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rolf

Anti-Whaling Hypocrites

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I never get these people who don't want whales to be harpooned, seals to be clubbed or cats and dogs to be killed in China.

I agree, the methods are barbaric and should be banned. But why not start in your own back yard? Look at Halal butchery? Cutting the throat of an animal Ken Bigley style and letting it die in agony.

Some say that a slice to the throat is a humane way to die. Have you seen the videos on Youtube? There is one of a cow that is put into a machine to hold its neck open before the slice is made. It is absolutely disgusting and there are abbatoirs like this all over Europe now.

So my message to tree hugging muppets like this is to start at home!

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I never get these people who don't want whales to be harpooned, seals to be clubbed or cats and dogs to be killed in China.

I agree, the methods are barbaric and should be banned. But why not start in your own back yard? Look at Halal butchery? Cutting the throat of an animal Ken Bigley style and letting it die in agony.

Some say that a slice to the throat is a humane way to die. Have you seen the videos on Youtube? There is one of a cow that is put into a machine to hold its neck open before the slice is made. It is absolutely disgusting and there are abbatoirs like this all over Europe now.

So my message to tree hugging muppets like this is to start at home!

I think we've done the halal debate.

Having discussed it with some (non-radical) Moslems, the consensus was that the idea is OK but doesn't really lend itself to industrial-scale meat production, it's OK for raising a few goats etc, as was common at the time the idea was written.

I doubt animals or humans feel much if the blood supply to the brain is cut, you'd have to wire one up to test it.

I'd go further though, Rolf - to me non-vegetarians who blather on about animal cruelty but haven't the gumption, knowledge or guts to kill and prepare their own meat, and who buy typical supermarket meat, are hypocrites.

The veggies are right, meat really is murder. Even animals that have a "happy" free-range existence have an unpleasant end at the abattoir, and get quite some time to anticipate what's about to happen as they are lined up.

Deal with it, or raise/kill your own, or turn veggie.

Bit silly bringing whaling to the debate, it's just nasty and unnecessary.

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So my message to tree hugging muppets like this is to start at home!

Do you actually know many "tree hugging muppets"?

I'm a member of an anti-whaling group and I, and almost all others I know, are Vegan.

Admittedly I think that those who campaign for animals but aren't Vegan are hypocrites (including Vegetarians), but honestly, most people who care enough about an animal's welfare to actually donate some of their time to it tend to be Vegan, and if they're not it's usually because they haven't campaigned for very long and are yet to realise that campaigning for one species, while consuming another is pointless.

(edited for clarity)

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Do you actually know many "tree hugging muppets"?

I'm a member of an anti-whaling group and I, and almost all others I know, are Vegan.

Admittedly I think that those who aren't are hypocrites (including vegetarians), but honestly, most people who care enough about an animal's welfare to actually donate some of their time to it are Vegan, and if they're not it's because they haven't campaigned for very long and are yet to realise that campaigning for one species, while consuming another is pointless.

Well that's very good but what I also find hypocritical is when they preach to regular folk. Here's an example.

I once met a couple of women on Lewisham high street. They were against the killing of dogs and cats like you see down many a high street. Horrible pictures of skinned animals still alive etc. plastered all over a desk and the floor in front of it. Disgusting.

So I asked this woman why she was trying to get support? She said, "look, it's cats and dogs, we shouldn't be killing pets". I told her the animals were bred to be eaten, what about cows? She said that she was a vegan.

Very well, but at least don't use the "lovely pet" angle to convince others it is bad. Yes, the methods of killing are also inhumane, but then so is Halal butchery when you see an animal struggling, kicking out and trying to breathe. Reminds me of the Dagestan massacre videos of Russian conscripts by Chechen rebels.

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I'm a member of an anti-whaling group and I, and almost all others I know, are Vegan.

Admittedly I think that those who aren't are hypocrites (including vegetarians)...

I'm not quite getting you here; all those who do not belong to anti-whaling societies are hypocrites?

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Well that's very good but what I also find hypocritical is when they preach to regular folk. Here's an example.

I once met a couple of women on Lewisham high street. They were against the killing of dogs and cats like you see down many a high street. Horrible pictures of skinned animals still alive etc. plastered all over a desk and the floor in front of it. Disgusting.

I don't really get what she was campaigning against either, was it against the fact that dogs and cats are killed at all?

It's a shame some people come over as being preachy, it's counterproductive and makes people totally dismiss the cruelty they're trying to highlight.

So I asked this woman why she was trying to get support? She said, "look, it's cats and dogs, we shouldn't be killing pets". I told her the animals were bred to be eaten, what about cows? She said that she was a vegan.

What's wrong with her campaigning about one single issue at a time? She wants to highlight that issue on that day, possibly for a charity that's dedicated to that single issue and organised a day for volunteers all round the country to do a stall in the high street in their towns. That's probably where she got the posters from.

She's against the killing of animals for meat and doesn't eat them so I can't see how she's a hypocrite.

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I'm not quite getting you here; all those who do not belong to anti-whaling societies are hypocrites?

