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ken_ichikawa

Id Cards Not Cancelled

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Guest sillybear2

Yes, bad data is always a problem.

We have that problem at the moment, like people who get bad credit records when someone else has faked their ID.

So if a scammer gets onto a smaller database it can prove to be a problem in that area, so your solution to this is to allow the scammer to register on a central database thus granting them access to all the organs of state.

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No, i'm ignoring it as irrelevent to the question of what you would do to people who aren't interested in your schemes.

And? So what?

I asked you what you were willing to do to those like my gran who weren't interested in your little scheme.

Why should anyone ask to be removed?

Why don't you ask to put them on in the first place?

Pensioners do recieve money without the central database at the moment, so this is illogical.

But you are saying that as far as you are concerned, there is no need for a mandatory relationship with the state. Righto.

How many people do you think will be signing up for the database voluntarily, if they don't have to?

Injin, the Benefits National Insurance database contains a record of nearly everyone in the UK. I dont recall being asked to be put on it. And yet I am there. There is no opt out.

The government will gather this information whether you like it or not. And they cant function if they pay attention to troublemakers claiming it infringes this or that right. Government has a business to get on with. Looking after you Gran is one of those responsibilities and it cant do it if people as a whole refuse to act sensibly.

Let me try and answer your points as best I understand them.

"No, i'm ignoring it as irrelevent to the question of what you would do to people who aren't interested in your schemes." - Either the government will add your Gran anyway. Or give her an option to be removed, but that would also entail foresaking any benefits that the state hands out.

"Why should anyone ask to be removed?" - I get a bit confused with your arguments. Presumably someone asks to be removed because they dont like the idea of being on a central database. Bet they are on loads already mostly though, without any loss of sleep.

"Pensioners do recieve money without the central database at the moment, so this is illogical." - Well yes and no. There is a big national insurance database, which is quite like a big central database. It isnt a complete list of everyone known to the state, and from what I can remember, doesnt necessarily distinguish your nationality. But rest assured, your Gran is receiving her money because she is on a big central database, though one slightly different from the one that was dreamed up with regard to 'ID Cards'.

"But you are saying that as far as you are concerned, there is no need for a mandatory relationship with the state. Righto" - The state can act more efficiently if it knows who its citizens are. One way or another it has to find out from time to time with everyone. Having this information in one trusted place would be invaluable. At the moment, much time and effort is wasted chasing this identity information around disparate and often inconsistent databases and even paper records.

"How many people do you think will be signing up for the database voluntarily, if they don't have to?" - There are different ways to handle this. Remember, the government can build this information up whether you like it or not. When you register a birth for example, an ideal place to capture an individual, not much you can do about that at 1 day old. But people are more than happy to sign up for this sort of stuff. Huge numbers of people are delighted to give their details for passports, for benefits, for schooling, for medical care, for tax information on jobs (well not delighted, but most would rather have a job with tax than no job).

No one loses sleep about having personal information on all these systems unless they have other 'problems'. They benefit from them in the main.

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Oh, I think it does, not that its in the governments best interests to release accurate statistics and highlight how incompetent other areas of the government are.

The passport database isnt a complete record of UK citizens. It only records those citizens who have passports, not quite the same.

As for incompetence, a lot of the problems occur not due to incompetence, but the poor information upon which decisions are based. Improve the information, and the decisions improve. Indeed, get the data good enough, and let the bots make the decisions.

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So if a scammer gets onto a smaller database it can prove to be a problem in that area, so your solution to this is to allow the scammer to register on a central database thus granting them access to all the organs of state.

Ha, this is the argument where you falsely accuse me of saying something that I didnt say, and then rubbish the argument that I didnt make.

I never said anything about allowing scammers to register on a central database.

I was clear that the integrity of the database would need to be paramount. If you could get on their twice, for example, then you could in theory get paid benefits twice. I bet this happens a lot already with the current NI database, but very difficult to spot once you have done it. Likewise, if you were a foreign national, wanting a better life at someone else's expense, if you could get into the 'state' database, you could achieve that, and make everyone else in the 'state' a bit poorer.

No, integrity needs to be maintained, or else such a system would fail. Yes I support the idea of this system, but if the integrity of the database cannot be defended, then the system would undoubtedly fail and make us all much poorer.

