some time. However, the simple fact is, they don't, or won't; and they continue to make the most elementary errors time and time again.

There are a number of factors that come into play here:

• Laziness - it is hard work to implement a change
• Self-interest - they have usually spent years manouvering into their position. Why would they try and change things when they could lose out?
• Ability - managers are not, in the main, exceptional people with exceptional ability, they just did reasonably well, or played the required political games. They may not know what needs to be done or have the skills to do it.
• Culture - changing the way an organisation works is hard, and I mean really hard!! - people just don't see why they should change how they do things.
• History - making improvements means admitting that you have been doing things wrong in the past.

Consultants are brought into organisations to provide specialist skills and experience, and to help make changes. In my experience, consultants are talented and motivated people, who work long hours, often in hostile environments, to make a difference to the organisations they work with. However, as a consultant, there is only so much that you can do (horses to water and all that). If the management team of the company that you are working for ignores your advice or doesn't do their part, they will simply not get the results they paid all that money to achieve; and if they don't achieve the results they will always blame the consultants!

Consultants certainly have a role to play in making organisations more efficient and should be paid well if they get results, but they can only do so much. The buck should always stop with the management of the company/organisation, but consultants are easy targets if things go wrong.

But that is the problem. They get paid very well whatever happens. As long as they do the right things, say the right things, wear the right suit. It sounds cliched but it is true. I have seen it myself.

They do need to be fairly smart though. But not rocket scientists.

[miko]

But that is the problem. They get paid very well whatever happens. As long as they do the right things, say the right things, wear the right suit. It sounds cliched but it is true. I have seen it myself.

They do need to be fairly smart though. But not rocket scientists.

+1

[libspero]

I'm getting a little caught up by the definition of a consultant.

I would have viewed a consultant as someone who gets paid a one-off fee to impart specialist/advanced knowledge to a company in order to help achieve a long term objective (improved efficiency, how to tackle a new technical problem etc).

The context here appears to be more about the contract hire of specialist staff. Eg, I need a project manager for 3 weeks to oversee XYZ.. I'll get in someone on a short term contract to oversee it.

I have more time for the latter since they are actually taking ownership and responsibility. The former may be very useful if the advise is particularly good, but at the end of the day it is just another persons view point/opinion.

[ccc]

I'm getting a little caught up by the definition of a consultant.

I would have viewed a consultant as someone who gets paid a one-off fee to impart specialist/advanced knowledge to a company in order to help achieve a long term objective (improved efficiency, how to tackle a new technical problem etc).

The context here appears to be more about the contract hire of specialist staff. Eg, I need a project manager for 3 weeks to oversee XYZ.. I'll get in someone on a short term contract to oversee it.

I have more time for the latter since they are actually taking ownership and responsibility. The former may be very useful if the advise is particularly good, but at the end of the day it is just another persons view point/opinion.

I think consultant in this context means a huge company who sells their way into another huge company on the pretence of doing them a service and saving them money. When in reality - their entire pretence is getting into this project in the first place - and hanging on as long as humanly possible.

I am sure others are different. However this is going on a lot in the big boys just now.

[ken_ichikawa]

Heh this stuff isn't relegated to the public sector but of course private sector its their own money.

Nigel at Hal called in a bunch of consultants once who charged him the thick end of £40K. The company ran ok when keith was CEO. Nigel was too full of himself to realise HE was the problem along with Anna. They introduced regular psychometric testing and they bought timesheets back in, the psychometric tests and discussions about the results sucked up about 3 hours a week.

Anna had a personality disorder and everybody was scared of her, she would forget things shout at you bully you castigate you for things which were HER fault.

Nigel was the bigger problem, he changed accountants into bank tellers, he made it so we HAD to sell a financial services product EVERYDAY, we're not salesmen we replied. You are salesmen now if you don't like it leave. They turned over 100% of staff within 9 months, hours were cut on jobs an unattainable moving target while blindfolded and electroshocked target was introduced for bonuses it was IMPOSSIBLE to hit. Nobody got pay rises.

More people left so the consultants were called in, he spent £40K on psychometric tests Alan found in 20 seconds online.

Meetings would start whereby they would go Ad Hommein on you FIRST, oh Ken I see that you are a burisq person we might as well not mess around. Morale fell through the floor and people at lunch time started looking for alternative jobs.

So they cut internet access off at lunch, then stuck microphones and CCTV in the staff lougue to 'deal with trouble makers' the company still has a 80% turn over of staff except every 4 months because it is so horrible. The only people who stayed at put up with it were the guess what? Massively indebted mortage people.

[ken_ichikawa]

The problem is tbh is that the staff ARE often capable of the jobs themselves.

The problem is the management do not trust them at all, unlike in Japan where companies aside from working their staff to death take a left from shingeo shingo where the staff are allowed to make suggestions and plans at ALL LEVELS.

It's a credibility issue, my dad does this all the time, i.e. why should I believe you you aren't famous, Gordon Brown is Gordon Brown therefore must be right.

If you charge £10K for a couple of weeks this instantly adds credibility.

And companies will not readily admit to being ripped off will they?

[futurepaul]

Surely in this day and age whether a company decides to go the JIT route and organsises their supply chain for this , or not , they don't need a consultant to tell them about JIT .

It has been around a long time now nothing new , why pay shed loads to be told about the options.

The point is not JIT it is about measures and triangulation of performabce measures and considering the risks. You only have to look at the farce the UK economy to see what happens what you forget about risk

[mitchbux]

Blue sky thinking.

