Lie To Buy.

[apom]

If its against the law and they get caught , they should get jailed, its fraud

I think the goverment better start investing in a few more prisons then, oooohhhh more goverment debt.....

If it does happen theres going to be a very large number of convictions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or perhaps stopping it from continuing.. after all, isn't it punishment enough to have borrowed 8 times your salary at the peak of a market..

Economy finds a ballence.. like nature..

and growing an extra arm is against nature and makes you look stupid.

in much the same way spending £170,000 on a rubbish flat also makes you look stupid..

With mortgage rates on the up.. (fixed rate borrowing rates rising quickly indicate what the lenders now believe to be happening.. the best indication of future trends..) lets see them support those repayments..

Is that why we are only meant to borrow 3.5 times?

yes dumbass.. it is.

[Smell the Fear]

It happened last time - I remember a bloke got 18 months - made the front page of the papers - judge said it was fraud and, as we all know, if you sin against God (money) you get a severe sentence. All he did was lie to get a foot on the ladder.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your brand of flexible morals really p!sses me off. You're always giving off about chavs and petty crime, but your fine with someone who (working in tandem with similar morally flexible individuals in the population) basically screws the rest of us over.

Don't you see that this attitude is a contributory factor to HPI? That it impacts on other people's lives? That a generation is forced to rent from these scumbags because they are not prepared to lie?

By the way, TTRTR still hasn't responded to my question about the honesty of his mortgage applications.

[BoredTrainBuilder]

Its a criminal offense to lie about your income to obtain a mortgage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is that really true? Is it not a civil matter between borrower and lender?

[Scooter]

Is that really true? Is it not a civil matter between borrower and lender?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obtaining goods or services by deception (Theft Act) perhaps?

[apom]

actually its fraud.

you are lying about your situation to borrow a huge amount of money.. A HUGE AMOUNT

To the letter of the law "serious fraud" like this could see you in prison for a decade..

also if you are aware of someone doing this and you don't report it.. you are complicit to a fraud.

again illegal. large fine and possible prison sentance.

what do people think they are doing.. a cheeky smile and a slap on the back from the copper..

A solicitor, if convicted, could not practice again.

an accountant..

This is fraud..

yes it is naughty.

[Scooter]

actually its fraud.

you are lying about your situation to borrow a huge amount of money.. A HUGE AMOUNT

To the letter of the law "serious fraud" like this could see you in prison for a decade..

also if you are aware of someone doing this and you don't report it.. you are complicit to a fraud.

again illegal. large fine and possible prison sentance.

what do people think they are doing..  a cheeky smile and a slap on the back from the copper..

A solicitor, if convicted, could not practice again.

an accountant..

This is fraud..

yes it is naughty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fraud is a general term but the offences which are colloquially referred to as fraud are obtaining goods/services/pecuniary advantage by deception per the Theft Act 1968, 1978 and later amendments in 1996.

S.

[apom]

I stand corrected

so how can we compete in a market filled with morons with the moral compass that allows them to commit fraud .

and then have access to unlimited funds

The mentality that tells them that a one bed flat for £145,000 in devon is a bargain..

We can't...

drat

[Scooter]

I stand corrected

so how can we compete in a market filled with morons with the moral compass that allows them to commit fraud .

and then have access to unlimited funds

The mentality that tells them that a one bed flat for £145,000 in devon is a bargain..

We can't...

drat

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The market will correct itself eventually-realy!

[apom]

why wait..?

this way the economy doesent have to go pop quite so badly..

Seriously..

allowing this to continue will lead the market into the inevitable, it will become affordable when the economy fails.

When the debt burden sucks too much money away.

Or we can stop the fraud and perhaps avoid a recession.

[apom]

Okay.. last attempt..

There are no high house prices.. yup.. house prices are perfectly fine..

!/3 of all house purchases are made with income non verified mortgages.

yup house prices are fine..

we just have to remove the idiots who are prepared to commit fraud to borrow 10 times their salary..

ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT...

[apom]

Have you considered going to the press with this? I'm sure there is an investigative journalist out there willing to put in the work and come up with some evidence.

Maybe a covert operation with hidden cameras to trap BTLers in the pub bragging about their empires and the fraud they used to get them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the article I included was from the BBC and this was first being investigated as far back as 2003.

the FSA came forward and suggested that income non verified mortgages only made up 1% of the market where official figures from the lenders has had this figure sustained at about 1/3rd.

