Inflating Away The National Debt

[Injin]

I guess it helps if you're able to distinguish between numbers and the promise to do something.

If you mix the two then things start to get awfully muddled.

How do you distinguish between them?

[Authoritarian]

How do you distinguish between them?

A number isn't a contract whereas a promise to do something is.

This is why your number money and the banks' are qualitatively different, you're just offering a number whereas they are promising the labour debt that others have freely pledged.

The banks don't write 'IOU' everytime they do this because it would be an extremely inefficient way of going about things. But avoiding this technicality doesn't render the process fraud.

[Injin]

A number isn't a contract whereas a promise to do something is.

But how do you know which is which?

Go into a bank and they can show you £1,000,000 on a screen. How do you know if it is or isn't what they claim it to be?

This is why your number money and the banks' are qualitatively different, you're just offering a number whereas they are promising the labour debt that others have freely pledged.

What's the difference in the item being offered or owed?

The banks don't write 'IOU' everytime they do this because it would be an extremely inefficient way of going about things. But avoiding this technicality doesn't render the process fraud.

People generally think they recived tenners, twenties and fivers, coins and so on.

They didn't and the bankers cash in on the misapprehension.

This is fraud.

[Authoritarian]

But how do you know which is which?

Go into a bank and they can show you £1,000,000 on a screen. How do you know if it is or isn't what they claim it to be?

A number on a screen isn't an asset though, cash or a pledge to pay cash is.

What's the difference in the item being offered or owed?

Your 'money' has no tradable value, theirs does. Not because their numbers are better than yours but because they're dealing in IOUs, you are not.

People generally think they recived tenners, twenties and fivers, coins and so on.

They didn't and the bankers cash in on the misapprehension.

This is fraud.

People think they receive whatever it is they've received. If £10,000 appears in their account it would be rather foolish to mistake this for notes and coins. But they can exchange their number money for notes and coins if they wish.

Still not seeing the fraud.

[Injin]

A number on a screen isn't an asset though, cash or a pledge to pay cash is.

I didn't ask you what they were, I asked you how you could tell the two apart.

Your 'money' has no tradable value, theirs does. Not because their numbers are better than yours but because they're dealing in IOUs, you are not.

IOU's of what substance?

What item is owed?

People think they receive whatever it is they've received. If £10,000 appears in their account it would be rather foolish to mistake this for notes and coins. But they can exchange their number money for notes and coins if they wish.

No, they really think there is a pile of notes and coins in a vault, waiting for them.

How do I know this?

I asked a lot of people. I suggest you do the same.

Still not seeing the fraud.

I get your solemn pledge to work for me for 25 years in exchange for a stack of tewnty pound notes 4 inches high.

I never had any twenty pound notes, but both misdirect your attention and use my reputation as honest sto create the impression that I do.

Fraud.

[HumanAction]

I think most people are aware by now that banks don't keep all their money in a vault behind the counter.

If they know this, then they won't have to bend their mind to realise that their bank statement is only a claim on assets the bank has lent out. Or an IOU in common parlance.

There is no mass fraud taking place. Get over it.

Cobblers, the average man believes precisely that the banks actually have the money and the banks try very hard to keep it that way. Sure a few people figure the game out but that in no way translates to 'most people'.

The whole system is essentially fraudulent with the bankers and their pet politicians stealing from the vast majority of the population. They defraud their 'creditors' by 'inflating the money supply' and they defraud their 'debtors' by convincing them that they have borrowed something that the bank actually possessed.

Edited May 4, 2010 by HumanAction

[Bloo Loo]

Cobblers, the average man believes precisely that the banks actually have the money and the banks try very hard to keep it that way. Sure a few people figure the game out but that in no way translates to 'most people'.

The whole system is essentially fraudulent with the bankers and politicians stealing from the vast majority of the population. They defraud their depositors by 'inflating the money supply' and they defraud their depositors by convincing them that they have borrowed something that the bank actually possessed.

Its what the Safe is for.

[Authoritarian]

I didn't ask you what they were, I asked you how you could tell the two apart.

This is how I do it. I look at my bank balance and it usually shows that I'm in credit by 50 pence, I think of this as an IOU. Then I look in my wallet to see how much cash I have.

Everyone has their own system though.

IOU's of what substance?

What item is owed?

It's just general money, the IOUs aren't specific.

No, they really think there is a pile of notes and coins in a vault, waiting for them.

How do I know this?

I asked a lot of people. I suggest you do the same.

