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Should the young, the poor, the average have to suffer high rents and high house prices? Rampant house price inflation has meant thousands of people effectively no longer earn a living wage.

In Spain, there is an increasingly vocal 'ant-Speculation' movement, which has mobilised thousands onto the streets, demanding the Government take action.

The British, meanwhile, sit back and take it all with a shrug of the shoulders.

Abundant cheap housing means a high quality of life for all. House price hyperinflation is a wholesale transfer of wealth to speculators and the propertied.

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I've been a homeowner for 17 years. I'm more than happy to see the market correct. People don't seem to understand that as long as you bought your house reasonably close to the long term trend price, then it really makes no odds what it's "worth" - the only thing that matters is how much outstanding mortgage you have.

I'm not too old to remember what being an FTB was like. I only just managed to hop on the "ladder" in 1987 before it accellerated beyond my reach (that was on a 3.5 times mortgage). Of course I ended up wishing I hadn't bothered!

House price crash? Bring it on.

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Quite right Rik. Unless you're speculating to some degree why on earth does it matter what house prices are doing? It only matters to the poor sods who've been left behind and are paying into their landlord's pension fund. Zero or low price inflation would result in a lot more resources elsewhere for the economy.

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Surveyor's right. There's a lot of talk about how the house price situation has helped fuel the consumer spending boom - MEW, people just feeling wealthy because their grubby 70s semi's worth 250k, and so on.

To the twenty-somethings struggling with high rents and high house prices there isn't a consumer boom. It's struggling to pay down debts, scrimping and saving all the way. if rents and mortgages weren't so sky high, we could be spending our money elsewhere, stimulating other areas of the economy beyond some BTLer's Porshe kitty.

We have a small part-time business we could take much further if it wasn't for the cost of living that keeps us both in full-time daily grind employment. If we weren't pouring so much dosh into rent and saving to shadow that inflated housing market, we'd be investing in a useful business - buyng more equipment, spending on printing and publicity, leaving full-time employment and creating vacancies.

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I don't think you can underestimate how much homeowners wish for their house prices to carry on going up or at least stay the same, to over rule any thought of general ethical thinking or compassion for the poor in the uk.

Folks are completely house price obsessed here.

I saw a TV doc a few months ago about a asylum centre, coming to a UK town, although they wouldn't admit it at first, in the end their hostility was all about the effect on their house prices, apart from a couple of racists.

A few weeks ago on HPC, there where some semi-interesting posts by someone calling themselves the 'Housing Liberation Front' . We need something like this in the UK urgently to address extreme views at the other end of the spectrum..

The only thing close to this I got involved in was the promotion of Sustainable building in the form of 'Earth Ships' see www.EarthShip.Org which although you could use new materials, the best designs are slightly subversive because they're based on re-using materials, which although is the best environmentally is anti-consumer ultimately, as it replaces buying new stuff.

I read the other week that the most subversive thing in China to get involved in is Environmentalism. I assume because it is the only major force with bite to slow capitalist growth.

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I've noticed that almost all homeowners i know do not believe prices will fall. You can understand people who bought recently saying this, but do people that bought a house for 80k in 1999 REALLY think it's now worth 200k+?

Usually their argument is something like, 'In the last crash interest rates were 15% - rates are still much lower'. Of course, they may be paying just a £400 a month mortgage repayment and have a good income, so it's neither here nor there if there's small moves in interest rates. Yet, someone with the same income level that bought later and took on an uncomfortable-but-managable mortage of £950 for the same type of house will have a different view. To these people even small movements in interest rates will feel very noticable.

Of course, it doesn't need home repossessions to bring about the crash. Just the money drying up will do the trick - amatuer and professional speculators will retreat as capital appreciation and rental yields wither, banks become more nervous about lending, and ever fewer FTBs will be able or willing to stretch.

The UK does need a more forceful assault on high housing costs. The chairty Shelter are one of the few organisations really expressing just how off-the-scale bleak the situation has become.