Sorry, I wasn't very clear, I've edited it a bit. Nah I mean that I do feel that people who campaign for one animal, while chomping down on another are hypocrites. I mentioned Vegetarians because they tend to be the preachy ones whilst choosing not to pay attention to the cruelty that exists in the dairy industry because it's inconvenient.

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If you can't see the difference between endangered wild animals and livestock bred for food it's going to be one of those threads..

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If you can't see the difference between endangered wild animals and livestock bred for food it's going to be one of those threads..

At the risk of making it 'one of those threads', please explain to me what the difference is.

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Sorry, I wasn't very clear, I've edited it a bit. Nah I mean that I do feel that people who campaign for one animal, while chomping down on another are hypocrites. I mentioned Vegetarians because they tend to be the preachy ones whilst choosing not to pay attention to the cruelty that exists in the dairy industry because it's inconvenient.

Fair enough.

We could get into the "If we didn't breed cattle/chickens/pigs/sheep for meat/dairy produce they would probably become extinct" though.

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Fair enough.

We could get into the "If we didn't breed cattle/chickens/pigs/sheep for meat/dairy produce they would probably become extinct" though.

Why would they? There are wild versions of each of those species.

Admittedly the ones we farm are ******ed up versions we've bred through thousands of years of selection. That's an ethical question which open to debate.

Personally I think the most ethical option would be to stop farming animals for food and let the ones who exist live out the rest of their lives in sanctuaries without purposefully breeding any more of them. That's my current view on it, but I think ethics is more of a learning process than being 'black or white', so please feel free to call me out on anything.

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I never get these people who don't want whales to be harpooned, seals to be clubbed or cats and dogs to be killed in China.

I agree, the methods are barbaric and should be banned. But why not start in your own back yard? Look at Halal butchery? Cutting the throat of an animal Ken Bigley style and letting it die in agony.

Some say that a slice to the throat is a humane way to die. Have you seen the videos on Youtube? There is one of a cow that is put into a machine to hold its neck open before the slice is made. It is absolutely disgusting and there are abbatoirs like this all over Europe now.

So my message to tree hugging muppets like this is to start at home!

I don't understand why you people who condem peoples choices of defending which animal they chose as to be hypocrites or tree huggers for some stupid other reason. And why should people such as vegatarians have to defend their ethics to satisfy those people who chose to eat meat and have to tolarate agression as if you need to be macho to or nontree hugging. If you are living in fear of muslims why don't you just say so instead of confusing the issues of mistreatment of animals and trying to blame those who are persistant and honest as they can be to their principles.

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I don't understand why you people who condem peoples choices of defending which animal they chose as to be hypocrites or tree huggers for some stupid other reason. And why should people such as vegatarians have to defend their ethics to satisfy those people who chose to eat meat and have to tolarate agression as if you need to be macho to or nontree hugging. If you are living in fear of muslims why don't you just say so instead of confusing the issues of mistreatment of animals and trying to blame those who are persistant and honest as they can be to their principles.

Well said that man.

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...let the ones who exist live out the rest of their lives in sanctuaries without purposefully breeding any more of them. That's my current view on it, but I think ethics is more of a learning process than being 'black or white', so please feel free to call me out on anything.

So you would be in favour of extinction of these "bred for purpose" species? I don't think it's ethics you are questioning.

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So you would be in favour of extinction of these "bred for purpose" species? I don't think it's ethics you are questioning.

Ideally, If the "bred for purpose" species we've created are able to be reintroduced to the wild (pigs, for example adapt perfectly fine back into the wild), then by all means reintroduce them in suitable numbers.

If not, then personally speaking, yes I would be. For example, If we've bred cows that have such oversized udders that they face health problems if they are not milked, then yes I favour them going extinct. As said before, they should be able to live out the rest of their lives in a sanctuary, preferably with calfs that were taken from them in the dairy farm. I've seen cows reunited with their calfs before, and words can't quite describe what it's like to see that.

I try not to think of it on a species level, and try to relate it to a human level. If we purpose bred a race of humans, for example's sake, a version of Chinese people who grew hair that was stronger than steel at an incredible rate (ridiculous, I know, but bear with me) and to ensure maximum productivity we kept them packed together, fed them the worst food imaginable and kept impregnating them and selling their children, then I would be as opposed to that as I would be any other non-human animal and would rather not forcedly breed further generations just to keep the species alive. That parallel might seem ridiculous, but it's just how I see things.

I don't think it's ethics you are questioning.

How so?

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Ideally, If the "bred for purpose" species we've created are able to be reintroduced to the wild (pigs, for example adapt perfectly fine back into the wild), then by all means reintroduce them in suitable numbers.

If not, then personally speaking, yes I would be. For example, If we've bred cows that have such oversized udders that they face health problems if they are not milked, then yes I favour them going extinct. As said before, they should be able to live out the rest of their lives in a sanctuary, preferably with calfs that were taken from them in the dairy farm. I've seen cows reunited with their calfs before, and words can't quite describe what it's like to see that.

