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I was at one of the NHS Trusts we look after yesterday; they are making Radiographers redundant. These people take your X-rays and provide a front line service.

I would get ill now, if you are planning to. We'll be back at the 18 month waiting lists of 1997 before you know it.

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The trouble is they have the wrong people making the decisions. If you're a senior manager in the NHS and you get told to cut jobs, you won't cut the layers of managers below you because, if you do that, your empire shrinks and, heaven forbid, you might have to do more work yourself.

No, much easier to get rid of some medical staff.

They should appoint independent people to do this.

Put me into Royal Berks NHS trust and I'll sack half the administrators - and the hospital will run better afterwards.

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The trouble is they have the wrong people making the decisions. If you're a senior manager in the NHS and you get told to cut jobs, you won't cut the layers of managers below you because, if you do that, your empire shrinks and, heaven forbid, you might have to do more work yourself.

Radiology workflow is far more efficient than it was 10 years ago. New machines will do a lot of the work for you - so you tell it you want a chest x-ray for an adult, and the source is positioned in the right place, power is calculated, and the radiographer makes sure the patient is in the correct place. If you're in a hurry, you can do plain film pictures in less than 2 minutes. 10 years ago, it took 5 - 10 minutes. New digital machines don't need cassettes loading and unloading etc. Clearly the more complex stuff is still very hard, and I'm not knocking the role of the radiographer in the slightest - but they can cover a lot more ground per person than they used to.

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The trouble is they have the wrong people making the decisions. If you're a senior manager in the NHS and you get told to cut jobs, you won't cut the layers of managers below you because, if you do that, your empire shrinks and, heaven forbid, you might have to do more work yourself.

No, much easier to get rid of some medical staff.

They should appoint independent people to do this.

No manager would sack other managers as this would only increase their own workload. There's clearly vested intrests in the decision making and I agree the decisions should be made by an independent body. However this has quango written all over it, and I thought we we're getting rid of these.

Put me into Royal Berks NHS trust and I'll sack half the administrators - and the hospital will run better afterwards.

No it wouldn't it would make things ten times worse, unless you removed over half the necessary paperwork beforehand.

Getting rid of the provider and commissioning split would go a long way into achieving this.

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You don't see the forces at work here.

With less radiographers, less people get diagnosed and therefore they only get diagnosed when it is far too late to treat them.

So the NHS saves money in not being able to save them rather than saving them which costs more, and with huge amounts of unemployment anyway when this person dies horribly they can be replaced by an unemployed person.

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It is exactly as expected, you can have 10 managers for ever bin collector and they will chose to cut the collectors. This ensures maximum disruption and calls to restore funding. They have to hit the people on the front line because nobody would notice if the 'cultural diversity officers' were cut and nobody would care if they went on strike.

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In my lifetime I have seen they be shortages of radiographers, then massive training for radiographers leading to a glut and back and forth a few times.

I am told, whether it is true or not, that a trust not far from me basically employs mostly trainee radiographers and physios, with a few long-term staff to manage them, who, once they have completed their training, are replaced with more trainee radiographers and physios who they can hire for peanuts.

I suppose it is another example of middle management no-skills earning fat salaries whilst those who can are treated like dirt - sums up Labour's Britain.

To answer your question, I suspect lot of public sector types will get 5 figure pay-offs so they may well buy.

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No it wouldn't it would make things ten times worse, unless you removed over half the necessary paperwork beforehand.

Getting rid of the provider and commissioning split would go a long way into achieving this.

I know a bit about this - I've worked for various bits of the NHS over the last 10 years. I can tell you that there is an enormous number of people working in the NHS who are completely unproductive. They are not involved, in any way, with the process of administering, or treating, patients.

A lot of them are not involved in 'paperwork' in the sense that they are not involved in a 'process' that requires information to be processed and/or actions to be taken. They are involved in 'ensuring the strategic objectives of the trust are delivered' and other such middle managment goobledegook.

Have you any idea how many organisations are involved in health? I can tell you they number in the tens of thousands - and I am not talking about NHS Trusts or Drug Manufacturers. I am talking about the 'National Society for this' and the 'Association of Clinical that'. They are advisory and lobbying bodies that are (mostly) publicly funded and they employ hundreds of thousands of people.

