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mhifoe

Brazilian Shot By Police Was Not Warned

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Channel 4 news have some leaked documents from the police inquiry into the shooting of the Brazilian electrician Jean Charles De Menezes.

http://www.channel4.com/news/content/news-....jsp?id=1677571

In my opinion one of the most shocking things was the coverage immediately after the event in which leading Police officers and members of the government claimed that he was clearly a suspect. They also claimed he was wearing a large coat and ran into the station, jumping the turnstyles in the process.

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The real question is where/who did all the information now known to be false come from?! From the authorities? From the media? From members of the public who phoned the newspapers for a moment of fame?

And secondly when the media were reporting what turned out to be rubbish why didn't the authorities correct them?

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Secondary to the laughable 'war on terror'(there is no international terror conspiracy, just a mish mash of myriad groups and individuals wanting to take various forms of revenge on the west) is an ongoing process of psiwar against the civilian population.

Any military propagandist knows how the use of key buzzphrase planted to the media via official sources can bludgeon critical thought out of the masses. In the miner's strike the media talked off the 'drift back to work' long before teh dispute ended. Soon 'drift back to work' was being discussed everywhere, the psychological image from those three words were dejected miners calling it a day.

In the War on Terror similar phrases are 'Al Queada'(who barely exist now, but the words are shorthand for 'organised, well-funded group, with international scope), 'terrorist network'(again something that sounds organised and permanant).

In reporting of Israel right wing American-born religious fanatics are called 'settlers' (a soft, friendly-sounding word) not 'fundamentalists', 'the far right', 'extremists' and even though those among them regularly shoot Palestinians cartainly not 'terrorists'.

In the killing of the Brazilian the psy-war keywords were 'heavy coat', 'jumped the barrier', 'didn't stop'. In the absence of any real information the media will parrot your key phrases thousands and thousands of times. When the news agenda moves on, the case is largely forgotton leaving the public not with an image of Rambo-police out of control on the streets of London but the image of a daft illegal immigrant who was crazy enough not to stop, leaping the barrier int he middle of a terror alert like some loon, wearing his heavy winter coat which could so easily have been packed full of explosives.

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In the killing of the Brazilian the psy-war keywords were 'heavy coat', 'jumped the barrier', 'didn't stop'. In the absence of any real information the media will parrot your key phrases thousands and thousands of times.  When the news agenda moves on, the case is largely forgotton leaving the public not with an image of Rambo-police out of control on the streets of London but the image of a daft illegal immigrant who was crazy enough not to stop, leaping the barrier int he middle of a terror alert like some loon, wearing his heavy winter coat which could so easily have been packed full of explosives.

Very well put. That was exactly the image that people were forming, hopefully this leak will get lots of coverage and make people think twice next time about the spoon fed 'information' from the authorities after an event.

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Very well put.  That was exactly the image that people were forming, hopefully this leak will get lots of coverage and make people think twice next time about the spoon fed 'information' from the authorities after an event.

Agreed, I tried to remind people that they were forming opinions based on, at best, hearsay evidence.

This information is damning.

I wonder what all those who said "he shouldn't have run" will say now - he didn't, well, except to run for a tube like we all do.

I wonder what all those who said "he shouldn't have worn a heavy jacket" will say now - he didn't, it was denim, I have seen the photo.

He didn't jump the barrier, he didn't run into the station, he apparently even stopped to pick up a free newspaper.

Heads should roll, I fear they won't.

NDL

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It is quite possible the Police were being "leant on " to provide va result to make this pansy government look "tough" on the "war" on terror?

I happen to think that Blairs police namesake put some pressure on his officers to get a result to ingratiate himself with the loonies in office.

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I can't believe this thread is still running. You guys should read this, especially Pricate Fraser's views.

Those of us who have the luxury of watching rolling news can smell rats a mile off. You might want to try and find the realtime commentary where private Fraser, TTRTR and I raise questions about the spinning of the incident (only to be roundly condemned for jumping to conclusions). As with WMD, the truth was clearly being blurred almost from the off.

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It is quite possible the Police were being "leant on " to provide va result to make this pansy government look "tough" on the "war" on terror?

I happen to think that Blairs police namesake put some pressure on his officers to get a result to ingratiate himself with the loonies in office.

Indeed, there may be a lot in what you say.

I personally feel he must resign, and if he doesn't, he must be sacked.

NDL

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Very very sad. Tragically mistakes happen.

I always though it was odd that you give a suicide bomber the usual "Stop - armed police" line as it would give them the time to detonate their bomb.

Maybe the current "leak" is no more accurate than the original reports.