There needs to be a broader movement speaking out against this stuff. Families cramped into bedsits or b&b, young workers living in hovels, parents 'taxed' by having to house their adult offspring that can not realistically afford to leave the nest, public and private organisations unable to find or keep staff in 'hotspot' areas, cities and town losing their life as the middle-tiers move out leaving only the wealthy and those poor enough to qualify for the last few crumbs of the dwindling welfare state - all these things are very bad and damaging.

Yes, the link in my signature is to my website. I do a small newsletter with a a hundred to or subscribers, and I'm hoping to grow this by creating a website. I keep trying to get the site finished, but other events always take over. Watch this space.

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I've noticed that almost all homeowners i know do not believe prices will fall. You can understand people who bought recently saying this, but do people that bought a house for 80k in 1999 REALLY think it's now worth 200k+?

I have a couple of work colleagues who are particularly house-price conscious. One, who has a keen interest in investments (though is not a BTLer, more a stocks and shares man) believes a significant fall is on the way, while the other, who simply has a very great interest (bordering on the obsessive) in the value of his home, believes prices will plateau.

When the latter bought his house in '99, it cost £90k. This was a stretch to him at the time. It's now worth 180k+. Though a 55k mortgage, on his salary (17k), was considered by him to be a very large sum of money at the time, which of course it is, he considers the additional 100k to be a sustainable figure. If he was starting today as a FTB, he could never hope to climb up the housing ladder to his present property if inflation were to stay at the present low levels, yet he can't see the obvious.

I think it comes down to human nature and the comfort of the wealth effect derived from cloud cuckoo land prices. The gentleman concerned has very heavy CC debts, and the burden of those is relieved in his mind by the equity in his home. He sees himself as comfortably in the black rather than the reality that he's well in the red.

If people had woken up one morning to find the value of their property had doubled overnight to the current levels, it would be all seen by most for the folly that it is. The boiling frogs principle, though, has led to many believing that it's all perfectly benign and that there's a chest of money in a bank somewhere with their name on it. I firmly believe an awful lot of people are going to end up more than disappointed to find out it was never really there at all.

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  • 16 years later...

Do people think the current situation with a massive overreaction to the COVID response is really about great reset; or could it be more about cleansing, as per the title of this thread?

As I see it, there are a few aspects:

1) Inflationary levels of new money being created? i.e cleansing the debt.

2) Using inflation as per bullet 1 also cleanse the public sector pension liabilities

3) Ground people from travel, so they can't spend as much on holidays and don't notice their falling real income.

4) The reason for the panic over keeping people alive is that the financial powers don't want a glut of property deflating the market and crashing the banks. I'm more on the side of freeing up houses.

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On 13/08/2004 at 09:19, CrashedOutAndBurned said:

In Spain, there is an increasingly vocal 'ant-Speculation' movement, which has mobilised thousands onto the streets, demanding the Government take action.

What sort of action is the Spanish government urged to take (or is that part of the campagin vague)?

I am not sure whether or not I think speculation itself is a problem. Crony Capitalism and unethical conduct within Banking are problems... but they're not necessarily the same thing as speculation.  How does the Spanish movement relate to Islam - especially Shari'ah and the idea that "riba" is "haram"?  Is this a movement more closely aligned with organised religion or socialism?

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On 13/08/2004 at 09:19, CrashedOutAndBurned said:

Should the young, the poor, the average have to suffer high rents and high house prices? Rampant house price inflation has meant thousands of people effectively no longer earn a living wage.

In Spain, there is an increasingly vocal 'ant-Speculation' movement, which has mobilised thousands onto the streets, demanding the Government take action.

The British, meanwhile, sit back and take it all with a shrug of the shoulders.