The NHS is the biggest employer in the world - bar the Chinese Army.

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I know a bit about this - I've worked for various bits of the NHS over the last 10 years. I can tell you that there is an enormous number of people working in the NHS who are completely unproductive. They are not involved, in any way, with the process of administering, or treating, patients.

A lot of them are not involved in 'paperwork' in the sense that they are not involved in a 'process' that requires information to be processed and/or actions to be taken. They are involved in 'ensuring the strategic objectives of the trust are delivered' and other such middle managment goobledegook.

Have you any idea how many organisations are involved in health? I can tell you they number in the tens of thousands - and I am not talking about NHS Trusts or Drug Manufacturers. I am talking about the 'National Society for this' and the 'Association of Clinical that'. They are advisory and lobbying bodies that are (mostly) publicly funded and they employ hundreds of thousands of people.

The NHS is the biggest employer in the world - bar the Chinese Army.

A few years ago a well-known software company got a gig from the Welsh Asembly to do some, I would call it basic, modernisation of the various NHS Trusts in Wales - put in latest version of Windows, try to get people on the same colloborative tool, etc.

I worked on the project going around the Trusts informing them of this and, apart from finding some Trusts very keen and others totally hostile, I was staggered about how many layers of management existed in Wales the Trust and then Health Boards - basically loads of QUANGOs that, I believe, the majority of the Public have no idea exist.

IMPO they just seemed to issue rules, regs and paperwork. There must have been hundreds, if not a few thousand, who could be fired and no one would know.

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At some point we need a government that actually can manage things sanely. Like managers who don't just hire other managers and give each other bonuses while reducing frontline staff.

The only way I really could imagine this happening is a fascist government with a dictator with enough force of will to force them to do their job properly. The problem in a democracy is it seems the politicians are never strong enough individually to move against the government bureaucracy.

While the government bureaucracy was small and growing this didn't matter too much. But today it matters a lot. We see even with a frozen budget, frontline staff are getting fired, so that managers can get generous wage increases and so that more managers can be added.

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Another couple of years and a visit to your local hospital with find one doctor one nurse and an army of management consultants shuffling behind them

telling them how they can save a penny by using one stitch less on wounds and then giving them a £1000 bill for the advice.

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I know a bit about this - I've worked for various bits of the NHS over the last 10 years. I can tell you that there is an enormous number of people working in the NHS who are completely unproductive. They are not involved, in any way, with the process of administering, or treating, patients.

A lot of them are not involved in 'paperwork' in the sense that they are not involved in a 'process' that requires information to be processed and/or actions to be taken. They are involved in 'ensuring the strategic objectives of the trust are delivered' and other such middle managment goobledegook.

Have you any idea how many organisations are involved in health? I can tell you they number in the tens of thousands - and I am not talking about NHS Trusts or Drug Manufacturers. I am talking about the 'National Society for this' and the 'Association of Clinical that'. They are advisory and lobbying bodies that are (mostly) publicly funded and they employ hundreds of thousands of people.

The NHS is the biggest employer in the world - bar the Chinese Army.

Scale down or get rid of the need for the gobbledegook, then cut the staff (not the other way round). I’m not sure how the dozen or so auxiliary nurses left on a hospital ward can meet the various Quality and Performance Indicator requirements.

The amount of time and resource wasted by the NHS agreeing and ensuring provider/commissioning contract agreements would make everyone on here reach for the Kalashnikov. I’m nearly at that point myself.

Still at least the lawyers are happy.

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Another couple of years and a visit to your local hospital with find one doctor one nurse and an army of management consultants shuffling behind them

telling them how they can save a penny by using one stitch less on wounds and then giving them a £1000 bill for the advice.

That is basically how the Soviet Union ended up - and the path we are clearly on. The Soviet Union had office block after office block full of managers, consultants, paper pushers and box tickers.. and less and less people doing real work. Until eventually the economy could not provide basic neccessities.

Stalin had the force of will to keep the bureaucracy small, focused and useful, but later leaders did not.

I'm sure all of you have seen in jobs this tremendous desire of people to not do their job.. and instead work on paper pushing activities the whole day. Like a poster mentioned on another thread senior nurses who somehow view nursing as below them, to be pushed onto the auxilary nurses.

