A Land Tax To Fund A Citizen's Wage

[the_austrian]

I find it completely incredible that tax is being seen as the answer after the last 150 years of centralist tax based failures, up to and including the current cluster******.

Unreal.

The point of a Land Tax is not so the Government can do more for us, it is so that they can do less.

Its purpose is to construct a battle between the rentiers and the Statists, whoever loses we can accommodate ourselves to the loss.

[soldintime]

This idea is great and no party or country has the guts to do it. I have seen it discussed in the past.

* Basic Citizens wage amount to be discussed. £100 per week e.g.

* Cutting all other benefits including unemployment benefit, tax credits. Only pension stays and some disabled benefits.

* No minimum wage requirements.

* Flat Tax for everything. e.g 28% Income tax, Cap Gains Tax (put cap gains tax on first homes as well), Corp Tax, Bonuses. Income tax to be deducted from bank account (this way no need for employer admin burden).

* Getting rid of non dom tax. It is unfair when you have a system like this.

* The basic citizens wage gets progressively less the more your earn. e.g £40000 will get £0, £20000 will get you £50 a week.

If tax take is not enough to fund this a land tax can be introduced. This will stop the boom and bust of housing cycles.

Some green taxes might be used to create more tax take.

This will create incentive for people to work as the money is not enough to live on. Lower wages will result in lots of job creation (supply and demand). The simplification of tax would streamline HMRC. Also as minimum wage and unemployment benefits are gone there is no need for job centres anymore. Benefit fraud department can be closed.

Plans like this can greatly reduce the size of government and get people back to work.

Comments welcome.

[Injin]

The point of a Land Tax is not so the Government can do more for us, it is so that they can do less.

Its purpose is to construct a battle between the rentiers and the Statists, whoever loses we can accommodate ourselves to the loss.

Statists ARE rentiers.

What's the penalty for not paying, btw?

What are you willing to do to me if I don't pay you your tribute?

[cells]

Is there a reason to think that normal taxes such as Income Tax, VAT are more robust a source of revenue than a Land Tax? Why so?

Simply because you can easily avoid a land tax by selling your land and buying cheaper land.

People wouldn’t be able to afford a big land tax so everyone would be forced to sell en mass. Ie the price of land would fall dramatically.

With VAT or income tax you cannot decrease your liability easily short of leaving the country. Not the same with land taxes.

Anything above £50B would be near impossible with a land tax.

I would put the limit at 25B which would be enough for a £10/pw citizens dividend however I wouldn’t bother, the administration would cost too much. For too little. (plus the average house would end up paying £1k more in land taxes to get £10-20/pw more in “citizens dividends”

[cells]

I find it completely incredible that tax is being seen as the answer after the last 150 years of centralist tax based failures, up to and including the current cluster******.

Unreal.

Communists/socialists/statists whatever you wish to call them believe that you can write into law wealth and that steeling is not only fair but honourable.

[the_austrian]

Statists ARE rentiers.

What's the penalty for not paying, btw?

What are you willing to do to me if I don't pay you your tribute?

The penalty for failure to pay would be the withholding of consent to defend your property from poachers and squatters.

[cells]

This idea is great and no party or country has the guts to do it. I have seen it discussed in the past.

* Basic Citizens wage amount to be discussed. £100 per week e.g.

* Cutting all other benefits including unemployment benefit, tax credits. Only pension stays and some disabled benefits.

* No minimum wage requirements.

* Flat Tax for everything. e.g 28% Income tax, Cap Gains Tax (put cap gains tax on first homes as well), Corp Tax, Bonuses. Income tax to be deducted from bank account (this way no need for employer admin burden).

* Getting rid of non dom tax. It is unfair when you have a system like this.

* The basic citizens wage gets progressively less the more your earn. e.g £40000 will get £0, £20000 will get you £50 a week.

If tax take is not enough to fund this a land tax can be introduced. This will stop the boom and bust of housing cycles.

Some green taxes might be used to create more tax take.

This will create incentive for people to work as the money is not enough to live on. Lower wages will result in lots of job creation (supply and demand). The simplification of tax would streamline HMRC. Also as minimum wage and unemployment benefits are gone there is no need for job centres anymore. Benefit fraud department can be closed.

Plans like this can greatly reduce the size of government and get people back to work.

Comments welcome.

You can have a citizens dividend but it would be pointless.

For the vast majority of people you would be taking £200 out of their right pocket and putting £190 into their left pocket (£10 cost to administer).

Some people would be better off, those on lower than the average wage of £25k while others will be worse off, those on higher than £25k.

Actually if it is extended onto everyone most likely anyone over £12k will be worse off while those under £12k will be better off.

