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porca misèria

Cable On Any Questions

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Any questions: Vince stars, alongside Lord Adonis, Polly Toynbee, and a journo called Toby somethingorother.

CGT question. Adonis waffles about splits in the coalition, doesn't try to answer the question. Vince puts the case. Toby puts the Redwood case. Toynbee supports Vince.

Then Dimbleby gets back to the questioner, who comes out in support of Vince: we need a distinction between entrepreneurs and speculators.

I just emailed any answers:

Vince Cable of course has to say it diplomatically, but ...

With income tax rates (including National Insurance and loss of allowances/benefits) at rates of up to 75% on high incomes, and even higher on below-average incomes, it is scandalous that speculative windfalls should be rewarded.

Vince Cable is right to seek to close that gap. Your questioner is right. David Cameron is even more right to stand up to the disruptive elements in his own party. Polly Toynbee is right (something I never thought I'd say) to point out that only the *very* rich have capital gains tax liabilities at all (others have cash savings which are taxed and get no taper relief against inflation). And I speak as someone with FTSE-beating capital gains in a six-figure equity portfolio!

Redwood, and his fan-club of journalists, are being disingenuous when they seek to equate speculative property gains with the rewards of genuine entrepreneurs.

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Oooh, first caller on the subject is excellent! Land is the mother of all monopolies. HPC sentiment, and eloquently put.

On any Questions the figure of 130,000 people paying CGT regularly was quoted.

Why do the rest of us give a f*ck about this tiny minority?

Next time anyone complains we should tell them to just shut it, we don't care.

If they carry on give them a slap.

Then if they don't stop, find out where they live then organise the other 499 in 500 to go round and teach them some manners...

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On any Questions the figure of 130,000 people paying CGT regularly was quoted.

Why do the rest of us give a f*ck about this tiny minority?

Next time anyone complains we should tell them to just shut it, we don't care.

If they carry on give them a slap.

Then if they don't stop, find out where they live then organise the other 499 in 500 to go round and teach them some manners...

Because this 'tiny minority' provide vital capital to businesses. Discouraging their investment activity is incredibly stupid, even more so at the moment.

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Because this 'tiny minority' provide vital capital to businesses. Discouraging their investment activity is incredibly stupid, even more so at the moment.

No, that's the standard pat argument trotted out whenever there is talk of increases in CGT. To give them credit the Libs and Tories, understand that there is a distinction between CGT inflicted on wealth creators ie people that have created businesses and employed people and those that have simply milked the loose lending cow for years and loaded up with lots of btl properties. The former are wealth creators , the latter are simply people that have contributed to HPI and have not added one jot to wealth creation (other than their own). The salient question of course, is what proportion of the tiny minority are genuine wealth creators and what are simply carpetbaggers. I suspect the proportion of the tiny minority that are the former, is an even tinier minority.

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No, that's the standard pat argument trotted out whenever there is talk of increases in CGT. To give them credit the Libs and Tories, understand that there is a distinction between CGT inflicted on wealth creators ie people that have created businesses and employed people and those that have simply milked the loose lending cow for years and loaded up with lots of btl properties. The former are wealth creators , the latter are simply people that have contributed to HPI and have not added one jot to wealth creation (other than their own). The salient question of course, is what proportion of the tiny minority are genuine wealth creators and what are simply carpetbaggers. I suspect the proportion of the tiny minority that are the former, is an even tinier minority.

You all seems to be obsessing about housing market speculators, what about those investing in the stock market?

Edited by Boom Boom

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No, that's the standard pat argument trotted out whenever there is talk of increases in CGT. To give them credit the Libs and Tories, understand that there is a distinction between CGT inflicted on wealth creators ie people that have created businesses and employed people and those that have simply milked the loose lending cow for years and loaded up with lots of btl properties. The former are wealth creators , the latter are simply people that have contributed to HPI and have not added one jot to wealth creation (other than their own). The salient question of course, is what proportion of the tiny minority are genuine wealth creators and what are simply carpetbaggers. I suspect the proportion of the tiny minority that are the former, is an even tinier minority.

