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Democracy Under Serious Threat


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Update from Newsnight

Harriet Harman has now said that they couldn't change the voting system without a referendum

So Brown was offering something he couldn't ever deliver without even consulting his MP's

A Scottish Labour MP was also on and said that the idea of Scottish Labour MP's in a coalition with the SNP was a non starter

He also said he didn't support AV and wouldn't vote for it I think.

Basically Brown and his cronies are now in the process of tearing the Labour Party apart IMO and leaving a shameful and ugly political legacy.

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Brussels would love to see an end to the electoral system because it would mean perpetual uncertainty and disarray, with no clear leadership.

Perfect for centrist governance by unelected quangos and a godsend for the corporate takeover. No strong political leadership? No problem, let corporate interests and consumerism take the lead, laughing at the ever more disintegrated and in-cohesive mishmash of PR with its squabbling factions.

Only one alternative that can wrest power back from the corporate and banking elite and that's anarchy, you know, the kind of thing where communities do what's in their interests regardless of the psychopathic desire of elitists and closet fascists.

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The price of this unholy alliance between Lib dems and Labour is that of the demands of the nationalist MPs.

The moment their price is revealed expect English voters to rally to conservatives (even more). It's simply a non-starter.

Cuts are coming and the English will not allow Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland a free pass.

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Only one alternative that can wrest power back from the corporate and banking elite and that's anarchy, you know, the kind of thing where communities do what's in their interests regardless of the psychopathic desire of elitists and closet fascists.

Appointment to the Privy Council is for life, but only Ministers of the Government of the day participate in its policy work.

The Privy Council Office is the Secretariat of the Privy Council. Its ministerial head is the Lord President of the Council, Lord Mandelson

Privy - "An outhouse, a small structure (holding a single person, and freestanding) for defecation"

Edited by erranta
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And this is one of them.

When even Labour MP's, ex ministers and peers are saying that imposing a new voting system without a referendum is just not on you know something is going badly wrong in the heart of Nu Labour.

I am 49 years old and this is the most serious threat this country has faced in my lifetime IMO - even worse than the 1970's.

I know that people may find this amusing and this thread will probably get shunted into off topic

BUT

This is actually really serious

:blink:

totally agree.

given that we've had some rather dubious skullduggery with the voting process,and mandelson harping on about the "post-democratic age" some months(and years) back,I would certainly think there is a correlation between the two.

it doesn't mean democracy doesn't work,it is just quite blatantly being subverted in a fashion where it is made to look like it doesn't.

dangerous times indeed.

But some of us are watching and foresaw these kind of scenario's developing.

Such is the case with socialism,when it becomes blindingly obvious that the policies are an abject failure,these people will go to any lengths to cover their tracks and put up a facade of normalcy.

the truth will out.

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Labour turned in their worst GE performance since the 1920s... and yet they still might be in power!

And then, the icing on the cake, they decide to change the electoral system, without the say of the electorate, and you think that's funny!

Well, I think you probably deserve what comes next.

What I think is funny is that some people might worry more about PR being implemented in the UK than about what was allowed to happen in the last two years.

That is the kind of folly that one can only laugh about.

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Only one alternative that can wrest power back from the corporate and banking elite and that's anarchy, you know, the kind of thing where communities do what's in their interests regardless of the psychopathic desire of elitists and closet fascists.

in order to see an effective challenge to this threat then it is INFORMATION,not violence that will solve it.

while these people control the media/political process and joe public takes what he reads in the sun as gospel truth then the game can be played.

these guys are terrified of the internet,which is why we have so much legislation going on the books to restrict the flow of information.

If enough people provide the "indecent exposure",then they have problems.

all it takes to bring the house down after they attempt to choke off the net is one very angry geek in a bedroom.

The corporatists think big,and want to bludgeon everything to bits like the death star,but the small nimble x-wing is ultimately capable of dealing the killer blow.

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Don't you think PR would be good for democracy? 30% of the UK population have imposed their views unchecked on the other 70% for at least the last 30 years and you think that was good?

Labour are not offering PR. They are offering AV (alternative vote). According to figures put on Sky tonight the result is not that much different.

But I agree with the sentiments of the OP. This is a highly dangerous situation. New Labour/Lib Dems have stolen the election. They didn't like the result, so they are changing the system. These parties lost the election in terms of them loosing votes and seats and they don't have a mandate for any of this.

The Telegraph in tomorrows edition is already calling this a "Labour Coup."

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This article is worth reading - I think it gives a great sense of exactly what is going on.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/10/gordon-brown-quits-nick-clegg

Tonight shocked cabinet ministers met to be informed of what Brown had been doing with his inner circle. It is known that some cabinet ministers are wary. Jack Straw, the justice secretary is said not to be an enthusiast, ...
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And this is one of them.

When even Labour MP's, ex ministers and peers are saying that imposing a new voting system without a referendum is just not on you know something is going badly wrong in the heart of Nu Labour.

I am 49 years old and this is the most serious threat this country has faced in my lifetime IMO - even worse than the 1970's.

I know that people may find this amusing and this thread will probably get shunted into off topic

BUT

This is actually really serious

:blink:

Were there referendums before the Reform Acts of 1832, 1867 and 1885 were passed, or when women were given the vote?