Lets park it.

Caveat.

Ad naseum...

Have you never played Bullsh1t bingo

http://www.bullshitbingo.net/cards/bullsh1t/

Aaargh, damned filter! substitute the 1

Edited June 6, 2010 by mitchbux

[futurepaul]

...if you can't measure it you can't manage it.....but you don't need a consultant to tell you this....the Public Sector needs to hire the right people in the first place on less inflated salaries....they should also not be putting their own staff through professional courses and examinations at the taxpayers expense ...in the private sector most people have to pay to develop themselves ....these spoon fed useless primas should be realeased to make way for the people who 'can do' ...and not paper over the cracks to shield blame by hiring consultants who are only there to bring in more consultants ....the big question is ...who set up the consultant contracts in the first place....?....and why...?....after all it's our money and we would like to understand how incompetent or otherwise the services are....and why....

...if you can't measure it you can't manage it..... True

.....but you don't need a consultant to tell you this.... True

....the Public Sector needs to hire the right people in the first place on less inflated salaries.... Are the'right people in the labour pool I am starting to think no

....they should also not be putting their own staff through professional courses and examinations at the taxpayers expense ... I disagree a degree should be paid for by the person and you should be indentured for expensive training. Other training costs should be bourne by the comapany why 'cos the company needs it. I have only paid for my engineering degree, My Black Belt, ISO and APM training etc. were all paid for by my company

...who set up the consultant contracts in the first place....?....and why...?.... This is the question My answer: a boss who failed to develop his staff enough and why 'cos he has no faith in his staff

Government 'Businesses' never good out of business for poor performance, never compete. Therefore they are sheltered from making the hard choices the private sector has to.

[Cogs]

Everyone is right and here is why. Its quite a common observation that organisations have issues that are commonly recognised but the people who want to change them can't get the power to do so. Eventually some sort of crisis hits or things just become intolerable. Either the consultant is called in to provide cover for finally doing the unpleasant thing or else calling in the consultant marks the point at which the organisation itself is ready to tackle its problems and has sufficient resolve. So the consultant turns up, implements what everyone already knew needed implemented, claims great efficiencies and leaves. This is why so many of them can get away with being 25 year olds working out of the same binder every other "consultant" in their office uses, its not really what they do or don't do, they have a largely ceremonial purpose in proceedings.

[Blod]

Everyone is right and here is why. Its quite a common observation that organisations have issues that are commonly recognised but the people who want to change them can't get the power to do so. Eventually some sort of crisis hits or things just become intolerable. Either the consultant is called in to provide cover for finally doing the unpleasant thing or else calling in the consultant marks the point at which the organisation itself is ready to tackle its problems and has sufficient resolve. So the consultant turns up, implements what everyone already knew needed implemented, claims great efficiencies and leaves. This is why so many of them can get away with being 25 year olds working out of the same binder every other "consultant" in their office uses, its not really what they do or don't do, they have a largely ceremonial purpose in proceedings.

Exactly, upper tiers of management fear the loss of their position if they admit that they don't "get it". Bring on the consultant, carrying out what middle management would have done but in the process saving the face of upper management.

Never seen a consultant recommend firing the upper management that bought them in, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Mind you it;d make me smile is some has seen that happen.

[SarahBell]

I know it'd cost an unreasonable amount of money... but I'd like to know who's benefited from this insane spending... And every piggy who's fed themselves needs turning into sausages.

[Cogs]

I know it'd cost an unreasonable amount of money... but I'd like to know who's benefited from this insane spending... And every piggy who's fed themselves needs turning into sausages.

The new government has a formidable task: to reduce the public sector deficit while maintaining the quality of services. But this could be the catalyst for a giant step forward in the organisation and effectiveness of the public sector. Recent proposals from Management Consultancies Association member companies identified at least £25bn worth of savings. Some of these come from enhanced efficiencies, but some also involve improvements in the way that "frontline services" are organised. This is a moment for ambition and positive thinking. We stand ready to help.

Pat Newberry

President, Management Consultancies Association

http://www.guardian....ng-cuts-savings

I think I can see an additional 1.8 billion that report probably doesn't mention... you also have to ask yourself why these people work for the Tories, the Lib Dems and Labour for free before each election. Whatever happens its gravy for them.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Cogs

[Timak]

I've done quite a bit of work in consultancy in the public sector, I don't think I've saved them any money.

I think they are more efficient, and instead of taking 20 days to process an application it may now only take 5.

If this were a private organisation they could then say 20 days was fine lets get rid of lots of staff but this never happens.

If I were a big consultancy rather than an individual I could come up with some flannel about the gain to the wider economy and how that feeds back into the taxation pot but I really can't be bothered.

My dealings with the likes of Deloitte, Capita etc have always amused me. You tend to get 2 new graduates (they ALWAYS travel in pairs) bamboozling a room full of senior managers with absolute nonsence, after their presentation they leave and no-one in the room will admit publically that they didn't understand a word. One of the IT department (it is always IT) will then call them out for speaking rubbish but the senior management will ignore them (the guys from Deloitte wear suits, what does some bloke he fixes printers know that they wouldn't!)

Deloitte/Capita then come in with the lowest quotes blowing all the independent consultants out the water.

A couple of months later and Deloitte turn up and start invoicing for £70 an hour for their most junior consultants and somehow find lots of chargeable things they need to do that weren't in the original spec. The independent guys who said "and anything else within reason that makes the product work" suddenly look like they'd have been much better value......