+1

if the capital appreciation amounts to speculative rather than entrepreneurial unearned income it should be taxed - there is already the very generous 10K capital gains allowance per person per year on which no tax is paid and the 40% is only putting it back to where it was before 2007. Agree with Mr Cable wholeheartedly

re stock market capital gains how many people make more than 10K a year on the stock market buying and selling shares and would therefore be subject to CGT tax on the amount over this.

Edited by olliegog

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No, that's the standard pat argument trotted out whenever there is talk of increases in CGT. To give them credit the Libs and Tories, understand that there is a distinction between CGT inflicted on wealth creators ie people that have created businesses and employed people and those that have simply milked the loose lending cow for years and loaded up with lots of btl properties. The former are wealth creators , the latter are simply people that have contributed to HPI and have not added one jot to wealth creation (other than their own). The salient question of course, is what proportion of the tiny minority are genuine wealth creators and what are simply carpetbaggers. I suspect the proportion of the tiny minority that are the former, is an even tinier minority.

is the CGT tax rise not a tax on both types tho'? does it not affect ltd businesses (etc)?

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Because this 'tiny minority' provide vital capital to businesses. Discouraging their investment activity is incredibly stupid, even more so at the moment.

They aren't investing, they're just out-bidding those who want to buy a home of their own, nothing more.

Evil bastards who deserve to stood up against a wall and shot.

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They aren't investing, they're just out-bidding those who want to buy a home of their own, nothing more.

Evil bastards who deserve to stood up against a wall and shot.

I keep brining up stock market investors, but you dolts keep ignoring the point. You are so transfixed on punishing housing speculators you are blind to the unintended consequences this move will have.

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You all seems to be obsessing about housing market speculators, what about those investing in the stock market?

Buying shares doesn't deprive others of owning their own home.

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Buying shares doesn't deprive others of owning their own home.

plus, with shares it is pretty easy to spread out the sale over multiple years in order to go below the 10k CGT allowance

it is lots to do with property because the indiviual assets are so high value and cannot be broken down into manageable chunks

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Exactly, but the intention is to clobber them with a CGT hike too.

oh yeah - you can keep shares in an ISA or pension wrapper to avoid this too

non-story I'm afraid

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Anyone hear Any Answers?

Bloke whinging because a painting his old man bought for £100 in the sixties, and which is now worth £200,000 - Yes £200K! - might attract 40% CGT.

Another woman who bought a 'couple of little houses' in the early '90's as an old age nest egg was whining about having to pay CGT

I've heard more whining today than you hear on the landing pads at Heathrow..

Pass the sick bag..

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I keep brining up stock market investors, but you dolts keep ignoring the point. You are so transfixed on punishing housing speculators you are blind to the unintended consequences this move will have.

I seem to remember there having been something . . . what was it called? oh yeah, a credit crunch which needed a bailout of the entire banking system which has led us into recession which needed massive stimulus and collapse of the pound with hundreds of thousands of people about to lose their jobs assuming the the final ultimate mage-crash doesn't wipe us all out before hand - one of the main causes of which was? Property Speculation. [Huge in take of breath]

Think of the proposed CGT rate hike as being price BTLers pay for monopolising property - and the very real distress caused to millions of others priced both out of the market in the first instance and now about to pay for BTL greed.

Edited by Dave Spart

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oh yeah - you can keep shares in an ISA or pension wrapper to avoid this too

non-story I'm afraid

ISA contributions are very limited and woefully insufficient for serious investors.

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I seem to remember there having been something . . . what was it called? oh yeah, a credit crunch which needed a bailout of the entire banking system which has led us into recession which needed massive stimulus and collapse of the pound with hundreds of thousands of people about to lose their jobs assuming the the final ultimate mage-crash doesn't wipe us all out before hand - one of the main causes of which was? Property Speculation. [Huge in take of breath]

Think of the proposed CGT rate hike as being price BTLers pay for monopolising property - and the very real distress caused to millions of others priced both out of the market in the first instance and now about to pay for BTL greed.