Of course not, and you don't need one now.

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And this is one of them.

When even Labour MP's, ex ministers and peers are saying that imposing a new voting system without a referendum is just not on you know something is going badly wrong in the heart of Nu Labour.

I am 49 years old and this is the most serious threat this country has faced in my lifetime IMO - even worse than the 1970's.

I know that people may find this amusing and this thread will probably get shunted into off topic

BUT

This is actually really serious

:blink:

I always said Brown and the whole New Labour project would cling to power in any way they could. Pushing AV through is part of a scheme to meld the LD's into the Labour party and so renew it once again, ready to pull another con trick on the public. You'll note that Brown has only said he will go when a new leader is elected ( a process that could be dragged out into next year) and could well still get a cabinet post (Chancellor again,God forbid). It's looking more and more like a stitch up (something else I predicted) with Clegg never having an intention of listening to the Conservative party. This year's winter fuel allowance may well be paid in bank notes.

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This election in particular has flagged up for me just how poorly a lot of people understand our Parliamentary ways and how badly we are served by the political class.

The top job in Westminster ought to be MP. Instead it has become 'Being in the Government'. The supreme authority of a nation, granted by the people, bestowed upon 650 mortals and what to many of them do? Abandon their duties to us when they are in that building for a quiet life voting as their party leader tells them, lots of jollies abroad at our expense and subsidised pies and pints. Too many of those people are cretins, imbeciles, charlatans and blaggards who can only be removed if their party allows it.

Parliament has more authority than Government but due to spineless back bench MPs and a useless opposition the Government has been firmly in the driving seat for a very long time. Far too much adherence to what the whips say has destroyed the soul of our democracy. Government sets the timetables. Government sets the rules. Government decides what can and cannot be scrutinised by Parliament. Government has made MPs spend more time in their constituencies so they spend less time looking at what the Government is doing. Parliament should be holding Government to account but it chooses not to. There are some decent MPs who continually are a thorn in the side of the grand plans of Government, seeking to improve the quality of legislation, reduce the harm Government does and who take their role as a Parliamentarian seriously but they are too few in number at the moment.

We vote based on what people say they will do as a Government. We should not. Vote for those who say they will hold Government to account. Vote for those who are prepared to say there must be limits to what Government can do and would impose those limits on themselves were they to form a Government.(eg a true recall mechanism that doesn't need Parliament's permission, complete transparency on expenses, breaking the stranglehold Government has on Parliamentary committees, etc)

Everyone is represented in Parliament even if they didn't vote for their MP. There is no end to the divisiveness of PR. If it is not fair that I did not get an MP to my liking should we also be enacting male representatives for men and females for women? Christian MPs for Christians? I do not care what race, gender or religion my MP is so long as they are competent. I don't even care if they are the one I voted for. So long as they are my MP they are there representing me. I expect them to do their job. Many MPs have shifted their focus from scrutinising Government to being a glorified social worker. Government itself has encouraged this for obvious reasons.

First Past the Post is not perfect. It is a blunt instrument and one Labour have diddled with in their time in power but it is not really the problem. An untouchable core of high and mighty politicians is. The lack of accountability is. The inability for constituencies to force MPs out is. The lack of transparency is. They have already changed our democracy to one that suits their needs not ours. Here we have a bunch of liars who we know lie all the time, lying to us about how desperately in need of reform Parliament is and offering to fix it out of the goodness of their hearts. It isn't Parliament that needs fixing but our MPs. Why do we keep electing these shits?

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Labour are not offering PR. They are offering AV (alternative vote). According to figures put on Sky tonight the result is not that much different.

But I agree with the sentiments of the OP. This is a highly dangerous situation. New Labour/Lib Dems have stolen the election. They didn't like the result, so they are changing the system. These parties lost the election in terms of them loosing votes and seats and they don't have a mandate for any of this.

The Telegraph in tomorrows edition is already calling this a "Labour Coup."

I must admit I don't know about AV, but anything that would release the grip two minority parties have on this country would be welcome IMO.

From where I sit Lib Lab carry more than 50% of the votes of the UK population so they have a mandate as much as a Lib-Con coalition. It's a question of perspective and objectivity I guess.

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I must admit I don't know about AV, but anything that would release the grip two minority parties have on this country would be welcome IMO.

From where I sit Lib Lab carry more than 50% of the votes of the UK population so they have a mandate as much as a Lib-Con coalition. It's a question of perspective and objectivity I guess.

Wrong

Lib Con carry 59%

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Is this a wind up?

It's less of a majority than 59%

:lol:

No, no wind up I'm afraid.

52% is a majority and so is 59.

If you don't see the truth of that then I'd expect you to push for a Lab Con coalition, anything else would not be democratic since they'd have a majority with the greatest margin.

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:lol:

No, no wind up I'm afraid.

52% is a majority and so is 59.

If you don't see the truth of that then I'd expect you to push for a Lab Con coalition, anything else would not be democratic since they'd have a majority with the greatest margin.

Like I suggested, let's go for a 100% coalition to keep you happy.

You know, kind of like a government of all the losers - yeah, I like that, has a certain ring to it

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