This is because the banks do such a marvellous job of risk management that they able to make it look like they have all this money stashed away when in fact they don't

And you've got your survey evidence to back this up so I'm sure you'll only be happy to agree.

I get your solemn pledge to work for me for 25 years in exchange for a stack of tewnty pound notes 4 inches high.

I never had any twenty pound notes, but both misdirect your attention and use my reputation as honest sto create the impression that I do.

Fraud.

You're confusing numbers and paper with a promise to do something. They're not the same.

[Authoritarian]

Cobblers, the average man believes precisely that the banks actually have the money and the banks try very hard to keep it that way. Sure a few people figure the game out but that in no way translates to 'most people'.

The whole system is essentially fraudulent with the bankers and their pet politicians stealing from the vast majority of the population. They defraud their 'creditors' by 'inflating the money supply' and they defraud their 'debtors' by convincing them that they have borrowed something that the bank actually possessed.

Well they couldn't pull the wool over your eyes. I guess you're just too smart for them, eh?

[Injin]

This is how I do it. I look at my bank balance and it usually shows that I'm in credit by 50 pence, I think of this as an IOU. Then I look in my wallet to see how much cash I have.

but how do you know that is linked to anything else?

Everyone has their own system though.

Sure - how would I know looking at a piece of paper with a logo on it and some numbers if it's connected to any IOU's, or in deed, anything at all?

It's just general money, the IOUs aren't specific.

Define money please.

This is because the banks do such a marvellous job of risk management that they able to make it look like they have all this money stashed away when in fact they don't

And you've got your survey evidence to back this up so I'm sure you'll only be happy to agree.

So

1) Banks misrepresent their position

2) People are fooled

3) Chef says this isn't fraud because they get away with it

4) Injin says "raggy???"

You're confusing numbers and paper with a promise to do something. They're not the same.

A promise to do what?

I keep asking you what the IOU is for - can you simpyl define it for me and explain what it looks like in oh I don't know - a wheelbarrow.

What does the item that is promised by the bankers IOU look like?

Sound like?

Smell like?

Taste like?

Feel like?

Cheers.

[HumanAction]

Well they couldn't pull the wool over your eyes. I guess you're just too smart for them, eh?

You cant fool all of the people all of the time I guess . But then you dont need to fool everyone to make the system function because even those who can see the game for what it is are for the most part trapped into playing anyway.

Edited May 4, 2010 by HumanAction

[Bloo Loo]

snip

This is because the banks do such a marvellous job of risk management that they able to make it look like they have all this money stashed away when in fact they don't

snip

now THAT'S funny...

[Stars]

Cobblers, the average man believes precisely that the banks actually have the money and the banks try very hard to keep it that way. Sure a few people figure the game out but that in no way translates to 'most people'.

Firstly, I doubt the average person is quite the dribbling cretin you make him out to be and secondly it doesn't matter in terms of fraud anyway because - keeping his money inside the bank as notes or coins - is not a condition of any arrangment he has with the bank

Well done for figuring it out though

Edited May 4, 2010 by Stars

[Injin]

Firstly, I doubt the average person is quite the dribbling cretin you make him out to be and secondly it doesn't matter in terms of fraud anyway because - keeping his money inside the bank as notes or coins - is not a condition of any arrangment he has with the bank

Sure it is.

Well done for figuring it out though

Not many people do. Still fewer grasop what it might mean for, say their mortgage.

The experiment to find this out is simple. Though I expect the numbers of those who know to be a lot higher now than the last time I did it.

[Stars]

Sure it is.

No it isn't.

Though some banks will sell you this service seperately

Not many people do. Still fewer grasop what it might mean for, say their mortgage.

The experiment to find this out is simple. Though I expect the numbers of those who know to be a lot higher now than the last time I did it.

Many peole don't even think about it because the banks are so effective at what they do. Ask this question after giving someone a day to think about it and most people will tell you they don't think their local Barkleys has a box with their name on it, containing a stack of fivers

[Authoritarian]

but how do you know that is linked to anything else?

Through experience.

Sure - how would I know looking at a piece of paper with a logo on it and some numbers if it's connected to any IOU's, or in deed, anything at all?

Just having a brief look will normally do the trick. Is it cash? If not, is it a promise to pay cash? It's usually one of the two if it's connected with the bank.

Define money please.

An IOU.

So

1) Banks misrepresent their position

2) People are fooled

3) Chef says this isn't fraud because they get away with it

4) Injin says "raggy???"