What's not in doubt is that the police involved made a decision in good faith which with the benefit of hind sight was wrong.

Unless people think the police involved wanted to shoot him for a laugh?

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Sir Ian Blair - The name Blair has become synonymous with spin and lies. He spun like mad following the shooting of the Brazillian and even criticised the use of the tazer gun instead of his shoot to kill policy. He should resign, no doubt.

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itv news exclusive this evening are making Ian Blair's position v shakey. seems he tried to delay the inquiry. "begged" the home office to keep the ipcc @ bay.

itv's graphics, of the shooting, if correct, depict a complete shambles.

menendez was already seated in the carriage and being surveilled by three undercover police. when so19 armed police (4) appeared outside the carriage, one undercover officer went to the carriage door and identified menedez, who @ this point stood up. he was thn pinned back in his chair by the same officer, whilst so19 shot him @ point blank.

crazy

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.....What's not in doubt is that the police involved made a decision in good faith which with the benefit of hind sight was wrong.

Unless people think the police involved wanted to shoot him for a laugh?

Why is this not in doubt?

It seems plainly obvious that whoever they thought they were shooting (and it is claimed they thought this WAS one of the bombers) they did not have a bomb on them at that point.

I suspect there may have been a lot of congratulatory back slapping when they thought they had killed one of the bombers. I pity them when it became clear it wasn't.

NDL

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Guest The dude

Can anyone actually imagine going to work tomorrow in the usual fashion...you get on the bus, train, tube whatever..you get yourself a newspaper to while away the time...then....some guys come up to you who you've never met before who then starts to pump 7 bullets in your head? Can anyone actually imagine that? In my mind, what happened to the Brazillian was the most disgraceful thing ever to be perpetrated by the State. The copper who did it should be charged with murder ( for that's what it was)...he should never be allowed to carry firearms again. Ian Blair should resign if he had any decency. The other thing which should happen (and I am sure it's happening right now) is that the Great British Public should never ever believe anymore in what our very own Government and Media spout off about anything....THEY ARE ALL DISCREDITED.I hope the dead Brazillian's family get as much compensation as they can possibly get. Let's not beat about the bush on this one......anyone reading this thread could easily get state sponsored murdered tomorrow.

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Can anyone actually imagine going to work tomorrow in the usual fashion...you get on the bus, train, tube whatever..you get yourself a newspaper to while away the time...then....some guys come up to you who you've never met before who then starts to  pump 7 bullets in your head? Can anyone actually imagine that? In my mind, what happened to the Brazillian was the most disgraceful thing ever to be perpetrated by the State. The copper who did it should be charged with murder ( for that's what it was)...he should never be allowed to carry firearms again. Ian Blair should resign if he had any decency. The other thing which should happen (and I am sure it's happening right now) is that the Great British Public should never ever believe anymore in what our very own Government and Media spout off about anything....THEY ARE ALL DISCREDITED.I hope the dead Brazillian's family get as much compensation as they can possibly get.  Let's not beat about the bush on this one......anyone reading this thread could easily get state sponsored murdered tomorrow.

The police are now judge jury and executioner a la 2000AD Judge Dredd.

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Yes it'a horrendous MISTAKE... you know human error?

The copper who did this will bear the guilt for the rest of his life.

However we as a society ask the police to make difficult decisions in dangerous circumstances. We have a duty to support them when mistakes inevitably occur.

The real culprits are the Islamist nut jobs who let off the bombs and killed over 50 people...remember them? The Brazilian was another of their victims as sure as eggs is eggs.

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Yes it'a horrendous MISTAKE... you know human error?

The copper who did this will bear the guilt for the rest of his life.

However we as a society ask the police to make difficult decisions in dangerous circumstances. We have a duty to support them when mistakes inevitably occur.

The real culprits are the Islamist nut jobs who let off the bombs and killed over 50 people...remember them? The Brazilian was another of their victims as sure as eggs is eggs.

When a human life is snubbed out for no good reason, it is NOT simply a mistake.

There were systematic problems that led to this, so it is NOT simply a mistake.

Ignorance, ineptitude, cack-handedness, mis-organisation, mis-indentification all say this was NOT simply a mistake.

We were all told not to panic and to go about our business as normal after the attacks. If that was good enough for us then it was good enough for the "elite" that are SO19. They are after all trained for this type of work.

Tony Blair said terrorists would not change our way of life, so to hold the "Islamist nut jobs" responsible for this action is wrong.

I am all for supporting the police as their's is indeed a difficult job. I cannot however support them when a catalogue of their negligence and ineptitude leads to the killing of the innocent.

NDL

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The Judges in Mega City 1 did act as judge,jury and executioner but the law was always applied rigorously.

