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The Nhs, Why Is It Underfunded ?


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As an ex UK taxpayer I am seriously interested to know why the NHS is so underfunded. For an entire decade I was paying in the region of 500 quid a month in NI Contributions, and my employer was paying over double that on my behalf.

So please tell me how on earth 1,500 pcm is not enough to fund my healthcare and pension ?

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As an ex UK taxpayer I am seriously interested to know why the NHS is so underfunded. For an entire decade I was paying in the region of 500 quid a month in NI Contributions, and my employer was paying over double that on my behalf.

So please tell me how on earth 1,500 pcm is not enough to fund my healthcare and pension ?

You were paying for the care of existing beneficiaries. Any excess was extracted for other purposes.

Your future care will rely on the payments of following cohorts.

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As an ex UK taxpayer I am seriously interested to know why the NHS is so underfunded. For an entire decade I was paying in the region of 500 quid a month in NI Contributions, and my employer was paying over double that on my behalf.

So please tell me how on earth 1,500 pcm is not enough to fund my healthcare and pension ?

" Underfunded" is one of those nonsense phrases beloved of the public sector, the way to look at it is that if you said to the NHS tomorrow that the budget is doubled all the extra money would be spent and the next year even with the same budget the cry of underfunding would ring out and would become deafening if even a 5% cut was brought in ;)

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Guest absolutezero

You were paying for the care of existing beneficiaries. Any excess was extracted for other purposes.

Your future care will rely on the payments of following cohorts.

100% correct, guaranteed.

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It's not underfunded

It's wasted , the NHS budget has gone up form 51 Billion in ( i think it is 1997 or 2001) not sure which to over 101 Billion now. But so much of it is wasted on management crap ect. My brother a credit controller has to contact some of the Quangos that are part of the NHS , and some of the names of these he says are unbeleivable , what they do is anyones guess. That's why your health care is not funded adequatly.

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I think for most people the only public service they access is the NHS save for having a dustbin emptied over their front pavement once fortnight, of which is half empty as the rats have eaten most of the refuse anyway.

I really cannot understand what on earth this Government can be doing with all this money. My pay deductions to Gordon Brown for income tax and NI were three times my Mortgage!!!!

If we took the taxes on VAT, Car Tax, and Council Tax, and Congestion Charging, and they tell us we will not get a state pension, or fully funded healthcare, then surely something is seriously wrong and like a business they should be wound up ?

I am shocked by the monies taken by this Government from citizens in the UK.

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As an ex UK taxpayer I am seriously interested to know why the NHS is so underfunded. For an entire decade I was paying in the region of 500 quid a month in NI Contributions, and my employer was paying over double that on my behalf.

So please tell me how on earth 1,500 pcm is not enough to fund my healthcare and pension ?

Massive managerial excess, high drug costs and reliance on primitive therapies which prolong interaction with the health service and inflate costs.

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Massive managerial excess, high drug costs and reliance on primitive therapies which prolong interaction with the health service and inflate costs.

When it comes to Drugs costs.

Why do British Universities and Hospitals get billions of taxpayers money for research, then when they get a breakthrough the Drugs companies use the technology and charge the taxpayer again for using the drug ?

The British Government employ tens of thousands of Scientists, would it not be possible to take a few off of Climate Change/ Star Gazing duties and assign them to creating cheaper drugs for the taxpayer ?

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I think for most people the only public service they access is the NHS save for having a dustbin emptied over their front pavement once fortnight, of which is half empty as the rats have eaten most of the refuse anyway.

I really cannot understand what on earth this Government can be doing with all this money. My pay deductions to Gordon Brown for income tax and NI were three times my Mortgage!!!!

If we took the taxes on VAT, Car Tax, and Council Tax, and Congestion Charging, and they tell us we will not get a state pension, or fully funded healthcare, then surely something is seriously wrong and like a business they should be wound up ?

I am shocked by the monies taken by this Government from citizens in the UK.

Plus fag tax, insurance tax, petrol tax, stamp duty, capital gains tax, death duties, driving fines, savings tax, land registray charges, passport cost's , corparation tax,

businness rates, councils charging for services that they should be doing from the money they already get. Oh airport tax, and I bet there are some more not listed here but it is getting late.