All the data is published. They can only fool those that choose to be fooled.

A promise to do what?

I keep asking you what the IOU is for - can you simpyl define it for me and explain what it looks like in oh I don't know - a wheelbarrow.

What does the item that is promised by the bankers IOU look like?

Sound like?

Smell like?

Taste like?

Feel like?

Cheers.

You can use the IOU anywhere that accepts Sterling. It might look like paper, a coin or numbers on a screen. Depending on the form it takes it's other qualities will vary.

[Injin]

Through experience.

Experience of what?

What specifically do you expereince that tells you the difference?

Just having a brief look will normally do the trick. Is it cash? If not, is it a promise to pay cash? It's usually one of the two if it's connected with the bank.

How do you know which is which and how do you know it's different than any other numbers on a piece of paper with a £ sign attached?

An IOU.

IOU for what item?

All the data is published. They can only fool those that choose to be fooled.

How can you tell if the data is accurate or not?

How do people know about the data?

Why should/would anyone go looking for such information?

Why don't the banks simply mark their accounting slips with the different types whateer it is money(you still haven't defined it), if publishing what they do is their thing?

You can use the IOU anywhere that accepts Sterling. It might look like paper, a coin or numbers on a screen. Depending on the form it takes it's other qualities will vary.

This is the answer to a different question than the ones I asked.

Here the actual questions are again.

A promise to do what?

I keep asking you what the IOU is for - can you simpyl define it for me and explain what it looks like in oh I don't know - a wheelbarrow.

What does the item that is promised by the bankers IOU look like?

Sound like?

Smell like?

Taste like?

Feel like?

Cheers.

An accurate and responsive answer will list the physical, measurable qualities of the item the IOU is for. x size, x colout, x weight, x smell, x taste and so on.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Injin

[HumanAction]

Firstly, I doubt the average person is quite the dribbling cretin you make him out to be and secondly it doesn't matter in terms of fraud anyway because - keeping his money inside the bank as notes or coins - is not a condition of any arrangment he has with the bank

So you seriously think people 'borrow' from banks at interest in the full knowledge that the bank doesn't actually have the money to lend them in the first place? I think it's you that is painting the average person as a dribbling cretin not me. I think they are the victims of an elaborate and quite difficult to grasp fraud.

Well done for figuring it out though

It makes me brighter than you I guess

[Injin]

No it isn't.

Though some banks will sell you this service seperately

Yes, it is. Ask around - most people have an arrangement with their bank whereby they rock up, and their cash is available on demand.

You aren't saying that the general understanding of what a bank is there for and the legal paperwork are different, are you?

Many peole don't even think about it because the banks are so effective at what they do. Ask this question after giving someone a day to think about it and most people will tell you they don't think their local Barkleys has a box with their name on it, containing a stack of fivers

You mean they currently have a mistaken view but if they think about it after some prompting can find the right answer?

I agree.

And am glad you agree that it's a fraud.

[HumanAction]

A number isn't a contract whereas a promise to do something is.

Hmmmm.

This is why your number money and the banks' are qualitatively different, you're just offering a number whereas they are promising the labour debt that others have freely pledged.

Not really true that though is it. They are actually promising so much future labour that it cant possibly be delivered ( at least not by those from whom it is supposedly due ). Even in the best case scenario the promise is dubious as the labourer is not even guaranteed to be alive at the due date let alone guaranteed able to deliver on the promise. To accept such a promise on the same basis as labour already delivered is not something people are likely to do if they actually appreciate what is being offered. They accept such deals because they do not understand and that I would hazard is a state that is not achieved accidentally.

The banks don't write 'IOU' everytime they do this because it would be an extremely inefficient way of going about things. But avoiding this technicality doesn't render the process fraud.

You have to be kidding right? There is a simpler explanation of why they do not write IOU. It's that they dont want people realising that is what they are actually getting. Simpler solutions are usually favoured by rational people, it's called Occam's razor.....

Edited May 4, 2010 by HumanAction

[Authoritarian]

Experience of what?

What specifically do you expereince that tells you the difference?

I know through experience that I'm able to exchange bank credits/cash for items and that I'm able to withdraw cash from the bank whenever I please.

I think this is pretty normal.

How do you know which is which and how do you know it's different than any other numbers on a piece of paper with a £ sign attached?

Well I know who owes me money. So when my bank issues a statement I'm aware that this is informing me how much they owe. If somebody just writes £10,000 on a piece of paper then I'm aware that it has nothing to do with me.

