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Democracy Under Serious Threat


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:lol:

No, no wind up I'm afraid.

52% is a majority and so is 59.

If you don't see the truth of that then I'd expect you to push for a Lab Con coalition, anything else would not be democratic since they'd have a majority with the greatest margin.

You assume wrongly that all those who vote LibDem are supporters of Labour. This is silly, if LibDems supported Labour, perhaps they would vote Labour, and there would be no LibDem party.

In my part of the world, the LibDems hate the Labour lot with a passion.

Of course, if it is all about power and to hell with the electorate... welcome to the new politics - the post-democratic age.

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I agree that the electorate has been roundly ignored for many years. On that I'm with you. The socialists have savaged British civil liberties in a way that is almost beyond belief. This has offended conservatives and liberals across Britain. The conservatives have been offended by immigration, and the liberals have been offended by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It goes on. But this is because the socialists had too big a majority in 1997 and abused it dreadfully.

What we should not do in reaction to this abuse is introduce a voting system that will enfranchise fascists and communists and other extremists. In resigning, Brown has effectively tried to overturn the electorate's decision to remove the Left from power and install a voting system that will ensure the conservatives can never again form a government, but will also put fascists in the Commons. For this, and this alone, Labour have to be flushed down the Thames for 10 years. Only one party can do that.

If Clegg allies with the Labour Party, I feel the English might just rise up and riot.

Either you support proportional representation or you don't. 'More representitive' doesn't cut it with me because it is merely another mechanism to crowd out smaller interests. *If* you believe that each varying intertest that gets at least 1/650th of the votes should be represented in Parliament you must be prepared to accept the bad with the good.

A major problem with British politics is that the main parties are all alike and getting a wider spectrum of parties into Parliament is a good thing. At the very least it would get the anti-messages on EU, immigration, captialism, etc into Parliament so the Government would have to deal with it and explain why they are pro-immigration, pro-EU and the rest. So long as the messages the cosy centre claims are extreme remain outside Parliament they do feel it acceptable to ignore them.

Edited by jareth
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I'm sorry some of you people seem to be under the misguided presumption we live in a democracy?

We don't we live in a despot society like Injin says full of coercion and state sponsored violence.

Painting the guys holding the guns yellow,red or blue every 4-5 years doth not a democracy make.

May 5th blokes hold an AK47 to my head to force me to do things to their will

May 7th blokes still hold an Ak47 to my head to force me to do things to their will.

PR, a less unified bunch of blokes hold an AK47 to my head and force me to do things to their will...

We might as well be living in communist china, at least they can make long term decisions.

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I support PR 'in principle', that is whatever system that promotes maximum representation.

Nothing wrong with a referendum IMO, let the people decide.

Maximum representation is easy cost £400 per house hold, EVERY man woman and child is to be armed with an AK47 and an RPG-9 launcher.

This de-monopolises the ability of the government to oppress you, thus Iraq war? people no likey? They bring their Ak47s and RPG launchers to take parliment apart.

If people don't like them taking it apart of what comes out of it they will go and take parliment apart again themselves, if people don't like what happens then they will take it apart.

While currently ALl the guns and RPGs are held by the government who tell you what you want.

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Guest eight

I had a chat about house prices with david laws on our doorstep at the last election. Don't think I really got through but he did at least listen and treated me with respect.

Just wanted to say that!

Are you fully aware of David Laws' background? Put it this way, I doubt he's had to worry about house prices for a long time.....

eight

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Guest eight

Although if you live in Scotland you would have had one in 1997 about devolution, and many English councils have held a referendum about directly elected mayors.

Well yes, because they were both NuLabour pet projects.

eight

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Guest AuntJess

But which form of PR is it that would be installed without our consultation? Shouldn't we have a choice before we change our voting system. After all, the current one has been around for a while.

This is honestly something that a lot of people are now feeling strongly about. Perhaps strongly enough to to take to the streets...

Sadly it is an ENGLISH trait t be phlegmatic. A pint, pkt of fags, a footy match on telly and they don't give a monkeys

.

Scots Irish or Welsh and they kickoff, we tend not to. Well the respectable ones. Yobs kick off at sweet FA but they won't help the cause at all.

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Sadly it is an ENGLISH trait t be phlegmatic. A pint, pkt of fags, a footy match on telly and they don't give a monkeys

.

Scots Irish or Welsh and they kickoff, we tend not to. Well the respectable ones. Yobs kick off at sweet FA but they won't help the cause at all.

Poll tax riots.

Toxteth riots.

Brixton riots.

How quickly you forget. :rolleyes:

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And this is one of them.

When even Labour MP's, ex ministers and peers are saying that imposing a new voting system without a referendum is just not on you know something is going badly wrong in the heart of Nu Labour.

I am 49 years old and this is the most serious threat this country has faced in my lifetime IMO - even worse than the 1970's.

I know that people may find this amusing and this thread will probably get shunted into off topic

BUT

This is actually really serious

:blink:

I entirely agree with you ... I would say the issue needs resolution but this isn't the way to do it.

I suspect we are also at risk with the "rainbow" coalition of having a situation where the votes of minority parties with narrow interests in wales/ireland/scotland will be "bought" at the expense of the english taxpayer.

But I think we'll also find that when the key debates start over these things that the new rainbow warriors will find they cannot get the budget through, and will certainly fail to get any law on PR forced through........ the conservatives have far too many seats to allow big contentious issue to get through.

The budget will be the interessting one as labour will undoubtedly reveal more cuts but the conservatives may vote it down on the basis there aren't enough cuts ( hardly a vote winnig argument as we know).

I think over some of these issues we will also see some dissent amongst labour and indeed lib dem and other rainbowites... in other words the coallition will find it very very hard to get all their members to vote the right way even if their numbers do add up to a majority.