Processes would have to be put in place to stop such things from occurring. I am thinking here of adding people to the 'state' either when they are born, or on completion of the 'naturalisation' process that we currently have in the UK. No doubt there are a few people living rough in the UK that are not known to anyone. We might need a special judicially controlled procedure to include these oddities as well.

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Injin, the Benefits National Insurance database contains a record of nearly everyone in the UK. I dont recall being asked to be put on it. And yet I am there. There is no opt out.

Not relevent to what I asked you.

The government will gather this information whether you like it or not. And they cant function if they pay attention to troublemakers claiming it infringes this or that right. Government has a business to get on with. Looking after you Gran is one of those responsibilities and it cant do it if people as a whole refuse to act sensibly.

Not relevent to what I asked you. Someone, somewhere is going to murder today - does this you are going to?

Let me try and answer your points as best I understand them.

"No, i'm ignoring it as irrelevent to the question of what you would do to people who aren't interested in your schemes." - Either the government will add your Gran anyway. Or give her an option to be removed, but that would also entail foresaking any benefits that the state hands out.

I didn't ask what the government would do.

I asked you. What would you be in favour of happening to my gran if she said "no thanks" ?

"Why should anyone ask to be removed?" - I get a bit confused with your arguments. Presumably someone asks to be removed because they dont like the idea of being on a central database. Bet they are on loads already mostly though, without any loss of sleep.

"Pensioners do recieve money without the central database at the moment, so this is illogical." - Well yes and no. There is a big national insurance database, which is quite like a big central database. It isnt a complete list of everyone known to the state, and from what I can remember, doesnt necessarily distinguish your nationality. But rest assured, your Gran is receiving her money because she is on a big central database, though one slightly different from the one that was dreamed up with regard to 'ID Cards'.

Does it have her DNA?

"But you are saying that as far as you are concerned, there is no need for a mandatory relationship with the state. Righto" - The state can act more efficiently if it knows who its citizens are. One way or another it has to find out from time to time with everyone. Having this information in one trusted place would be invaluable. At the moment, much time and effort is wasted chasing this identity information around disparate and often inconsistent databases and even paper records.

So people can say no to the state without anything further occuring, in your opinion?

This is a yes or no answer, btw. You either say "yes people can ignore the state on this" or "no, I think there should be penalties for non compliance."

So after that you either have to tell me what attacks you are personally in favour of towards my gran or agree that the whole thing is voluntary.

"How many people do you think will be signing up for the database voluntarily, if they don't have to?" - There are different ways to handle this. Remember, the government can build this information up whether you like it or not. When you register a birth for example, an ideal place to capture an individual, not much you can do about that at 1 day old. But people are more than happy to sign up for this sort of stuff. Huge numbers of people are delighted to give their details for passports, for benefits, for schooling, for medical care, for tax information on jobs (well not delighted, but most would rather have a job with tax than no job).

No one loses sleep about having personal information on all these systems unless they have other 'problems'. They benefit from them in the main.

ok, you seem to be missing my point.

Ill make it plainer.

What are you, personally willing to see happen to other human beings in order to get the system you favour?

Prison, torture, fines, confiscation, death?

What's your limit?

Or none and they can be left in peace and you will leave them alone.

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Guest sillybear2

Ha, this is the argument where you falsely accuse me of saying something that I didnt say, and then rubbish the argument that I didnt make.

I never said anything about allowing scammers to register on a central database.

That would be the outcome though, even with the best of intentions, look at the sort of idiots in government that a tasked to look such things.

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That would be the outcome though, even with the best of intentions, look at the sort of idiots in government that a tasked to look such things.

sillybear2, you may be right. I will take the opposite opinion for now.

One thing I think that we can agree on, if such a database were subject to widescale corruption, it would fall into disrepute.

Note, whilst there may be a lot of problems with the NI database, it probably isnt corrupted to any signficant degree. They do take pretty good care of their data, as far as I can tell. So it is possible.

But no guarantees.

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable

I just don't trust the buggers in charge.

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Not relevent to what I asked you.

Not relevent to what I asked you. Someone, somewhere is going to murder today - does this you are going to?

I didn't ask what the government would do.

I asked you. What would you be in favour of happening to my gran if she said "no thanks" ?

Does it have her DNA?

So people can say no to the state without anything further occuring, in your opinion?

This is a yes or no answer, btw. You either say "yes people can ignore the state on this" or "no, I think there should be penalties for non compliance."

So after that you either have to tell me what attacks you are personally in favour of towards my gran or agree that the whole thing is voluntary.

ok, you seem to be missing my point.