Abundant cheap housing means a high quality of life for all. House price hyperinflation is a wholesale transfer of wealth to speculators and the propertied.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repressive_desublimation

So off licences essential shops, take-aways, games, streaming, downloads, celebrity gossip, social media, on-line shopping.....all keep he populas engaged and entertained.....;)

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31 minutes ago, winkie said:

So off licences essential shops, take-aways, games, streaming, downloads, celebrity gossip, social media, on-line shopping.....all keep he populas engaged and entertained.....;)

That sounds realistic...

"Repressive Desublimation", on the other hand, sounds awfully post-modernist to me... and to have a different political agenda.

I have wondered if school closures represent an extremely effective way to occupy all the mental resources of parents.

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24 minutes ago, A.steve said:

That sounds realistic...

"Repressive Desublimation", on the other hand, sounds awfully post-modernist to me... and to have a different political agenda.

I have wondered if school closures represent an extremely effective way to occupy all the mental resources of parents.

Parents will find it hard to teach their children well, kids have short attention spans and working on the kitchen table or on a desk in bedroom at home with a devise can play games on they will easily be distracted.......like university students go for the student life........younger children need to be around their peers not their parents all day.....much of what makes people who they are is by socialising with friends, what they learn in the playground is just as important.;)

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7 minutes ago, winkie said:

much of what makes people who they are is by socialising with friends, what they learn in the playground is just as important.;)

;) Are you noting that I'm "probably a weirdo" because, when I was of school age, I despised the playground and did everything in my power to avoid it?  I socialised with friends I made at University, but... where my "education" was compulsory, I avoided my so-called peers.  I simply didn't want anything they wanted.  Perhaps I wasn't their peer?

I guess it depends what you think to be the point of education.  At school, I learned that I must be prepared to fight (metaphorically and literally) or accept the unacceptable.  I learned that some others had extraordinary advantages that were denied to me (and that my lot was not as bad as some others').  I learned (and had reinforced) that the school had no genuine interest in making me informed - or training me in valuable skills; that the objective of the entire system had never been to empower me - and, probably, the exact opposite.  I learned to distrust those in positions of authority - but to recognise that their power was always limited.  I learned that those who hoped to become educated and capable by following lessons were deluded and had scant intellectual advantage over livestock in a field.   I learned that - to the education establishment (with a handful of exceptional exceptions) my existence was mostly an inconvenience - though, because I'd learned how to avoid their consideration in the bizarre instutiton of 'school', I was less inconvenient than others.  The most enduring thing I learned is that I utterly despise playgrounds and find them an abusive social experiment.

I expect some children to benefit from much greater parental involvement.  I expect others to become ferral.  I'm not sure what influence age will have.  I suspect that this experience will likely contribute to imposing a dramatic impact on the mental health of many parents - and don't expect that to end well.  I can't imagine the 'unhinged' coping - but, ho-hum... I'm sure the children will learn something from such an experience.  "Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger" and "whatever kills us prevents us from wrecking future statistics."

I wonder if the outcome will be what the elite want?

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43 minutes ago, A.steve said:

;) Are you noting that I'm "probably a weirdo" because, when I was of school age, I despised the playground and did everything in my power to avoid it?  I socialised with friends I made at University, but... where my "education" was compulsory, I avoided my so-called peers.  I simply didn't want anything they wanted.  Perhaps I wasn't their peer?

I guess it depends what you think to be the point of education.  At school, I learned that I must be prepared to fight (metaphorically and literally) or accept the unacceptable.  I learned that some others had extraordinary advantages that were denied to me (and that my lot was not as bad as some others').  I learned (and had reinforced) that the school had no genuine interest in making me informed - or training me in valuable skills; that the objective of the entire system had never been to empower me - and, probably, the exact opposite.  I learned to distrust those in positions of authority - but to recognise that their power was always limited.  I learned that those who hoped to become educated and capable by following lessons were deluded and had scant intellectual advantage over livestock in a field.   I learned that - to the education establishment (with a handful of exceptional exceptions) my existence was mostly an inconvenience - though, because I'd learned how to avoid their consideration in the bizarre instutiton of 'school', I was less inconvenient than others.  The most enduring thing I learned is that I utterly despise playgrounds and find them an abusive social experiment.

