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HOLA441

Anyone can get a job as a programmer in IT.

That's the f*cking problem. The industry is full of people who went to uni and "learned how to become programmers".

They can reproduce stuff they've seen before but can't apply solutions to other unrelated problems.

It's the reason so many IT projects fail. Too many people who aren't IT people in IT jobs.

There are too many people in IT who are "qualified" but not "skilled".

You can't learn to be a geek. Either you are, or you aren't. If you aren't then a geek like me will have to clean up your mess.

Ask yourself this question: How many fully working PCs do you own. If the answer is less than 3, you're not a geek, and if you get a job in IT we have to hunt you down and kill you.

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HOLA442

I'd imagine the pay grade is based on experience, and in IT, experience is usually worth paying for.

If a graduate got that job, he or she would probably start at £14k. That is too low in my opinion, but what do I know :lol: I'm an IT drop out.

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HOLA443

Spoken like someone whose familiarity with IT begins and ends with their facebook page.

Oh dear BB, you really are living in the past,

I have an HND in computer technology, just as an add on to my core skills.

IT is not a career anymore, it's just a skill that must be learnt to get on.

Like I said IT gurus are worth thier wieght in gold but thats probably about 0.005 percent of those who still think IT is still the place to be.

Now move on to IA etc and you might be on to a good thing ;)

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HOLA444

Oh who actually cares. The council should probably have outsourced it to India, after all, there's precious little incentive left in the UK for universities to train engineers and computer scientists, unless of course they want to work in India.

Let's face it, the lesson we must learn in humility at seeing so many jobs that were once taken for granted disappear to cheaper places is worth more than the job ever will be. Let us see where a prosperous IT economy gets India 10 years down the line. Will it have improved living standards and working conditions for the masses? Will they turn around and realise that they too have been played by the global capital pushers and that the Eskimos are now cheaper than the average Bangalore IT graduate?

If there's one thing for sure, nothing will change unless the rules of the game can be changed. Nothing will change all the time cost savings are the primary motive for any corporation. Money surely is the root of all evil. When monetarism is the overriding principle in so many political and economic decisions, there can be no real long term winners. It's a race to the bottom, a race to hell on Earth.

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HOLA445

Anyone can get a job as a programmer in IT.

That's the f*cking problem. The industry is full of people who went to uni and "learned how to become programmers".

They can reproduce stuff they've seen before but can't apply solutions to other unrelated problems.

It's the reason so many IT projects fail. Too many people who aren't IT people in IT jobs.

There are too many people in IT who are "qualified" but not "skilled".

You can't learn to be a geek. Either you are, or you aren't. If you aren't then a geek like me will have to clean up your mess.

Ask yourself this question: How many fully working PCs do you own. If the answer is less than 3, you're not a geek, and if you get a job in IT we have to hunt you down and kill you.

Exactly, I have three desktops, which I built myself, two laptops, and a bloody WII which wont speak to my bloody wireless router.

Still I'm getting intimate with it this weekend and hoping to solve the issue.

Anyone have any component diagrams for a WII yet?

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HOLA446
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HOLA449

IT is a tool isn't it.

As Injin said, reading and writing were rare skills at one point.

IT is a great tool that a talented person can use to create value. So is a pencil - you could write a novel with it. You will have to learn how to sharpen the pencil if you want to write a novel. You'll have to learn how to code if you want to create a computer programme, but it is the ideas you bring to the process that add the value.

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HOLA4410
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HOLA4411

Why would you want to Code HTML? There are so many tools out there which create HTML. HTML is not coding, its no more skilled than data entry.

I believe the photo was done as a hoax in 2000 dot com crash. I guess it was more relevant then. Then again we were taught Basic in our Business degree in 1988, which was already a useless language by then.

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HOLA4412

Why would you want to Code HTML? There are so many tools out there which create HTML. HTML is not coding, its no more skilled than data entry.

The photo is from around 2001 during the dot.com crash. Razorfish laid off a bunch of people at that time.

You are right in some respects about HTML. There are a lot more great templates and tools now than there was in 2001. And for most people they'll do the job just fine. But crafting great HTML/CSS which is valid, accessible, works with multiple browsers (even their quirks) and reproduces good looking layouts is a skill that commands a premium (we're obviously not talking banker style incomes but you can make a decent living from it). Even tools like Dreamweaver will only get you so far.

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HOLA4413

Anyone can get a job as a programmer in IT.

That's the f*cking problem. The industry is full of people who went to uni and "learned how to become programmers".

They can reproduce stuff they've seen before but can't apply solutions to other unrelated problems.

It's the reason so many IT projects fail. Too many people who aren't IT people in IT jobs.