I have spent months trying to get the FSA to look at this. But after a few communications they go quiet each time.

The serious fraud office of the police have asked for more information and I have supplied this. I will wait to see what they say.

but does anyone know of an investigative journalist who might be interested.. I don't mind the leg work to find one.

This is all that there is left now to support the high prices.

We are told that the average wage in the country is about £25,000

but this is the mean average and is swayed my massive salaries very quickly.

I am about to ask the government statistics office for the modal average.

This is the amount most people earn.

I would expect it to be much lower.

affordability governs the price of anything much more then any other factor.

we can't compete in a market where we are competing against people willing and able to break the law to have access to almost unlimited funds.

As niave as it is to spend £175,000 on a small run down flat in devon the vendor is going to take the most that they can when they sell, as will the person who is selling the home that they are moving into.

Don't forget.. most home owners don't care what their home is worth. only how much it is going to cost them to move into the next place.

[Guest Riser]

Looks like the Woolwich pulled their stupid parental help mortgage.With the proportion of FTB down from the long term average of 55% to just 7% perhaps they didn't have many takers. One of the side effects of sending more people to University apart from leaving them with £15k debt is thet they realise what a dumb idea it would be to buy in the present over inflated housing market.

Woolwich pulls parental help mortgage

Woolwich pulls parental help mortgage

24th Aug 2005, a Wednesday

Woolwich, the home-loans arm of Barclays bank, has announced it is to end its Offset Together mortgage. Aimed at struggling first-time buyers, the deal enabled parents to offset their savings against their son or daughter’s mortgage to reduce the interest charged on the loan.

The average property now costs £162,994, according to Halifax.

Based on standard lending criteria — 3.5 times single income and 2.75 times joint — an individual looking to buy a property at that price with a 10% deposit would need to be earning about £42,000 a year to get a large enough mortgage.

[Guest struthitsruth]

Wrote to my MP, so there ! He's a Conservative, and was shadow chancellor at one time, so should be motivated to have a go at Gordon Brown !

I put footnotes in the letter relating to the articles published by apom, but they haven't pasted in here.

I know it's a bit feeble, but for every letter an MP gets, they estimate a further 10 people that didn't write might feel the same way. So a few hundred letters might have more impact than you think.

My way of looking at it - at least if you write they can't say they didn't know anything about it or how you felt about it.

'struth

Wednesday, 24 August 2005

Rt Hon Oliver Letwin

House of Commons

LONDON

SW1A 0AA

LIE TO BUY MORTGAGE FRAUD

Dear Mr Letwin

I am writing to ask for your support in bringing an end to serious fraud that is being perpetrated still despite investigations begun by the BBC Money Programme in 20031.

Figures released by the Council of Mortage Lenders in 2004 show that 1/3rd of all mortgage lending was “income non-verified” and 1/5th of all mortgage debt had never had income verified against the borrowing.

The FSA conducted a review into the self-certified mortgage market in early 2004 which concluded that lenders had sufficient controls in place against fraud.2 The FSA also issued guidelines to mortgage lenders in February 2004 which included the following information :

“From Oct 31 2004, lenders will need to comply with the MCOB 11 rules on responsible lending, which will require assessment of ability to repay whatever the LTV ratio.” 3

Non-verified lending at the end of 2003 amounted to £147bn of outstanding mortgage balances. It is a criminal offence to lie about your income to obtain a mortgage.

I believe that the practice of turning a blind eye to income verification continues today. I am only able to base this on anecdotal evidence, but I am confident that an analysis of further information would provide supporting evidence of a more substantial kind.

The income non-verified mortgages figures from lenders and earnings figures from the government statistics office ( that should be modal average earnings, i.e. what most of us earn rather than a national average figure that is swollen by massive salaries very quickly ) would show that current house prices make purchase impossible for many buyers without resorting to lying about their income.

There’s a lot of debt out there. There are many of us who prefer to play with a straight bat and comply with the law. House purchase has been put out of our reach and that of our families because of the massive scale that fraud has been, and continues to be, carried out in the mortgage market.

Please can you look into this and let me know your findings.

Yours sincerely

Finally, from Ross Clark at Times on-line, May 2005-08-244

The Chancellor is so terrified that the housing market will collapse, allowing a tide of negative equity to overwhelm his forthcoming premiership, that he is prepared to go to any lengths to prevent it. That is the motivation behind Mr Brown’s shared equity scheme (and also for allowing investors to buy homes tax free through self-invested pension plans). If he really had first-time buyers’ interests at heart he would simply let house prices fall. Instead, he is propping them up in order to help him move home — to No 10.

