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Democracy Under Serious Threat


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Guest The Relaxation Suite

I'm going to be flamed here but perhaps this is what this country needs to start tackling the issues of immigration and globablisation. Serious concerns on these issues are just being dismissed outright by the major parties (whatever they may say) and it may just be that scaring everyone with a few BNP MPs would cause a reaction.

[sets flamer to 10] .... I disagree. Whatever is wrong with our society, we do not need fascism to sort it out. Why should one of the world's oldest and most respectable political parties (Tories) or those who believe in a great old ideology like Liberalism have to find themselves greasing up to fascists to make a bill go through the Commons? PR allows this sort of thing to unfold in the heart of our democracy, while first past the post keeps whacko parties out of the loop.

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[sets flamer to 10] .... I disagree. Whatever is wrong with our society, we do not need fascism to sort it out. Why should one of the world's oldest and most respectable political parties (Tories) or those who believe in a great old ideology like Liberalism have to find themselves greasing up to fascists to make a bill go through the Commons? PR allows this sort of thing to unfold in the heart of our democracy, while first past the post keeps whacko parties out of the loop.

I agree with you in principle, but from a pragmatic point of view perhaps it would be good for the members of "the world's oldest and most respectable political parties" to have to grease up to them. It could give them the incentive to do what is needed to see the back of them at the following election.

It's controversial I agree.

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one of the world's oldest and most respectable political parties (Tories) or those who believe in a great old ideology like Liberalism

I have to get back to this one.

Cash for questions, moats, duck houses and porn movies, the Lab-Con duopoly has become utterly complacent and made the world's oldest democracy a subject of ridicule the world over. Our democracy is disfunctional as it stands.

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

I agree with you in principle, but from a pragmatic point of view perhaps it would be good for the members of "the world's oldest and most respectable political parties" to have to grease up to them. It could give them the incentive to do what is needed to see the back of them at the following election.

It's controversial I agree.

I agree that the electorate has been roundly ignored for many years. On that I'm with you. The socialists have savaged British civil liberties in a way that is almost beyond belief. This has offended conservatives and liberals across Britain. The conservatives have been offended by immigration, and the liberals have been offended by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It goes on. But this is because the socialists had too big a majority in 1997 and abused it dreadfully.

What we should not do in reaction to this abuse is introduce a voting system that will enfranchise fascists and communists and other extremists. In resigning, Brown has effectively tried to overturn the electorate's decision to remove the Left from power and install a voting system that will ensure the conservatives can never again form a government, but will also put fascists in the Commons. For this, and this alone, Labour have to be flushed down the Thames for 10 years. Only one party can do that.

If Clegg allies with the Labour Party, I feel the English might just rise up and riot.

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Is there a coup d'├ętat going on?

This is not democracy... in what has been an astonishing year politically, this is quite surreal. If politics was seen to be rotten, it is now putrid.

Labour clinging on, a big V sign to the British public.

John Reid was pretty on the money with this.

Meet the new boss, same as the old one.

There was a news item on the telly stating that of the four occasions the UK has had a coalition Government

only once did that Government coalition last longer than a year before another (forced) election.

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What we should not do in reaction to this abuse is introduce a voting system that will enfranchise fascists and communists and other extremists.

Why should British fascists and communists be deliberately disenfranchised? Particularly when the current Labour party is at least borderline fascist in itself; after all, most of the BNP's policies wouldn't have been out of place in a Labour manifesto twenty years ago.

I don't see how anyone can claim to support democracy while simultaneously pronouncing that millions of people should be refused a voice in Parliament because they're 'beyond the pale'. More than that, I'd say that the best way to convince people _not_ to vote for parties like the BNP is to let the leaders of said parties make fools of themselves in public.

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

Why should British fascists and communists be deliberately disenfranchised? Particularly when the current Labour party is at least borderline fascist in itself; after all, most of the BNP's policies wouldn't have been out of place in a Labour manifesto twenty years ago.

I don't see how anyone can claim to support democracy while simultaneously pronouncing that millions of people should be refused a voice in Parliament because they're 'beyond the pale'. More than that, I'd say that the best way to convince people _not_ to vote for parties like the BNP is to let the leaders of said parties make fools of themselves in public.

Who says there are millions of fascists in Britain? Or millions of communists? If there were it would be a pretty good idea to leave the country right now. As it stads of course, there are just a few thousand of these morons, and thereis no reason why a party that can drag up a bit of support at the local level should be given a national forum. If they are to have a right to be in your parliament then you must also make space for the Free Cornwall whackos, or the Independent Yorkshire Party, or the West Highland Terriers Should Rule Party.

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Who says there are millions of fascists in Britain? Or millions of communists?

You presumably believe so or you wouldn't be demanding that they're disenfranchised. You wouldn't need to ban them from Parliament if there aren't enough to vote for a few MPs.

If they are to have a right to be in your parliament then you must also make space for the Free Cornwall whackos, or the Independent Yorkshire Party, or the West Highland Terriers Should Rule Party.

Yes, you should. Why shouldn't Cornish Separatists have an MP if they can raise enough votes?

Where do you think you get the right to tell people who they can and can't vote for? What would be so awful about a Parliament which actually represented the British people?

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Don't you think PR would be good for democracy? 30% of the UK population have imposed their views unchecked on the other 70% for at least the last 30 years and you think that was good?

thats fine..as long as ENGLAND gets its own parliament.