Ill make it plainer.

What are you, personally willing to see happen to other human beings in order to get the system you favour?

Prison, torture, fines, confiscation, death?

What's your limit?

Or none and they can be left in peace and you will leave them alone.

Injin, I think you need to calm down. No one is going to attack your Gran.

The most likely starting point for a national ID database, is to port over everyone on the National Insurance database. No need to duff your Gran up over that.

To be useful though, they will need to be very rigorous about adding new people to it. I think in one of the above posts that the three ways would be, registration at birth, naturalisation, and special requests to a court.

And it would be no different to what happens now if you dont register your child on the NI database. You dont get Child Benefit, nor any other benefits associated with it.

I can hardly think of any cases at all where parents have been so scared of the NI database that they have not claimed for Child Benefit and made their child disappear from the system.

So the system would operate perfectly well on a passive basis. People who want to be UK citizens will come to it. No need at all to coerce anyone.

Too right too, if you dont want to be British and all the benefits that can bring, you can just leave, no one stopping you.

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Injin, I think you need to calm down. No one is going to attack your Gran.

The most likely starting point for a national ID database, is to port over everyone on the National Insurance database. No need to duff your Gran up over that.

To be useful though, they will need to be very rigorous about adding new people to it. I think in one of the above posts that the three ways would be, registration at birth, naturalisation, and special requests to a court.

And it would be no different to what happens now if you dont register your child on the NI database. You dont get Child Benefit, nor any other benefits associated with it.

I can hardly think of any cases at all where parents have been so scared of the NI database that they have not claimed for Child Benefit and made their child disappear from the system.

So the system would operate perfectly well on a passive basis. People who want to be UK citizens will come to it. No need at all to coerce anyone.

Too right too, if you dont want to be British and all the benefits that can bring, you can just leave, no one stopping you.

Oh ok.

So if I want out all I have to do is write a letter and then all laws stop applying to me and all taxes cease to be levied on me.

Can you get me a link to the letter I have to send in?

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Injin, I think you need to calm down. No one is going to attack your Gran.

tv license?????

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interesting.

I'm not sure my elderly grandmother would agree.

What penslties do you think are fair in order to coerce her into doing things as you outline above?

Fines?

Confiscate her property?

Prison time?

you know better than that interface between head and AK47

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No one loses sleep about having personal information on all these systems unless they have other 'problems'. They benefit from them in the main.

They do lose sleep, but they have no voice when 'Computer says no'. A woman whose ex-partner runs up debts during her divorce is branded and loses her ability to transact at the same level as the rest of society. There is no recourse for her, and such a case is only the tip of the iceberg. In the future, automated systems will become so complex that decisions about your life and your freedoms will be made by people staring at a screen that is populated by backend systems that, by their nature, contain buggy code, poor algorithms and bad or corrupted data. Watch 'Brazil' for an entertaining take on this.

Once you are in a situation where the Government has 'total informational awareness', then amateurs and scumbags get to run our lives based on their interpretation, misunderstanding, or wilful misuse of the data and statistics. That, added to the amount of bad or poor quality data means that there is massive collateral damage caused to innocent people who can't transact as innocents due to having a blot on their record. The powers that be won't allow this to be corrected because it would corrupt their nice little system and its underpinning assumption that to allow anyone access to correct the data would cause a meaningless set of data as more and more manual errors and malicious changes are made. Having to correct all that data would also be an admission that the initial plan and projected costs were incorrect.

Once everyone is 'in the system' what happens when there is no budget to allow people to complain and have their data fixed?

Just as the use of computer models has allowed the refinement of the banking fraud, further high risk decisions will be made using these huge datasets. More ways of mass-manipulation will be possible.

I am all for efficiency, but we are not ants that need to be controlled by a Queen. We are humans, and anything that takes away from our diversity and independence will cause our failure.

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Guest sillybear2

Note, whilst there may be a lot of problems with the NI database, it probably isnt corrupted to any signficant degree. They do take pretty good care of their data, as far as I can tell. So it is possible.

But no guarantees.

There's more NI numbers than people now, people register because it opens the door to tax credits :-

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/693129/Peter-Hain-New-blow-National-Insurance-numbers-Given-to-illegal-immigrants.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-566068/Thousands-known-illegal-immigrants-STILL-got-National-Insurance-numbers-admit-ministers.html

Of course you could argue the NI database reflects reality and actually provides an accurate picture compared to the bull$hit official migration statistics, but for all the wrong reasons. I think theres a six month waiting time for non-EU migrants but after that it's party time!