I try not to think of it on a species level, and try to relate it to a human level. If we purpose bred a race of humans, for example's sake, a version of Chinese people who grew hair that was stronger than steel at an incredible rate (ridiculous, I know, but bear with me) and to ensure maximum productivity we kept them packed together, fed them the worst food imaginable and kept impregnating them and selling their children, then I would be as opposed to that as I would be any other non-human animal and would rather not forcedly breed further generations just to keep the species alive. That parallel might seem ridiculous, but it's just how I see things.

How so?

Ethics? You are way beyond the moral right and wrong once you begin to countenance the extinction of species you deem inappropriate.

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Ethics? You are way beyond the moral right and wrong once you begin to countenance the extinction of species you deem inappropriate.

I would argue that those who chose to purpose breed species for their own gain at the cost of unimaginable cruelty to said species are the ones beyond right and wrong.

I'm just aiming for damage control.

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Ethics? You are way beyond the moral right and wrong once you begin to countenance the extinction of species you deem inappropriate.

Do you draw a distinction between artificially created and unable to survive naturally and what is natural? Sounds like you've got a black and white definition of what's ethical and what isn't and base opinions on which box it's easiest to shoehorn a particular issue in to.

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I would argue that those who chose to purpose breed species for their own gain at the cost of unimaginable cruelty to said species are the ones beyond right and wrong.

I'm just aiming for damage control.

I would argue that we could not have evolved to the level we have attained without farming - farming being the cultivation and splicing/genetic engineering of crops and also the genetic engineering of animals - it's what we as humans, the dominant species, for better or for worse - at least we can argue about it - do.

Do you draw a distinction between artificially created and unable to survive naturally and what is natural? Sounds like you've got a black and white definition of what's ethical and what isn't and base opinions on which box it's easiest to shoehorn a particular issue in to.

What is, is, you are correct, see above.

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I would argue that we could not have evolved to the level we have attained without farming - farming being the cultivation and splicing/genetic engineering of crops and also the genetic engineering of animals - it's what we as humans, the dominant species, for better or for worse - at least we can argue about it - do.

We began to eat meat during our pre-human stage as Australopithecus to supplement our diet which was limited at the time due to the cold climate which made foraging harder. We started farming animals around the same time we started using slaves which was much further on as developed humans with a society that had started to transact within itself through bartering.

So here we are, we're humans, the all intelligent. So where are we going to evolve to now? Should we still use animal skins to keep ourselves warm even though we've developed synthetic alternatives? Should we still farm animals even though we are now aware of the environmental impact, and can survive on a plant based diet anyway?

Surely to be 'human' usually means to be ethical, just as to be 'inuman' is usually used to describe a person who lacks pity, kindness, or mercy.

So let's be as human as we can, and carry on evolving.

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I never get these people who don't want whales to be harpooned, seals to be clubbed or cats and dogs to be killed in China.

I agree, the methods are barbaric and should be banned. But why not start in your own back yard? Look at Halal butchery? Cutting the throat of an animal Ken Bigley style and letting it die in agony.

Some say that a slice to the throat is a humane way to die. Have you seen the videos on Youtube? There is one of a cow that is put into a machine to hold its neck open before the slice is made. It is absolutely disgusting and there are abbatoirs like this all over Europe now.

So my message to tree hugging muppets like this is to start at home!

It is very simple really. First you have to realise that animals have nothing to do with it at all.

These animal rights types and vegetarians and vegans et al actually don't give a tinker's cuss about animals. They are promoting themselves (who'd a thunk that of a human). It is just another version of I'm holier than thou. Thou art a sinner. Follow me and give me money and make me your leader and your reward will be in heaven. Animals are just the latest gimmick in the lead-the-sheeple game that has been going on since time began. They don't tackle Muslims and halal because the Muslims fight back and they might get hurt and they don't care about cows anyway so it would be totally unproductive for their self-promotion.

Plants don't count. They are alive but don't count. You can eat as many plants as you like along with Republicans, Tories and right-wingers generally because they don't count either. They don't count because they threaten me.

It's all politics man, nothing to do with animals, just politics, like everything else.

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It is very simple really. First you have to realise that animals have nothing to do with it at all.

These animal rights types and vegetarians and vegans et al actually don't give a tinker's cuss about animals. They are promoting themselves (who'd a thunk that of a human). It is just another version of I'm holier than thou. Thou art a sinner. Follow me and give me money and make me your leader and your reward will be in heaven. Animals are just the latest gimmick in the lead-the-sheeple game that has been going on since time began. They don't tackle Muslims and halal because the Muslims fight back and they might get hurt and they don't care about cows anyway so it would be totally unproductive for their self-promotion.

Plants don't count. They are alive but don't count. You can eat as many plants as you like along with Republicans, Tories and right-wingers generally because they don't count either. They don't count because they threaten me.

It's all politics man, nothing to do with animals, just politics, like everything else.

What a load of old nonsense

I'm not a veggie but I wouldn't dream of making the kind of simple minded generalisations about people's motivations behind their vegetarianism.

Your wrong headed position that it's purely a political gambit for socialist nutjobs would probably be news to my extremely right wing grandparents / Hitler / several hundred million Buddhists Hindus etc etc

If you're looking for people who are politicising dietary choices you might want to look closer to home.

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