IOU for what item?

An IOU for any item that can be exchanged for sterling.

How can you tell if the data is accurate or not?

How do people know about the data?

Why should/would anyone go looking for such information?

People don't need to know all this, but it's there if they choose to find it. I don't need to know the exact processes that are involved in shoe manufacturing, I just need to know whether they fit and if they'll last.

Why don't the banks simply mark their accounting slips with the different types whateer it is money(you still haven't defined it), if publishing what they do is their thing?

They do, it's called a statement.

This is the answer to a different question than the ones I asked.

Here the actual questions are again.

A promise to do what?

I keep asking you what the IOU is for - can you simpyl define it for me and explain what it looks like in oh I don't know - a wheelbarrow.

What does the item that is promised by the bankers IOU look like?

Sound like?

Smell like?

Taste like?

Feel like?

Cheers.

An accurate and responsive answer will list the physical, measurable qualities of the item the IOU is for. x size, x colout, x weight, x smell, x taste and so on.

You can exchange the IOU for a sterling denominated asset, as long as it's exchangeable it's doing it's job properly. Has you ever come across sterling/bank credit that wasn't tradable? Let me know when you do.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Chef

[Injin]

I know through experience that I'm able to exchange my bank credits and cash for items, and that I'm able to withdraw cash from the bank whenever I please.

I think this is pretty normal.

I didn;'t ask you that question. Can you answer the questions I do ask, please?

Well I know who owes me money. So when my bank issues a statement I'm aware that this is informing me how much they owe. If somebody just writes £10,000 on a piece of paper then I'm aware that it has nothing to do with me.

How do you know that someone owes you money?

An IOU for any item that can be exchanged for sterling.

This isn't an answer to my question.

Please answer my actual questions.

People don't need to know all this, but it's there if they choose to find it. I don't need to know the exact processes that are involved in shoe manufacturing, I just need to know whether they fit and if they'll last.

I didn;t ask you if people needed to know it and I didn't ask you if you knew the processes in most manufacturing.

Please just answer the questions I put to you.

They do, it's called a statement.

How do you know if it is accurate or if it corresponds to anything which has really occured?

You can exchange the IOU for a sterling denominated asset, as long as it's exchangeable it's doing it's job properly. Has you ever come across sterling/bank credit that wasn't tradable? Let me know when you do.

I didn't ask you what you coudl do with it - I asked you something else.

Please answer the questions I have already put to you.

Here the actual questions are again.

A promise to do what?

I keep asking you what the IOU is for - can you simpyl define it for me and explain what it looks like in oh I don't know - a wheelbarrow.

What does the item that is promised by the bankers IOU look like?

Sound like?

Smell like?

Taste like?

Feel like?

Cheers.

[HumanAction]

You can exchange the IOU for a sterling denominated asset, as long as it's exchangeable it's doing it's job properly. Has you ever come across sterling/bank credit that wasn't tradable? Let me know when you do.

I think this brings the thread full circle, as of now sterling has been significantly devalued over a short period of time, I'd guess it's going to lose a great deal more value over the next few months and years. It may or may not end up as non tradeable but it seems obvious that the underlying promises are going to be reneged on. A quick check of history will show you that bankers have a history of this sort of thing.

[Authoritarian]

Hmmmm.

I'm just dealing with the facts.

Not really true that though is it. They are actually promising so much future labour that it cant possibly be delivered ( at least not by those from whom it is supposedly due ). Even in the best case scenario the promise is dubious as the labourer is not even guaranteed to be alive at the due date let alone guaranteed able to deliver on the promise. To accept such a promise on the same basis as labour already delivered is not something people are likely to do if they actually appreciate what is being offered. They accept such deals because they do not understand and that I would hazard is a state that is not achieved accidentally.

I think people in general are able to grasp the concept of an IOU. But if one group of people have demanded so much that they cannot possibly be paid then perhaps we need to review the 'service' that they're providing for the community, because it would appear on the surface as if monopolies are at work.

You have to be kidding right? There is a simpler explanation of why they do not write IOU. It's that they dont want people realising that is what they are actually getting. Simpler solutions are usually favoured by rational people, it's called Occam's razor.....

Yes I agree, I offered the simpler solution. It's cheaper.

[Authoritarian]

I keep asking you what the IOU is for

I'll answer your actual question. (Even though I was anyway)

An IOU is issued when one party receives a service but fails to provide anything in return at that particular moment. The IOU is usually redeemable on demand.

I hope this clears things up.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Chef