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That is basically how the Soviet Union ended up - and the path we are clearly on. The Soviet Union had office block after office block full of managers, consultants, paper pushers and box tickers.. and less and less people doing real work. Until eventually the economy could not provide basic neccessities.

Stalin had the force of will to keep the bureaucracy small, focused and useful, but later leaders did not.

I'm sure all of you have seen in jobs this tremendous desire of people to not do their job.. and instead work on paper pushing activities the whole day. Like a poster mentioned on another thread senior nurses who somehow view nursing as below them, to be pushed onto the auxilary nurses.

See this everywhere and I just don't get it, I would be so bored! People who just do the bare minimum to get by.

Mind you, actually doing the work puts you in the firing line...

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NHS kidney research unit I know of carried out more kidney test perfusions in February and March than in the previous 9 months combined...the reason? To make them look busy before year end and get the money spent. Come the new financial year there is absolutely no money for consumables (enzymes etc) so the research staff of 7 postdocs/RAs are twiddling their thumbs. Combined salary must be 250k per year.

The "lab manager" there has never done a day's work...just pushes paper, so getting shot of that dead wood would free up a load of money for transplants and research.

Chances of lab manager sacking himself for the greater good?

slim.

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Except the NHS is more expensive.

I doubt the average Chinese grunt has to worry about their mandatory safeguarding adults training every three years.

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These managers won’t be able to keep this pretence up indefinitely; however will they follow the “Nulabour” scorched earth policy as they are cut? Is that what we are seeing at the moment. :angry:

Sadly what’s needed are people that know their trade and can do the job without having to account for every sheet of bog paper used. That concept is totally alien to NuLabour’s mantra of boiling away skill and knowledge and replacing it with micro-management.

As has been pointed out, will this coalition have the guts for this? They might think they can dodge this. The media will have a field day using freedom of information requests.

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Radiology workflow is far more efficient than it was 10 years ago. New machines will do a lot of the work for you - so you tell it you want a chest x-ray for an adult, and the source is positioned in the right place, power is calculated, and the radiographer makes sure the patient is in the correct place. If you're in a hurry, you can do plain film pictures in less than 2 minutes. 10 years ago, it took 5 - 10 minutes. New digital machines don't need cassettes loading and unloading etc. Clearly the more complex stuff is still very hard, and I'm not knocking the role of the radiographer in the slightest - but they can cover a lot more ground per person than they used to.

A bit off topic, but I read somewhere that even radiology is being outsourced now- in the US at least. Sounds crazy to me but I guess if you sent the output to india the interpretation could be done there?

Any idea if this is really going on?

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I would get ill now, if you are planning to. We'll be back at the 18 month waiting lists of 1997 before you know it.

We already are, it never changed after 1997.

I was referred last year, and was given a bit of paper to book my own appointment online.

I went online, and it told me to ring up. I rang up, and they said i couldn't get on the waiting list yet, and that they would contact me in about 8 to 10 months, at which point i would be put on the list. I would then be given an appointment date which would be about 4 months after that.

They told me i would keep getting letters telling me that i still hadn't booked an appointment, but that i should "just ignore them"

The current waiting list figures are utter ********. You have to wait a year before they even put you on the ******ing waiting list.

Thank god for my private medical.

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We already are, it never changed after 1997.

I was referred last year, and was given a bit of paper to book my own appointment online.

I went online, and it told me to ring up. I rang up, and they said i couldn't get on the waiting list yet, and that they would contact me in about 8 to 10 months, at which point i would be put on the list. I would then be given an appointment date which would be about 4 months after that.

They told me i would keep getting letters telling me that i still hadn't booked an appointment, but that i should "just ignore them"

The current waiting list figures are utter ********. You have to wait a year before they even put you on the ******ing waiting list.

Thank god for my private medical.

I've just been through the process of being referred by my doctor to see a consultant - I was telephoned about a week later to ask if I wanted to be treated in the local NHS trus hospital or in a private hospital that does work for the NHS (this would be quicker) - opted for private - saw consultant 4-5 weeks later, MRI scan 4-5 weeks later, appointment with consultant 4-5 weeks later, operation 6 weeks later. Whole thing took abouta bit under 6 months and my condition was not urgent. Going to follow up physio now - all included in the price to the NHS.

I have to say, I don't see how it could be much better. Guess I've been lucky.

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