There are too many people in IT who are "qualified" but not "skilled".

You can't learn to be a geek. Either you are, or you aren't. If you aren't then a geek like me will have to clean up your mess.

Ask yourself this question: How many fully working PCs do you own. If the answer is less than 3, you're not a geek, and if you get a job in IT we have to hunt you down and kill you.

Totally agree. However you can learn to be a not too scared of slightly techie stuff but not really be a geek type.

I agree with what you say. Non geeky people going into IT - not smart.

They should go into the business side of it and be the not too scared of slightly techie stuff but not really be a geek type. The business side of things always like someone who is even ever so slightly techie. And they dont get access to any important systems either so very little risk. If they can produce a button that will update a graph in 2 seconds rather than Agnes who does it daily for an hour ? They will be sought after and very rarely out of work.

In fact why am I telling everyone this. :lol:

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HOLA4414

This thread appears to be attracting IT geeks.

I was lost after the 2nd line of the job ad!

Are the requirements in the ad standard or asking a lot for the pay?

Not all of us wear sandals and smell of cheese, so help us out ;)

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HOLA4415

Given that the skills for such a role are fairly common, surely it would be the case that managerial jobs would also be set at this level. After all, who couldn't, in all reality, arrange a few meetings, bollock people more intelligent than them for not meeting targets that were set for them by said manager in all ignorance of the work involved etc. Yet managers are paid so much more than the productive staff. Why? What is it that they do that is so special? Ok, there's the stress, the burden of responsibility etc. But I honestly can't see why an IT manager is paid more than say, a tech lead (I'm being a bit glib, as I do know some techs that are paid a king's ransom tbh). But in general, managers are ten a penny, why do they still command high pay. The same logic does not apply for different jobs.

In reality, many people get paid because of duration of service, rather than necessarily the skills they profess. I'm sure it's even worse in the public sector, where many would be promoted soley for their doublespeak skill (which could be learn in a 2 day course IMHO, though the ethic may not come naturally to some - myself included), and their ability to kiss bum cheek.

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HOLA4416

This thread appears to be attracting IT geeks.

I was lost after the 2nd line of the job ad!

Are the requirements in the ad standard or asking a lot for the pay?

Not all of us wear sandals and smell of cheese, so help us out ;)

I am not an IT geek so don't know. How common this mix of skills is - I don't have a clue.

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HOLA4417

It just proves that University degrees are no guarantee of a better income. In fact there are so many 'degrees' now many of them are regarded by employers as worthless. However it may have ended with a £15k debt!

A bin man with overtime or a community beat officer would earn more.

We may be better off with less degrees and more vocational training for jobs that need doing and for skills which create wealth. Too many geeks spoil your hard drive.

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HOLA4418

It just proves that University degrees are no guarantee of a better income. In fact there are so many 'degrees' now many of them are regarded by employers as worthless. However it may have ended with a £15k debt!

A bin man with overtime or a community beat officer would earn more.

We may be better off with less degrees and more vocational training for jobs that need doing and for skills which create wealth. Too many geeks spoil your hard drive.

Community beat officers earn around £50k where I live. Or do you mean comunity support officers?

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HOLA4419

That job will be filled by some young guy out of College who's done a bit of VB/PHP in his spare time. My brother (20 years old) made a website for himself out of boredom, taught himself PHP/HTML, and got a job very similar to that for a council.

I'm in a similar low wage IT job (I am 23), doing it for a secondary school. They expect these positions to be filled by younger people who do it for a few years then move on.

You can still get decent jobs in IT, but I wouldn't recommend it as an industry for people with no interest to enter. It pains me a little when I hear (for example) middle-aged ex factory workers comment "I'm learning computers to go into IT" when it's patently clear they've got no real interest in it - sounds like a recipe to end up stuck in a £6 P/A helpdesk job - even worse than working in a factory to begin with.

A lot of the support I do in the School involves supporting shit software. I bet thousands of man hours are wasted across the UK's schools alone sorting out buggy, poorly coded, outsourced crap.

I do some other work, transferring VHS to DVD's/WMV's, mounting screens, running cables, etc. It's alright tbh, better than the jobs I've had in corporate offices (see the corporate thread in the OT forum...) Not a job I can afford to buy a house on mind :lol:

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HOLA4420

Christ, these threads appear every now and again, be-little the programmer job, monkey could do it....it's all going offshore...blah..blah..blah...rinse...repeat

If your good and work hard, your valued. That's across industries, it's not what your trade skills are that matter, it's how you apply them that create value in business. The skill wish list in this case only tells half the story, will very likely be in an environment with zero responsibility, zero decision making and zero design, it probably got zero analysis needed, and zero client\customer facing elements. I suspect that in reality the job would really just scratch at the surface of the power that mish-mash of technologies can provide in the right hands, working toward a well defined objective designed by the steakholder.