You could not fund a citizens dividend with land taxes or green taxes or anything like that. You would have to cut other things, schools, NHS, all the ******** the government spends on.

Personally I wouldn’t object to the government shrinking 90% and using that money to give everyone a £150 citizens dividend. However with no schools/hospitals/ dustbin men/etc you would have to pay for those services out of your £150.

[the_austrian]

Simply because you can easily avoid a land tax by selling your land and buying cheaper land.

And if this results in more land being available the Land Tax has served its purpose.

A citizen's dividend is justified only because we are excluded from the land which we should have a right to, both in towns and in the countryside.

If prices fall, good, we can all go about our lives living in housing which costs a reasonable price and with access to land so that we can freely produce our own food without renting a field from a rentier farmer.

[Injin]

The penalty for failure to pay would be the withholding of consent to defend your property from poachers and squatters.

Great, I don't need any of that stuff.

[the_austrian]

Communists/socialists/statists whatever you wish to call them believe that you can write into law wealth and that steeling is not only fair but honourable.

Since that comment by Injin was addressed to me, can you tell me how anything said by me suggests either of your two claims??

[cells]

And if this results in more land being available the Land Tax has served its purpose.

A citizen's dividend is justified only because we are excluded from the land which we should have a right to, both in towns and in the countryside.

If prices fall, good, we can all go about our lives living in housing which costs a reasonable price and with access to land so that we can freely produce our own food without renting a field from a rentier farmer.

It would not necessarily mean more land is for sale but that all land has a lower value.

Prices are set on the margin; a single share changing hands can decrease the value of the other 1B shares in a company.

A land tax would not bring in much mula and would not do what most of you believe.

Hell there have been many communist countries in the world, why didn’t they implement it?

And the availability of land isn’t that bad, nor does lots of land being available help the poorer in some way. Are the Russian poor rich compared to those in the UK because they can buy plenty of land at £20 an acre?

[cells]

Since that comment by Injin was addressed to me, can you tell me how anything said by me suggests either of your two claims??

There?

I am a Communists/socialists/statists and I think we can write into law wealth and that steeling is not only fair but honourable.

[the_austrian]

It would not necessarily mean more land is for sale but that all land has a lower value.

Prices are set on the margin; a single share changing hands can decrease the value of the other 1B shares in a company.

A land tax would not bring in much mula and would not do what most of you believe.

Hell there have been many communist countries in the world, why didn’t they implement it?

And the availability of land isn’t that bad, nor does lots of land being available help the poorer in some way. Are the Russian poor rich compared to those in the UK because they can buy plenty of land at £20 an acre?

Can we go back to this question: Is there a reason to think that normal taxes such as Income Tax, VAT are more robust a source of revenue than a Land Tax? Why so?

The aim of a Land Tax over Income Tax is not that it can give revenue, the reverse, that it has appealing externalities; rentiers don't like it and the tenant class are protected from the inequality in property ownership.

[the_austrian]

There?

I guess that saved you some time from trawling through the first few pages of the thread

[cells]

Can we go back to this question: Is there a reason to think that normal taxes such as Income Tax, VAT are more robust a source of revenue than a Land Tax? Why so?

The aim of a Land Tax over Income Tax is not that it can give revenue, the reverse, that it has appealing externalities; rentiers don't like it and the tenant class are protected from the inequality in property ownership.

The inequality of property ownership?

Hummmmm……..

Can you read that aloud to yourself a couple of times and come back to me

[cells]

I guess that saved you some time from trawling through the first few pages of the thread

When I reply to you or anyone I don’t specifically reply to you but your argument and your point. Maybe its just me but I don’t memorise anyones names or posts, so if you and me are debating something tomorrow I wont even know it is you who I typed this message to.

So never take things personally or think they are directed at you.

So when I said communists like stealing and think they can write into law wealth it is a general comment on their viewpoints, not something you said or didn’t say.

Understand comrade?

[the_austrian]

The inequality of property ownership?

Hummmmm……..

Can you read that aloud to yourself a couple of times and come back to me

If you want to scream Socialist!! at me that's fine you are barking at the wind.

[the_austrian]

When I reply to you or anyone I don’t specifically reply to you but your argument and your point. Maybe its just me but I don’t memorise anyones names or posts, so if you and me are debating something tomorrow I wont even know it is you who I typed this message to.

So never take things personally or think they are directed at you.

So when I said communists like stealing and think they can write into law wealth it is a general comment on their viewpoints, not something you said or didn’t say.

Understand comrade?

That's cool, but my guess is that you are reading into things more than is apposite. Just because a person mentions property or the difficulties of being born into poverty does not require them to be a Statist.