My greed? I own an appartment in Germany and I rent a property in the UK, I have no interest in what happens to the housing market. I am concerned that investment in the stock market is going to be hurt by this move.

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My greed? I own an appartment in Germany and I rent a property in the UK, I have no interest in what happens to the housing market. I am concerned that investment in the stock market is going to be hurt by this move.

Your whining.

"Oh poor little me, I'm rich enough to have a share portfolio while 90% of people in the Uk live hand-to-mouth, and I don't see why I should pay tax on the profits."

Edited by TaxAbuserOfTheWeek

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My greed? I own an appartment in Germany and I rent a property in the UK, I have no interest in what happens to the housing market. I am concerned that investment in the stock market is going to be hurt by this move.

99.9% of stocks are held by pensions schemes and investment operations like Warren Buffett's. They will not be affected by the proposed scheme, therefore the overall market will not be.

This CGT change is trivial compared with the real issues faced by the global economy.

Sorry to burst your bubble, and I realise its a big deal in individual terms, but a few hundred thousand people playing with a few hundred thousand pounds each is a trivial sideshow in macroeconomic terms.

So if you are worried about the market being crashed by CGT changes then you can relax.

If you are worried that your personal circumstances will suffer then fine worry. But don't come on here looking for sympathy or constructing contrived arguments, because, newsflash, your misfortunes won't affect the majority of people or the economy.

Nobody cares.

Now you may argue that if its a sideshow then why increase the tax?

Surely it will not be enough?

And you'd be right. The important thing about the CGT change is that its a statement of intent, a strong indicator of the direction of travel. Wealth is going to be have to be removed from millions of people for years to correct our economy, and the burden is going to be proportionate to the real wealth of each individual.

The way the wind is blowing it looks like the money thats going to be taken from people who have accumulated a lot of unearned income is going to be disproportionately high.

Good!

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Your whining.

"Oh poor little me, I'm rich enough to have a share portfolio while 90% of people in the Uk live hand-to-mouth, and I don't see why I should pay tax on the profits."

Taking more money from me isn't going to help them, indeed it may well hurt them as I and many other investors in the UK economy will redeploy our capital elsewhere.

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Taking more money from me isn't going to help them, indeed it may well hurt them as I and many other investors in the UK economy will redeploy our capital elsewhere.

I'll not repeat myself.

So instead, a new tack, how about doing it like Warren Buffett?

Research heavily, go visit companies & talk to them. Buy and hold solid stocks. No realised gain to tax. Lots of wealth.

Problem solved.

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I'll not repeat myself.

So instead, a new tack, how about doing it like Warren Buffett?

Research heavily, go visit companies & talk to them. Buy and hold solid stocks. No realised gain to tax. Lots of wealth.

Problem solved.

Or maybe I'll just move into spread betting, no tax, unfortunately the companies see no benefit, but so be it.

Edited by Boom Boom

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You all seems to be obsessing about housing market speculators, what about those investing in the stock market?

Lets get something straight here. When you "invest" in the stock market you are NOT helping to create and fund a business unless you bought the IPO. The only reason a share price is of importance is because of the amount of shares held by company insiders plus the amount in treasury which can be released and thus dilute the current shareholders.This talk about people who buy shares being the "lifeblood" of the country is BS. Oh and BTW most underwriters of IPO's (the big brokerages and investment banks) have long gone before the first AGM. Usually for a nice fat profit and underwriting fees to boot. Get with the picture-Wall Street and the City are the biggest rigged games in town.

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I keep brining up stock market investors, but you dolts keep ignoring the point.

You didn't make a point

You are so transfixed on punishing housing speculators you are blind to the unintended consequences this move will have.

It is supposed to have consequences - real estate speculation creates costs

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  • 142 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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