If you have those skills and know how to apply them, and know how to undertake business analysis and project management you don't need to work for that, and if you did have all that demonstrable on your CV you would likely NOT be getting called to an interview, as you would be clearly over qualified for the pay grade. The top end of that job pay scale is just a couple of k below what my employer has a junior programmer on just now, 3 month temp contract - someone who we will likely keep on and give a boost to when we do, as he has done well, shown aptitude and skill and look like they could grow to a level above entry level programming.

Too many people think that having the skills or the qualification on the bit of paper is what matters - it's not, commercial experience is king. Always will be. Eat a little shit to start with, get experience, eat less shit, get more experience, eventually you forget what shit tastes like. I have lost count of the number of times I see graduates thinking the world is going to just come to them after they get their bit of paper.....bad news...it's not.

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HOLA4421
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HOLA4422

That job will be filled by some young guy out of College who's done a bit of VB/PHP in his spare time. My brother (20 years old) made a website for himself out of boredom, taught himself PHP/HTML, and got a job very similar to that for a council.

I'm in a similar low wage IT job (I am 23), doing it for a secondary school. They expect these positions to be filled by younger people who do it for a few years then move on.

You can still get decent jobs in IT, but I wouldn't recommend it as an industry for people with no interest to enter. It pains me a little when I hear (for example) middle-aged ex factory workers comment "I'm learning computers to go into IT" when it's patently clear they've got no real interest in it - sounds like a recipe to end up stuck in a £6 P/A helpdesk job - even worse than working in a factory to begin with.

A lot of the support I do in the School involves supporting shit software. I bet thousands of man hours are wasted across the UK's schools alone sorting out buggy, poorly coded, outsourced crap.

I do some other work, transferring VHS to DVD's/WMV's, mounting screens, running cables, etc. It's alright tbh, better than the jobs I've had in corporate offices (see the corporate thread in the OT forum...) Not a job I can afford to buy a house on mind :lol:

Please read what I have posted on this thread. It is in your interests. ;)

In a couple of years you could be earning a lot of money if you aim for the right areas. Become a techie where there are no other techies. As long as you have some people skills and are not a complete cone head - you will be fine.

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HOLA4423

Christ, these threads appear every now and again, be-little the programmer job, monkey could do it....it's all going offshore...blah..blah..blah...rinse...repeat

+1.

Some of the replies in this thread are nonsense.

A suitable applicant for that job could easily earn 35-40k or more in London. 14-20k is very stingy, even for Liverpool!

But like codeine says the job will probably be filled by someone young and keen, fresh out of college or university who'll get some experience and quickly move on. I know because I've been there myself. I've just had one such person temp for me in our office, we were paying him quite a bit more than that, around £15p/h, and all we wanted was someone with html, xml and a bit of experience with digital media files. He's now got himself a well paid permanent job as a web developer for a television production company.

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HOLA4424

But like codeine says the job will probably be filled by someone young and keen, fresh out of college or university who'll get some experience and quickly move on. I know because I've been there myself. I've just had one such person temp for me in our office, we were paying him quite a bit more than that, around £15p/h, and all we wanted was someone with html, xml and a bit of experience digital media files. He's now got himself a well paid permanent job as a web developer for a television production company.

Did the same myself, used to drive 1 1/2 hours to work for under 18k, the job wanted every programming skill ever invented (of which i had none), but i got a huge amount of learning and experience out of it, i moved on to better things and another young guy took my place, the role was a revolving door but each person gained something from it.

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HOLA4425

+1.

Some of the replies in this thread are nonsense.

A suitable applicant for that job could easily earn 35-40k or more in London. 14-20k is very stingy, even for Liverpool!

But like codeine says the job will probably be filled by someone young and keen, fresh out of college or university who'll get some experience and quickly move on. I know because I've been there myself. I've just had one such person temp for me in our office, we were paying him quite a bit more than that, around £15p/h, and all we wanted was someone with html, xml and a bit of experience digital media files. He's now got himself a well paid permanent job as a web developer for a television production company.

What he says. The fact it asks for HTML and no CSS makes me think that the person who wrote this ad had no idea what they really wanted. Also the fact that they want a programmer proficient in Java and .net is also a bit of a give away IMO. I employ people of a similar skillset (competent html/css guys and also java devs) for £30k - £45k in the SE. and we do FUN stuff so people don't mind taking a bit of a pay hit to work on it. No idea about Liverpool but considering the BBC have had a major relocation to the NW i'd be surprised if someone who was competent at both java and .net would considering working for 20k.

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