[cells]

If you want to scream Socialist!! at me that's fine you are barking at the wind.

Most people are, its natural. However it doesn’t work and when tried and evaluated it is clear why it doesn’t work and results in poverty and hardship.

[cells]

A land tax would crash land prices which in many ways is desirable so I wouldn’t be against a modest land tax, say 2-3%.

However stop dreaming about funding a £200pw citizens bonus from such a tax. Not gona happen.

[Traktion]

We can have a land value tax OR heavily reduce planning regulation. As long as you aren't forced to live somewhere where prices are dear and you have no alternative, I don't think we need a LVT. Reducing planning regulation is also a hell of a lot easier and more likely to be implemented too.

A citizens income, for me, is the most palatable form of benefits. If we take it for granted that people need to be kept off the streets and to stop them robbing others, then some sort of benefits is needed. However, this should be only enough to get by on, not an excuse not to bother working. The admin would be very cheap, as it would just need to be a national payroll system - it would be easier to tax one pocket and give to the other, than trying to define what should be left in/added to the pocket, IMO.

The (most?) important thing about a CI is that it removes the poverty trap, caused by the distance between having lots of benefits and earning enough to make it worth not being on benefits. I'm not usually big on socialism/redistribution, but if it means I don't get robbed and people aren't begging on the streets, this seems a reasonable price to pay.

BTW, for the person who suggested tax on the bank account, how about just taxing the money when it is withdrawn instead? This way you can save for a pension without being taxed on your income unless it's in some "special" pension scheme. I'm not very fond of the idea of the government having its hands on my bank account in general though, as it would probably (certainly?) fuel a black market for cash payments. It would probably be better to just remove income tax altogether (it was supposed to be a temporary tax, remember?) and just tax on spending (sales tax/VAT etc).

Then we enter another rabbit hole though about VAT/sales taxes being regressive (as the rich aren't tapped to subsidise the poor). Of course, you could remove any sales tax on basics/essentials and accept that the rich will buy more "stuff" so pay more sales tax anyway. If you take the opinion that redistribution is just isn't fair (why should a high earner pay double for the same services?), then it becomes easy to accept though.

Of course, the politicians will just tinker and do none of the above until they are forced to anyway though.

[Stars]

Most people are, its natural. However it doesnt work and when tried and evaluated it is clear why it doesnt work and results in poverty and hardship.

I think he meant that when you say 'socialist', you are mischaracterising his position...and so by further pressing the point that socialism doesn't work, you are just doing it again.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Stars

[Stars]

With VAT or income tax you cannot decrease your liability easily short of leaving the country. Not the same with land taxes.

Anything above £50B would be near impossible with a land tax.

The first thing does not imply the second

Yes, you can 'avoid' a land tax, this is one of its strengths, but this doesn't mean that you will choose to do so. If the economic advantages of being in the centre of london are worth more to you than the payment then you will not move. The tax ends up being a charge for exclusive access to advantages created by all of us. If you don't want the advantage then you make room for others to use it by moving. If nobody wants it, the price falls to zero.

[Injin]

The first thing does not imply the second

Yes, you can 'avoid' a land tax, this is one of its strengths, but this doesn't mean that you will choose to do so. If the economic advantages of being in the centre of london are worth more to you than the payment then you will not move. The tax ends up being a charge for exclusive access to advantages created by all of us. If you don't want the advantage then you make room for others to use it by moving. If nobody wants it, the price falls to zero.

Theres a big market for being stuck in jail, is there?

[leicestersq]

We could scrap the following

JSA

Tax credits of all forms

Child benefit

State pension

DLA/Incapacity benefit

Replace with £200/wk citizen's wage, available to all citizen's once they reach 18 years of age

Taxation system would be a flat 30% on anything earned over the citizen's wage

Now, on the face of it, you'd expect Capitalists to support a system like this, but of course they wouldn't as it would empower people such that they would have the option not to take work that did not pay a rate they were happy with. For all their bleating, the truth is the status quo, suits the neoliberal agenda just fine.

Good idea. But the wage has to be way below what can be lived on, or else people wont work.

£80 - £100 is more reasonable.

A land tax would be a great idea. Would it be charged per acre, or according to the value of the land?

And any taxation system has to be progressive. None of this flat tax tosh, thats for Eastern Europeans who need to keep things simple.

You might need some sort of allowance for disabled people as well, to be apportioned by doctors. The total value of any such fund should be capped, so that if a limit is reached, then if anyone takes something out, then everyone else gets a bit less.

But those nit picks aside, such a wage works, and would cure so many ills.