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Brussels would love to see an end to the electoral system because it would mean perpetual uncertainty and disarray, with no clear leadership.

Perfect for centrist governance by unelected quangos and a godsend for the corporate takeover. No strong political leadership? No problem, let corporate interests and consumerism take the lead, laughing at the ever more disintegrated and in-cohesive mishmash of PR with its squabbling factions.

Only one alternative that can wrest power back from the corporate and banking elite and that's anarchy, you know, the kind of thing where communities do what's in their interests regardless of the psychopathic desire of elitists and closet fascists.

yep

in the meantime maybe they are trying to get the english a bit upset

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thats fine..as long as ENGLAND gets its own parliament.

Keep the current constituencies and give NI, Wales and Scotland Full Fiscal independence Scottish, English and Welsh votes should be separated in the house of commons.

They could vote together on issues of National (UK) importance.

Scotland and Wales in Particular vote very differently to England, so we should let each country rule itself in the way that it wants to.

We should have Swiss style direct democracy, that would keep the politicians straight if they had to ask in a referendum every time they wanted to raise tax.

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Well we could devolve almost everything to "regional votes" in the house of commons. So east anglia, south east, west midlands etc etc.

They should be setting their own rates of tax and levels of services according to what they want and should be entirely self funding.

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Keep the current constituencies and give NI, Wales and Scotland Full Fiscal independence Scottish, English and Welsh votes should be separated in the house of commons.

They could vote together on issues of National (UK) importance.

Scotland and Wales in Particular vote very differently to England, so we should let each country rule itself in the way that it wants to.

We should have Swiss style direct democracy, that would keep the politicians straight if they had to ask in a referendum every time they wanted to raise tax.

As an earlier posted pointed out, around 80% of our laws originate in the EU. Perhaps it's time that the Houses of Parliament in the palace of Westminster became a tourist attraction and we dissolve the UK parliament in favour of 4 separate and completely devolved parliaments for England, N.Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Since any LibLab coalition would be relying on the nationalist votes, there would certainly be additional pressure for Scotland to break away completely.

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Well we could devolve almost everything to "regional votes" in the house of commons. So east anglia, south east, west midlands etc etc.

They should be setting their own rates of tax and levels of services according to what they want and should be entirely self funding.

+1

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Guest Skinty

Can someone explain to me what a referendum is? I'm over 50 and I've never actually seen one. ;) Do they really exist?

It's when the government put forward loaded questions in order to manipulate you into giving them a mandate to do something under the pretense of giving you a free choice.

For example, why did Australia vote to keep the queen?

If the government doesn't actually want the referendum to pass then they will include non-voters as well. For example the 1974 referendum on Scottish independence, condition was that 40% of the electorate must vote "yes" the turnout of 63.6% was whittled down to only giving a 32.9% "yes" vote.

So expect something similar if the Tories give us a referendum on electoral reform.

I don't know why it has to be fully PR or fully FPTP or fully AV. We could have FPTP but some seats can be elected using PR.

Edited by Skinty
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Can someone explain to me what a referendum is? I'm over 50 and I've never actually seen one. ;) Do they really exist?

Well, there has only ever been one across the whole of the UK - the 1975 referendum asking if the UK should enter the common market.

Although if you live in Scotland you would have had one in 1997 about devolution, and many English councils have held a referendum about directly elected mayors.

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I agree that the electorate has been roundly ignored for many years. On that I'm with you. The socialists have savaged British civil liberties in a way that is almost beyond belief. This has offended conservatives and liberals across Britain. The conservatives have been offended by immigration, and the liberals have been offended by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It goes on. But this is because the socialists had too big a majority in 1997 and abused it dreadfully.

Whilst I agree with you entirely, I think in all fairness that the same could have been written about the Tories 15 years ago. As a result of an overwhelmingly favourable electoral system both parties have become complacent and abused our democratic values as a result.

What we should not do in reaction to this abuse is introduce a voting system that will enfranchise fascists and communists and other extremists.

That's over the top and borders on scaremongering. You will be giving a voice to all segments of the UK population, and if that includes _some_ extremists then so be it.

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You have to be a Labour voter... You don't know what it is, but it must be good because that's what the party has decided is best for you. :lol:

And if you'd followed the thread I never wrote for or against AV, I'm talking about PR.

And I'm not a Labour voter.

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And if you'd followed the thread I never wrote for or against AV, I'm talking about PR.

But which system? There are multiple permutations, and they are 'selling' AV as PR, which it isn't.

This is precisely WHY this should be put in front of the electorate (or at least parliament), with the various options explained, not decided in a backroom deal between Labour 'Lords' and a few Lib Dems.

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But which system? There are multiple permutations, and they are 'selling' AV as PR, which it isn't.

This is precisely WHY this should be put in front of the electorate (or at least parliament), with the various options explained, not decided in a backroom deal between Labour 'Lords' and a few Lib Dems.

I support PR 'in principle', that is whatever system that promotes maximum representation.

Nothing wrong with a referendum IMO, let the people decide.

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I support PR 'in principle', that is whatever system that promotes maximum representation.

Nothing wrong with a referendum IMO, let the people decide.

What, more decisions. I thought that the people did a pretty good job last Thursday saying that the people don't really want a government. It is only the politicos having all these meetings to work out what to do now that they've been told that they're not wanted - well not wanted enough to form a government.

p-o-p

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