Interestingly as well there was also the safety of the city act which allowed a judge to carry out summary execution of someone deemed to be endangering the safety and well being of Mega City 1.

Maybe some of the SO19 boys read 2000AD when they were younger.

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The Judges in Mega City 1 did act as judge,jury and executioner but the law was always applied rigorously.

Interestingly as well there was also the safety of the city act which allowed a judge to carry out summary execution of someone deemed to be endangering the safety and well being of Mega City 1.

Maybe some of the SO19 boys read 2000AD when they were younger.

That is exactly what I fear for.... We are now IN 200AD!

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We were all told not to panic and to go about our business as normal after the attacks.  If that was good enough for us then it was good enough for the "elite" that are SO19.  They are after all trained for this type of work.

Tony Blair said terrorists would not change our way of life, so to hold the "Islamist nut jobs" responsible for this action is wrong.

NDL

Too right... I bet all the islamo-fascist-extremists are laughing at this... they have effectively managed to get the UK armed forces to continue the slaughter of innocent civilians.

Nice one SO19

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When a human life is snubbed out for no good reason, it is NOT simply a mistake.

There were systematic problems that led to this, so it is NOT simply a mistake.

Ignorance, ineptitude, cack-handedness, mis-organisation, mis-indentification all say this was NOT simply a mistake.

We were all told not to panic and to go about our business as normal after the attacks.  If that was good enough for us then it was good enough for the "elite" that are SO19.  They are after all trained for this type of work.

Tony Blair said terrorists would not change our way of life, so to hold the "Islamist nut jobs" responsible for this action is wrong.

I am all for supporting the police as their's is indeed a difficult job.  I cannot however support them when a catalogue of their negligence and ineptitude leads to the killing of the innocent.

NDL

It wasn't for no good reason... it was in the MISTAKEN belief that he was a suicide bomber.

Obviously grave errors were made but unless you suggest they killed an inoccent guy in the full knowledge he was inocent then it was clearly a mistake!!!

Of course the police need to learn lessons from this tragedy however I am angered by how quickly certain people want to stab our police and armed forces in the back and engage in orgy of self flagellation. Lets learn from it and move on.

If the Islamo-Fascist loons hadn't set off their bombs and killed over 50 people then the Brazilian guy would no doubt still be alive.

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Has everyone forgotten that he was here illegally? You guys are making more of a deal about this than all the murdered citizens on 7/7.

FFS, so because he was allegedly here illegally (do you really know that?) his life is worth less than a true Brit?

The point is it could have been anybody who was shot by these ignorant, useless, incompetent, gun-toting imbeciles.

:angry:

NDL

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If the Islamo-Fascist loons hadn't set off their bombs and killed over 50 people then the Brazilian guy would no doubt still be alive.

I do not understand this point of view. Sir Ian Blair said something similar, almost inferring that Jean-Charles de Menezes death was 'collateral damage' to the July 7th & 21st bombings.

Those who say this was only one life lost when compared to many more killed by the terrorists are missing the point. The terrorists did not believe in the law and didn't care how many they killed, whilst the state should be the ultimate arbiter and upholder of the law.

Terrorism is a risk we all understand that we face and unpalatable as it may seem we will have to live with. The actions of individual lunatics are beyond our control and to some extent beyond our comprehension, however, we should expect the state to live by and uphold the rule of law.

Whilst the sickening actions of individuals can be put down to perverted ideaologies, the behaviour of the state in killing Jean-Charles de Menezes cannot and is far more disturbing to live with on a day to day basis.

The 'Islamo-facists' and terrorists in general seek to destroy civillised society and have no regard for the rule of law. Those who say we can successfully combat these elements of society by abonding the rule of law oursleves are kidding themselves.

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FFS, so because he was allegedly here illegally (do you really know that?) his life is worth less than a true Brit?

The point is it could have been anybody who was shot by these ignorant, useless, incompetent, gun-toting imbeciles.

:angry:

NDL

Its funny its "allegedly" when its bad against the Brazilian but its "fact" when its against the police. Here a fact: if he wasn't here illegally he wouldn't have been shot :)

Believe you me I am not a fan of the police but I doubt they would have shot just anybody, the guy obviously fit the profile they were looking forand they were under tremendous pressure to avert another attack. We won't know the facts for sure until this all unravels. One thing for sure its the people who planted the bombs on 7/7 that are to blame.

As for the police carrying guns, since we decided to let all the armed criminals into London from god know where as they have no choice. We brought this on ourselfs by not have stricter border checks and not controling immigration.

As a matter or interest how would you have policed the tube after the attacks?

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