I expect some children to benefit from much greater parental involvement.  I expect others to become ferral.  I'm not sure what influence age will have.  I suspect that this experience will likely contribute to imposing a dramatic impact on the mental health of many parents - and don't expect that to end well.  I can't imagine the 'unhinged' coping - but, ho-hum... I'm sure the children will learn something from such an experience.  "Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger" and "whatever kills us prevents us from wrecking future statistics."

I wonder if the outcome will be what the elite want?

 

We are apes with gripping thumbs we work, live and love better and thrive as we were designed - playground/sport/youth group socialisation is an important part of that 

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1 hour ago, winkie said:

Parents will find it hard to teach their children well, kids have short attention spans and working on the kitchen table or on a desk in bedroom at home with a devise can play games on they will easily be distracted.......like university students go for the student life........younger children need to be around their peers not their parents all day.....much of what makes people who they are is by socialising with friends, what they learn in the playground is just as important.;)

This

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1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

We are apes with gripping thumbs we work, live and love better and thrive as we were designed - playground/sport/youth group socialisation is an important part of that 

I grind no axe over whether we were designed, or not - I can accept that we've evolved from apes... but not that I should be required to monkey-around in a mandatory way.  I see no evidence that the playground ultimately proved to be a beneficial experience - even for those who relished it.  I don't see the 'yard kids' having succeeded where those who avoided it did not.

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3 hours ago, A.steve said:

 The most enduring thing I learned is that I utterly despise playgrounds and find them an abusive social experiment.

I expect some children to benefit from much greater parental involvement.  I expect others to become ferral.  I'm not sure what influence age will have.  I suspect that this experience will likely contribute to imposing a dramatic impact on the mental health of many parents - and don't expect that to end well.  I can't imagine the 'unhinged' coping - but, ho-hum... I'm sure the children will learn something from such an experience.  "Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger" and "whatever kills us prevents us from wrecking future statistics."

I wonder if the outcome will be what the elite want?

 

Well the Orwellian Matrix Part of me thinks  this is about inflating away debt. Followed by reducing travel (Hence Zoom/ Teams/ Webex) due to climate change, and then perhaps locking us in our boxes (er sorry homes) with a neural interface (currently a pc screen) is the matrix part. Red or Blue Pill? Or perhaps mixing both via PurpleBricks.com.

For what it's worth my 10 year old complained bitterly today about being forced to use Windows 10, that Evil Bill Gates (we had just got him a new laptop via the school as the teachers struggled describing how go do certain office tasks to the class last lockdown - last time round he was running Ubuntu with Team for Linux. Free Open Source, so much better! 

 

Edited by Mikhail Liebenstein
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17 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Do people think the current situation with a massive overreaction to the COVID response is really about great reset; or could it be more about cleansing, as per the title of this thread?

As I see it, there are a few aspects:

1) Inflationary levels of new money being created? i.e cleansing the debt.

2) Using inflation as per bullet 1 also cleanse the public sector pension liabilities

3) Ground people from travel, so they can't spend as much on holidays and don't notice their falling real income.

4) The reason for the panic over keeping people alive is that the financial powers don't want a glut of property deflating the market and crashing the banks. I'm more on the side of freeing up houses.

The problem with this is I don't believe the cabinet is that smart. Most of what has happened is due to their incompetence, not a sophisticated conspiracy!

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On 13/08/2004 at 21:13, CrashedOutAndBurned said:

Surveyor's right. There's a lot of talk about how the house price situation has helped fuel the consumer spending boom - MEW, people just feeling wealthy because their grubby 70s semi's worth 250k, and so on.

To the twenty-somethings struggling with high rents and high house prices there isn't a consumer boom. It's struggling to pay down debts, scrimping and saving all the way. if rents and mortgages weren't so sky high, we could be spending our money elsewhere, stimulating other areas of the economy beyond some BTLer's Porshe kitty.