Clegg has banged on long and hard about strong and stable governement.... what he actually meant to say was nay government which promised him the quickest and most certain route to PR... even if that measn not even consulting the british people... imagine what he would sanction in terms of the drift of powers to europe if he's willing to change the voting system here without a referendum..... its just plain wrong whichever way you look at it.

We need either a lib/con pact govt or a new election ( only those two will deliver a strong and stable govt) and we need some form of referendum on voting to allow us to decide how to move forwards........ with cleggs current stance we get neither and its just not a workable situation.

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Guest AuntJess

Poll tax riots.

Toxteth riots.

Brixton riots.

How quickly you forget. rolleyes.gif

True, but I always got the impression that they were LABOUR voters - I stand corrected.smile.gif

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Malcolm Riffkind on TV now, expressing disgust at Nick Clegg's doube dealing BBC TV news

Just posted on BBC Election website:

Labour negotiators are so confident about how talks are going with the Lib Dems that they've already drawn up a five-point plan for how to sell a Lab-Lib deal to voters and to doubters within their own ranks, says the BBC's Iain Watson. First and foremost, they plan to argue that a vote for Labour wasn't a vote for Gordon Brown. They say the UK doesn't have a presidential system so it's fine to change the leader post-election, and argue that support for Labour is likely to increase now Mr Brown is set to go.

:rolleyes:

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MAXIMUM DEVOLUTION, power to local people to decide what they want and how much they want to pay for.

Very little NEEDS to be done on a a national basis. The rest should be done locally on a council basis.

(No taxation without representation, don't let them raise taxes unless they have a referendum)

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Bungle Coalition > Tax rises over spending cuts > Downgrade > Sterling crisis > IMF 'rescue' > Devaluation > Emergency Euro 'bailout' on a Sunday night.

Agreed between IMF, Barroso, Merkin, Sarkoszy, Mandelson, Clegg, Miliband (insert appropriate socialists) without any requirement for plebiscite.

Mandelson/Clegg/Miliband on the Monday morning:-

"We have a Parliamentary system, it would be unthinkable to allow our country to go bankrupt" etc etc.

Starting to look like a done deal I'm afraid to say.

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Bungle Coalition > Tax rises over spending cuts > Downgrade > Sterling crisis > IMF 'rescue' > Devaluation > Emergency Euro 'bailout' on a Sunday night.

Agreed between IMF, Barroso, Merkin, Sarkoszy, Mandelson, Clegg, Miliband (insert appropriate socialists) without any requirement for plebiscite.

Mandelson/Clegg/Miliband on the Monday morning:-

"We have a Parliamentary system, it would be unthinkable to allow our country to go bankrupt" etc etc.

Starting to look like a done deal I'm afraid to say.

Probably already was before the election.

This is just for those out of the loop.

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Probably already was before the election.

This is just for those out of the loop.

Perhaps, yes.

I'm just working through one possible outcome from where we are now. I accept it may also have been a possible outcome had Dave won outright but perhaps deferred a couple of parliaments.

Clegg wants to adopt the Euro and wants to give up our nuclear deterrent. When he says 'change' from the old politics it's pretty clear what change he means. The usual suspects in the media are banging on about PR working perfectly well in Europe. Well, er no. It doesn't. They're collapsing and only able to prevent it through anti-democratic processes. i.e. fiscal consolidation and supra-national control. The speed of this is pretty breathtaking all round.

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Perhaps, yes.

I'm just working through one possible outcome from where we are now. I accept it may also have been a possible outcome had Dave won outright but perhaps deferred a couple of parliaments.

Clegg wants to adopt the Euro and wants to give up our nuclear deterrent. When he says 'change' from the old politics it's pretty clear what change he means. The usual suspects in the media are banging on about PR working perfectly well in Europe. Well, er no. It doesn't. They're collapsing and only able to prevent it through anti-democratic processes. i.e. fiscal consolidation and supra-national control. The speed of this is pretty breathtaking all round.

Cheer up though, they can't afford it for much longer.

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On the news today a LibDem/NuLabour pact would be dependent on the Unionists to survive. Of course the Unionists have close links to the Tories.

So it looks as if the Tories get to run NuLabour and the government through the Unionists :lol:

That's democracy for you :lol:

Mind you considering all the cronyism and lobby influence etc etc these days it might not make much difference except different people get to sit in the seats around the cabinet table.

Edited by billybong
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Thanks to Mods for leaving on main forum.

Latest update

As I pointed out yesterday it would only take a handful of Labour MP's to vote against imposing a change to the electoral system without a referendum for this to fail

After a number of Labour MP's went on TV to say they would not support such a move the BBC has just announced that there is going to br a meeting of Labour MP's OPPOSED to electoral reform meeting in the House of Commons shortly this afternoon.

Basically Mandleson, Campbell and Adonis ALL unelected, attempted yesterday to derail a virtually done deal by offering the Lib Dems a new voting system WITHOUT a referendum

And it is to the Lib Dems eternal shame that they abandoned all democratic principles and leapt at this deal - a deal which anyone with more than 2 brain cells knew the Nu Labour machine just could not deliver.

The Lib Dems have shown the British people how PR would work and in the process have wrecked any hope they ever had of winning a vote on electoral reform IMO.

:blink:

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Ill tell you one part of the democracy thats not under threat....its the MSM, interviewing each other 12 hours a day about nothing at all.

or 3 minutes saying the parties are negotiating.

insane.

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Ill tell you one part of the democracy thats not under threat....its the MSM, interviewing each other 12 hours a day about nothing at all.

or 3 minutes saying the parties are negotiating.

insane.

What else is happening in the world that we might want to know about that this crap is covering over?

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