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We have a kind of voluntary form of ID such as passports, driving licenses, non EU residents id cards...Compulsory ID is not necessary, It will not benefit anyone it will only cost and helps others to control, regulate and manipulate the masses....for reasons that might one day become necessary.

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I'm sorry, I asked what penalties do you think should she face if she doesn't want to join in?

Do you think she shoudl be -

Fined?

Have her stuff confiscated?

Put in prison?

Tortured?

What do you think is the appropriate level of punishment that my gran should face for not going along with your wishes?

Make her knit Shreddies for eternity?

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I don't think so - this is just typical NuLabour 'scorched earth' policy: make irreversible commitments to white elephant projects, so that even if a new government comes in, they can't do anything about it.

I thought it was a key principle that "no parliament can bind its successor".

Can't they just vote to change the law, whatever it is? And if the contractors squeal about "but the other lot signed an agreement" then vote to pass another law specifically stating that all contracts signed by Labour since 2009 at least, are invalid, and directing them to Gordon Brown's house if they want their money?

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Guest sillybear2

I thought it was a key principle that "no parliament can bind its successor".

Can't they just vote to change the law, whatever it is? And if the contractors squeal about "but the other lot signed an agreement" then vote to pass another law specifically stating that all contracts signed by Labour since 2009 at least, are invalid, and directing them to Gordon Brown's house if they want their money?

Only in terms of laws, that doesn't apply to contracts.

They can't really do much, aside from exclude the companies concerned from ever tendering any future government contracts unless the unwanted contracts are settled amicably, they were given enough warning last year not to enter into any ID card contracts. The real failure here is in the civil service, it was a cynical attempt on their part to try and bind the next government when they should have stalled the policy or littered the contracts with get out clauses.

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Guest X-QUORK

One of the early adopters who keenly handed over his £30 for an ID card was on the Today program trying to defend them this morning. He breathlessly told Evan Davis how he could travel anywhere in Europe without the inconvenience of carrying a passport, and that he could easily open bank accounts with it. Well, he still needed to show them his photo driving licence because the ID card didn't have his address on, but it was still really useful (for some reason).

Sooo, for £18 billion we get to leave our passports at home when travelling in Europe. Awesome.

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Injin, I think you need to calm down. No one is going to attack your Gran.

The most likely starting point for a national ID database, is to port over everyone on the National Insurance database. No need to duff your Gran up over that.

To be useful though, they will need to be very rigorous about adding new people to it.....

Yeah and maybe fine people 2 grand if they fail to update it.

You're idea is sh1t. If you can not be on the database if you don't want to be that means you must be able to leave it. A bit like Facebook - we'll "delete" you if we feel like it.

Why can you not understand the simple fact that many people just do not trust the authorities with the data? The DVLA sells its data to anyone that wants it. Data is extracted from the NHS for totally legitimate reasons to measure efficiency of treatments and the like. Education data is used similarly.

Put all the data together and the potential for a ballsup of monumental proportions is such that it is inevitable.

These are legitimate reasons to not want to be on the database.

But in your neo-fascist world the penalty for failing to be on the database is withdrawal of rights that other citizens have. You may not want to bash Injun's gran over the head with a crowbar, but you would happily cut off her pension and deny her healthcare. The database proposed by the previous government was something Stalin would have been proud of. Not only did it have all your personal details it recorded every time you used the ID. Computer storage technology is such that this data could be held forever and for little cost. Now add in everything else that can be gathered up cheaply like phone records, emails, internet usage records. You whole life record there for anyone that wants to look at it, the local council to see if you are cheating on your parking permit can see which porn sites you visit. The guy checking the record is a temporary minimum wage employee working for a sub-contractor.

I'm no Tory - I'm just about as far the other end of the spectrum as you can get - but it fills my heart with joy that this has happened. I will put up with the toffs being in power for the next five years with pleasure now that this idea has been scrapped. My fear is that it will resurface or sneak in through the back door.

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Guest X-QUORK

I'm no Tory - I'm just about as far the other end of the spectrum as you can get - but it fills my heart with joy that this has happened. I will put up with the toffs being in power for the next five years with pleasure now that this idea has been scrapped. My fear is that it will resurface or sneak in through the back door.

Very similar to my position.

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  • 201 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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