We have a small part-time business we could take much further if it wasn't for the cost of living that keeps us both in full-time daily grind employment. If we weren't pouring so much dosh into rent and saving to shadow that inflated housing market, we'd be investing in a useful business - buyng more equipment, spending on printing and publicity, leaving full-time employment and creating vacancies.

Your point is well made and I have always maintained your situation is the real damage that is being done by high house prices - the inability to invest in the real economy 

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16 hours ago, A.steve said:

;) Are you noting that I'm "probably a weirdo" because, when I was of school age, I despised the playground and did everything in my power to avoid it?  I socialised with friends I made at University, but... where my "education" was compulsory, I avoided my so-called peers.  I simply didn't want anything they wanted.  Perhaps I wasn't their peer?

I guess it depends what you think to be the point of education.  At school, I learned that I must be prepared to fight (metaphorically and literally) or accept the unacceptable.  I learned that some others had extraordinary advantages that were denied to me (and that my lot was not as bad as some others').  I learned (and had reinforced) that the school had no genuine interest in making me informed - or training me in valuable skills; that the objective of the entire system had never been to empower me - and, probably, the exact opposite.  I learned to distrust those in positions of authority - but to recognise that their power was always limited.  I learned that those who hoped to become educated and capable by following lessons were deluded and had scant intellectual advantage over livestock in a field.   I learned that - to the education establishment (with a handful of exceptional exceptions) my existence was mostly an inconvenience - though, because I'd learned how to avoid their consideration in the bizarre instutiton of 'school', I was less inconvenient than others.  The most enduring thing I learned is that I utterly despise playgrounds and find them an abusive social experiment.

I expect some children to benefit from much greater parental involvement.  I expect others to become ferral.  I'm not sure what influence age will have.  I suspect that this experience will likely contribute to imposing a dramatic impact on the mental health of many parents - and don't expect that to end well.  I can't imagine the 'unhinged' coping - but, ho-hum... I'm sure the children will learn something from such an experience.  "Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger" and "whatever kills us prevents us from wrecking future statistics."

I wonder if the outcome will be what the elite want?

I used to smoke behind the huts and bunk off now and again......helps to have like minded to do it with, yes sometimes you did feel part of a system that churns you up and chucks you out.......a lot depends on the teacher, not difficult to tell the good from the bad, what subject good at often down to the teacher teaching it, some couldn't  control a class so other kids lost out, other teachers were respected by all the class so all can learn......those that were there to inspire and improve their children and those that didn't want to be there, where felt like an inconvenience and irritant.....I suppose not that different to some parents......children are smart, smarter than we think. ;)

 

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The way I see the situation is this.

The Earth's population is approaching 8 Billion but the Earth is a finite resource.

We have reached a point where the Earth is like a dog with too many fleas, with the Earth in danger of dying.

 

The only way seen by the elites to correct the imbalance is to greatly reduce the population, or greatly reduce consumption.

The elites have set a plan in motion that keeps their power and wealth intact. They need a dictatorship, but one in which they keep power and are not killed off. Fascism would be their first choice, but this would be impossible to sell whilst democracy was still in place.

Communism has become their only solution, but they need a form that will not have them strung up with piano wire. They plan to follow the CCP in China. This would create a one world dictatorship, were vast wealth is held by a few unelected families. The rest of the population would be digital slaves, they would own nothing and be monitored 24/7.

The Earth's resources would then be rationed, the masters would take whatever they wanted, and the slaves would get to fight over what was left.

 

Globalisation.

 

 

Edited by Lord D'arcy Pew
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Take back control is to feed people with digital pleasures to rent, collect data to sell and provide alcoholic relaxants to provide a feelgood factor.......educate enough to cover life rental costs or borrow enough to keep working to cover a mortgage......say it isn't so.;)

 

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