[Smell the Fear]

the article I included was from the BBC and this was first being investigated as far back as 2003.

the FSA came forward and suggested that income non verified mortgages only made up 1% of the market where official figures from the lenders has had this figure sustained at about 1/3rd.

I have spent months trying to get the FSA to look at this. But after a few communications they go quiet each time.

The serious fraud office of the police have asked for more information and I have supplied this. I will wait to see what they say.

but does anyone know of an investigative journalist who might be interested.. I don't mind the leg work to find one.

This is all that there is left now to support the high prices.

We are told that the average wage in the country is about £25,000

but this is the mean average and is swayed my massive salaries very quickly.

I am about to ask the government statistics office for the modal average.

This is the amount most people earn.

I would expect it to be much lower.

affordability governs the price of anything much more then any other factor.

we can't compete in a market where we are competing against people willing and able to break the law to have access to almost unlimited funds.

As niave as it is to spend £175,000 on a small run down flat in devon the vendor is going to take the most that they can when they sell, as will the person who is selling the home that they are moving into.

Don't forget.. most home owners don't care what their home is worth. only how much it is going to cost them to move into the next place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Donal McIntyre has done several ducumentaries for the BBC. If someone could do a good job on it, it could be a massive story.

[The_Equalizer]

Another anecdotal, but it’s my understanding that in Dublin the self-cert lie is a matter of course if you wish to purchase a property there. It goes on to such an extent that there’s a ‘kit of parts’ available from Easons (equivalent of WH Smiths) which you can knock out supporting references required to back up your falsified income statement. I’d imagine that it’s dead easy to do with computer and an average printer.

As apom correctly points out you’re trying to compete in a market were the rules are completely skewed. It’s amazing at how this goes on unabated. Like many others here the purchasing power of my wage doesn’t equate to what in theory should with regards housing. It’s an impressive lead that apom has taken in this matter.

[apom]

Donal McIntyre has done several ducumentaries for the BBC. If someone could do a good job on it, it could be a massive story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thank you. for those who are taking notice.

I will also write to my MP..

and Donal McIntyre,

This could give us what we want.

[apom]

this reply is for the purpose of bringing the thread back to page one.

I believe that this shows possitive action that we can all partake in that will stop a crime that is directly effecting us all.

if all we could borrow was the normal salary multiples thats where the house prices would sit. Within normal salary multiples..

If no one could cheat.. none of us would have to.

House Prices can only remain as high as they are while they are affordable to people as high as they are.

affordability determines price more then any other factor...

9 times the average salary is not affordable.

Quite frankly no one could do it.

STOP THE FRAUD.

Stop it dead.

Contact the police fraud office, the FSA and your local MP.

Look at the evidence in my first coouple of threads.

1/3 of new mortgages is higher then the percentage of people who are FTB's and in need of an illegal leg up..

The others.. if they have equity.. they don't need to lie.

STOP THE FRAUD.

STOP THE LIE'S

Edited August 25, 2005 by apom

[apom]

another reply to bring the fix to the housing crisis again to the fore..

Read this thread and stop and think..

"Can I activly take action to bring about what I desperatly need.?"

[apom]

another reply to bring the fix to the housing crisis again to the fore..

Read this thread and stop and think..

"Can I activly take action to bring about what I desperatly need.?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

has anyone taken any action.. just a few voices on here....

anyway.. I am of...

three day weekend..

what I lack in home and family I make up in toys..

My motorbikes...etc..

amazing what you can do if you save and invest..

not in property..

[Smell the Fear]

has anyone taken any action.. just a few voices on here....

anyway.. I am of...

three day weekend..

what I lack in home and family I make up in toys..

My motorbikes...etc..

amazing what you can do if you save and invest..

not in property..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good luck Apom. I'm going to write to my MP as well. I'm sure there are plenty of people laughing at us here, those who believe that the market is the final arbiter.

Unfortunately the financial system and the premises upon which it are based are fatally flawed. Why should we wait until disaster strikes?

The reason we are in this mess is that we are subject to mind control. The only way to free some minds is to point out the obvious facts.

Your principles are admirable, unlike those of some of the appalling leeches who make their allegedly erudite contributions here, whilst contributing nothing to society.