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When it comes to Drugs costs.

Why do British Universities and Hospitals get billions of taxpayers money for research, then when they get a breakthrough the Drugs companies use the technology and charge the taxpayer again for using the drug ?

The British Government employ tens of thousands of Scientists, would it not be possible to take a few off of Climate Change/ Star Gazing duties and assign them to creating cheaper drugs for the taxpayer ?

Heh, breakthrough therapies don't really enter the public domain, indeed it's been a very long time since medical science via the pharmaceutical industry really cured any significant disease. It's no coincidence that the hypercommercialization of drug development coincided with a shift from the development of true cures to disease management; see HIV and cancer as good examples of this. Leukocyte InFusion therapy for example is a hugely promising treatment for all types of cancer (the medical establishment has taken to categorising cancer as 100 different diseases because it creates greater scope for profit, the truth is it is one disease with one fundamental cause: uncontrolled cell proliferation). Because this treatment cannot be patented and does not involve drugs (rather transfused blood products) there is no profit for the pharma industry and so not only do they not want to know, but they do their best to prevent government funding going towards developing this treatment. Gc-maf is another discovery that is hugely promising for for cancer and HIV, as it is unpatentable the pharma industry has spent a few years trying to produce an analog that they can patent. This is why a free market in healthcare is always a moral disaster as you're basically feeding the sick to a pack of jackals.

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Because everytime it becomes sufficiently funded some bright spark decides that it should also offer IVF, or maybe free strawberry flavour condoms, or maybe gastric bands, or maybe cosmetic surgery, or maybe boob jobs, or maybe surgery to turn Derek, aged 42 from blackpool, into Britney Spears.

It will never end.

Unless you want your teeth fixed. Thats a no-no. Who needs teeth anyway.

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Because everytime it becomes sufficiently funded some bright spark decides that it should also offer IVF, or maybe free strawberry flavour condoms, or maybe gastric bands, or maybe cosmetic surgery, or maybe boob jobs, or maybe surgery to turn Derek, aged 42 from blackpool, into Britney Spears.

It will never end.

Unless you want your teeth fixed. Thats a no-no. Who needs teeth anyway.

Judging by the teen pregnancy rates the condoms are not being used anyway.

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The NHS isn't underfunded. At current spending levels the NHS currently provides each UK citizen with the equivalent of £2000 worth of treatment. If like me you rarely use the NHS then you'd be better off by opting out and saving the money entirely or by splitting it between savings and cheaper private health insurance. Then when the time comes at least I have control over my health instead of having my financial options limited by the incompetent hand of the state.

Personally I never purchase insurance unless I have to because its cheaper to cut out the middle men and deal with one off costs as and when they arise, well NI is no exception. Actually NI is much much worse because I know full well that my insurance money isn't being put aside in a pot somewhere with 'Dave' written on it, its being spent on a diversity officers overblown wage packet. So when I really need the treatment I find that the pot's empty and I don't have the spare cash to deal with my costs myself because my earnings have all been taxed away.

A proper free market in health (not the American system) would save this country £billions and significantly improve the quality of haealthcare too. Whats often forgotten is that because the gov't is the customer the NHS has absolutely no incentive to improve conditions for the patients so the overall quality of the NHS remains low.

It definately needs some free market reforms.

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It's not underfunded

It's wasted , the NHS budget has gone up form 51 Billion in ( i think it is 1997 or 2001) not sure which to over 101 Billion now. But so much of it is wasted on management crap ect. My brother a credit controller has to contact some of the Quangos that are part of the NHS , and some of the names of these he says are unbeleivable , what they do is anyones guess. That's why your health care is not funded adequatly.

Current NHS spending is in the region of £120bn.

total_expenditure_pie_chart.jpg

http://budget.treasury.gov.uk/where_taxpayers_money_is_spent.htm

Edited by chefdave
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As an ex UK taxpayer I am seriously interested to know why the NHS is so underfunded. For an entire decade I was paying in the region of 500 quid a month in NI Contributions, and my employer was paying over double that on my behalf.

So please tell me how on earth 1,500 pcm is not enough to fund my healthcare and pension ?

It isn't underfunded, just overstaffed with bureaucrats.

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The NHS isn't underfunded. At current spending levels the NHS currently provides each UK citizen with the equivalent of £2000 worth of treatment. If like me you rarely use the NHS then you'd be better off by opting out and saving the money entirely or by splitting it between savings and cheaper private health insurance. Then when the time comes at least I have control over my health instead of having my financial options limited by the incompetent hand of the state.

Including the contributions of your employer, someone on average wage will be paying £5000 per year in NI, or alternativley £200,000 over a 40 year working lifetime. I'd rather stash that away in a bank account thank you very much. It'd certainly pay for a lot of pension and a lot of healthcare. A higher earner will have paid MUCH more than this. The last year I spent in the UK, I must have easily paid 10k NI, including employer contribs. I'd ban or restrict medical insurance too - it only leads to uncontrolled cost rises.

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As an ex UK taxpayer I am seriously interested to know why the NHS is so underfunded. For an entire decade I was paying in the region of 500 quid a month in NI Contributions, and my employer was paying over double that on my behalf.

So please tell me how on earth 1,500 pcm is not enough to fund my healthcare and pension ?

first off, NI is just another form of general taxation- not really specific to pay for healthcare but just another method to disguise the true level of income tax. Your figures seem a little suspect - if your paying £500 NI per month, then you must be earning approx 17-18k per month- hardly the average tax payer. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/calcs/nice.htm You contribute much more than the average taxpayer, but thats the society we live in.

Now on to healthcare, i dont feel the NHS is particularly inefficient, its just that healthcare is very expensive and the NHS is free at the point of delivery. If you have a system where the product or service is free at the point of delivery- demand will inevitably increase. I work in both the NHS and private practice and it is notable the the percentage of patients who actually have anything wrong with the is much greater in private practice. Its common sense i suppose- if you are gonna fork out £300 just to see me, you gonna make dam sure the consultation is really needed. In my NHS clinic- it is not uncommon for patients to come to clinic even if the original complaint has completely resolved. I've even had patient come to see me who forgot what there original symptoms were -'just for a check up!' I estimate about 95% of patients in my private practice have an organic illness wheras that figure drops to about 30-40% in the NHS. Therein lies the problem!

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Now on to healthcare, i dont feel the NHS is particularly inefficient,

Maybe not from your point of view but as a 'customer' the NHS is pretty dire when compared to other forms of healthcare. The general attitude from the frontline staff is one where they don't want to know and tbh this is understandable given the way they're funded.

The difference in the two emergency forms of treatment I've recently experienced are worlds apart. I had to go to A&E before xmas and as I expected the the service was awful, having to wait around for at least an hour before I got to see anyone and then when I did she was useless anyway. As a comparison I had to go to for some emergency private dental treatment yesterday and saw the dentist with 10 mins of arriving, they seemed genuinely concerned and were extremely helpful too.

Trying to see the doctor is exactly the same, they'll do all they can to not let you come down to the practice. If I want to see a GP I now have to discuss my ailment with the receptionist over the phone before they'll even let me speak to the doctor (what the fvck ever happened to doctor-patient confidentiality?). Then if they're not sure they put him on to try and convince me not to bother coming and that its someone elses problem.

Not to mention the ridiculous appointment system where you have can only book up on the day, can you imagine if a private sector business tried to run like that? They'd be wound up within weeks as their customers went elsewhere.

Maybe I'm just unlucky when it comes to nationalised healthcare, I know its not all bad but it could be a heck of a lot better.

Edited by chefdave
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Maybe not from your point of view but as a 'customer' the NHS is pretty dire when compared to other forms of healthcare. The general attitude from the frontline staff is one where they don't want to know and tbh this is understandable given the way they're funded.

The difference in the two emergency forms of treatment I've recently experienced are worlds apart. I had to go to A&E before xmas and as I expected the the service was awful, having to wait around for at least an hour before I got to see anyone and then when I did she was useless anyway. As a comparison I had to go to for some emergency private dental treatment yesterday and saw the dentist with 10 mins of arriving, they seemed genuinely concerned and were extremely helpful too.

Trying to see the doctor is exactly the same, they'll do all they can to not let you come down to the practice. If I want to see a GP I now have to discuss my ailment with the receptionist over the phone before they'll even let me speak to the doctor (what the fvck ever happened to doctor-patient confidentiality?). Then if they're not sure they put him on to try and convince me not to bother coming and that its someone elses problem.

Not to mention the ridiculous appointment system where you have can only book up on the day, can you imagine if a private sector business tried to run like that? They'd be wound up within weeks as their customers went elsewhere.

Maybe I'm just unlucky when it comes to nationalised healthcare, I know its not all bad but it could be a heck of a lot better.

Thats just a reflection of supply and demand- i bet if everyone had to pay say £50 for a GP/casualty appointment (like an ''insurance excess''), demand would fall and you would get to see a doctor much more quickly! problem is because its free, many people see there GP/go to casualy when they dont really need to-with the enevitable result the truely sick/ill patients have to wait longer

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Thats just a reflection of supply and demand- i bet if everyone had to pay say £50 for a GP/casualty appointment (like an ''insurance excess''), demand would fall and you would get to see a doctor much more quickly! problem is because its free, many people see there GP/go to casualy when they dont really need to-with the enevitable result the truely sick/ill patients have to wait longer

Not really, if it was a genuine case of supply vs demand then the NHS would increase supply to meet the demand. The NHS's solution though is to artificially restrict demand so that they can cut down the costs of patient care and meet government targets.

The sort of argument you use would never be applicable to the free market. Could you imagine asking for an price increase in plumbers, because the current crop just can't deal with the workload so they need to cut down their customer base? It would never happen. Its not the customers fault that the NHS is too slow to repsond its the suppliers, if it wasn't a government monopoly they'd have been sacked long ago.

Edited by chefdave
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I have serious doubts about devolving NHS management to local levels.

I know the theory about 'responding to local needs' and 'accountability'.

But it seems to encourage duplication, waste and daft local initiatives.

Foe example, a maternity hospital has a problem with absenteeism and inadequate staffing levels.

So they propose a shift pattern of based onthree 12 hour days or six six hour days.

Would you risk having a child where the overstretched midwife has been working for nearly 12 hours?

Does working six days a week fit well with domestic demands for most women?

I have just lost an Employment Tribunal case where the NHS Trust said they could not afford to make the Reasonable Adjustments required by the disability legislation. But they could afford to spend £50,000 in legal costs to protect their manager's reputation and bonus.

I think that is much the same as fraud.

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Not really, if it was a genuine case of supply vs demand then the NHS would increase supply to meet the demand. The NHS's solution though is to artificially restrict demand so that they can cut down the costs of patient care and meet government targets.

The sort of argument you use would never be applicable to the free market. Could you imagine asking for an price increase in plumbers, because the current crop just can't deal with the workload so they need to cut down their customer base? It would never happen. Its not the customers fault that the NHS is too slow to repsond its the suppliers, if it wasn't a government monopoly they'd have been sacked long ago.

what absolute tosh! so you obviously havent insured a car, house or ever hired a car............ask yourself what is the purpose of the insurance excess whereby you pay the first amount of any claim in return for a lower premium? In the free market goods or services are not free at the point of demand- just imagine what would happen if they were! Going to tescos, local BMW show room etc................all free at the point of demand and paid through taxation?....................ridiculous!

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what absolute tosh! so you obviously havent insured a car, house or ever hired a car............ask yourself what is the purpose of the insurance excess whereby you pay the first amount of any claim in return for a lower premium? In the free market goods or services are not free at the point of demand- just imagine what would happen if they were! Going to tescos, local BMW show room etc................all free at the point of demand and paid through taxation?....................ridiculous!

Well thats kinda my point. If Tescos was funded like the NHS then the service levels would drop to a point where it barely functioned as a company, it would be much much worse than it is currently because Tesco's would no longer be restrained by market forces. The government would now be the paymasters so those using the service would no longer be in control, and if the customer can't exercise their veto option by switching to a competitor then there's no incentive for the suppliers to raise their game.

The fault doesn't lay with the customers taking up too much time, its because the NHS is utterly unresponsive to patient needs.

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  • 433 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


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