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What Should The Public Sector Provide?


tahoma
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I was unaware you had the power to compel me to follow your rules or expel me from this place.

Not my rules, those put in place by a democratically elected government. For all the faults the UK has, parliamentary democracy is not one of them. Only those that have never experienced the collapse of a state could possibly speak so loosely and so ignorantly about democracy. Of course Bogbrush san, it's not that you want government to go away, you simply want it a la carte. You want the framework it provides that benefits your business, but you want to do away with anything that stands in your way. Yours is the outlook of a child, unable to understand why anything should ever operate contrary to its wishes.

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Not my rules, those put in place by a democratically elected government. For all the faults the UK has, parliamentary democracy is not one of them. Only those that have never experienced the collapse of a state could possibly speak so loosely and so ignorantly about democracy. Of course Bogbrush san, it's not that you want government to go away, you simply want it a la carte. You want the framework it provides that benefits your business, but you want to do away with anything that stands in your way. Yours is the outlook of a child, unable to understand why anything should ever operate contrary to its wishes.

But you already agreed that people can't legitimately vote to harm others.

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Right.

And?

how does thsi mean you can vote yourself the right to murder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment

Other countries have democratically elected governments that take a different approach. Democracies are not always about what is right in an abstract moral sense, they simply reflect the will of the people. For one so fond of existentialist musings I am surprised to see you talk of rights as rights only exist within a moral consensus (a democracy if you will). Rights are conferred by the majority onto all, they do not exist independently of the will of the majority.

Edited by Boom Boom
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment

Other countries have democratically elected governments that take a different approach. Democracies are not always about what is right in an abstract moral sense, they simply reflect the will of the people. For one so fond of existentialist musings I am surprised to see you talk of rights as rights only exist within a moral consensus (a democracy if you will). they do not exist Rights are conferred by the majority onto all, they do not exist independently of the will of the majority.

Ok, so you are saying you have the right to murder people and you handed that right to someone else, is that correct?

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Ok, so you are saying you have the right to murder people and you handed that right to someone else, is that correct?

Rights are a social construct, they exist only because societal consensus deems them necessary or desirable. You question is meaningless as your a priori assumption is flawed. 'Rights' are nothing more than those things society deems acceptable and those things it does not, and they evolve with the moral zeitgeist.

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Rights are a social construct, they exist only because societal consensus deems them necessary or desirable. You question is meaningless as your a priori assumption is flawed. 'Rights' are nothing more than those things society deems acceptable and those things it does not, and they evolve with the moral zeitgeist.

So you are saying that there are no rights and it's all a matter of opinion based on "society"?

But in this "society" at this time you have the right to murder people but have handed it to someone else?

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So you are saying that there are no rights and it's all a matter of opinion based on "society"?

But in this "society" at this time you have the right to murder people but have handed it to someone else?

Rights exist, but only because society enforces them. No enforcement, no rights. As for your second question, where did I say I have the right to murder>

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Not my rules, those put in place by a democratically elected government. For all the faults the UK has, parliamentary democracy is not one of them. Only those that have never experienced the collapse of a state could possibly speak so loosely and so ignorantly about democracy. Of course Bogbrush san, it's not that you want government to go away, you simply want it a la carte. You want the framework it provides that benefits your business, but you want to do away with anything that stands in your way. Yours is the outlook of a child, unable to understand why anything should ever operate contrary to its wishes.

Whether or not I would select to live dominated by a state is immaterial, it is that all people are denied the choice (and telling them that if they don't like it they can get the Hell off the place isn't your right to say). Think about it; a baby is born and without any choice in the matter is compelled to attend a school where all sorts of stuff decided on by politicians is stuffed into their heads, they are constrained from settling where they would like to without causing harm to others, they are stopped from trading their labour at a rate of their own choosing, they are denied the right to trade goods without permission from the state, they are forbidden from creating their own means of exchange... I could go on, the list is endless.

How is that right and fair?

As for myself, the point you make is stupid. I adapt to this situation because I can't change it. If there were a completely different one and land/property/laws etc were on a wholly different basis I'd have had to adapt to that one too.

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Rights exist, but only because society enforces them. No enforcement, no rights. As for your second question, where did I say I have the right to murder>

You said that whatever the government does it does because people have given it the power to do so.

You can only give powers you have, so if the government is murdering (which it obviously is, left right and centre) then it must have got that power from you. unless you are going to say you are not one of the people or something.

Also, I have the right to go to the shops or to speak my mind. These are rights which are not enforced, they happen because I am NOT forced. Most rights people have happen because of an absence of enforcement.

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Whether or not I would select to live dominated by a state is immaterial, it is that all people are denied the choice (and telling them that if they don't like it they can get the Hell off the place isn't your right to say). Think about it; a baby is born and without any choice in the matter is compelled to attend a school where all sorts of stuff decided on by politicians is stuffed into their heads, they are constrained from settling where they would like to without causing harm to others, they are stopped from trading their labour at a rate of their own choosing, they are denied the right to trade goods without permission from the state, they are forbidden from creating their own means of exchange... I could go on, the list is endless.

How is that right and fair?

As for myself, the point you make is stupid. I adapt to this situation because I can't change it. If there were a completely different one and land/property/laws etc were on a wholly different basis I'd have had to adapt to that one too.

You seem to have the same deficiency of understanding as Injin. Rights are conferred by society as a whole, they have no independent existence. There isn't some ethereal book of rights, nor a celestial enforcer of those rights (of course this fact does not stop some people believing otherwise). When you say' the right to trade goods' what you really mean is the permission granted by society as a whole. In some societies that permission is granted and in others it is not. Your problem is that you cannot accept that the consensus will not always be in line with what you want. Maybe you should buy yourself a small island and from there you can be at the centre of your own moral universe.

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You seem to have the same deficiency of understanding as Injin. Rights are conferred by society as a whole, they have no independent existence. There isn't some ethereal book of rights, nor a celestial enforcer of those rights (of course this fact does not stop some people believing otherwise). When you say' the right to trade goods' what you really mean is the permission granted by society as a whole. In some societies that permission is granted and in others it is not. Your problem is that you cannot accept that the consensus will not always be in line with what you want. Maybe you should buy yourself a small island and from there you can be at the centre of your own moral universe.

Society is just the name for a group of people.

It can't have any properties that those people don't have.

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You said that whatever the government does it does because people have given it the power to do so.

You can only give powers you have, so if the government is murdering (which it obviously is, left right and centre) then it must have got that power from you. unless you are going to say you are not one of the people or something.

Also, I have the right to go to the shops or to speak my mind. These are rights which are not enforced, they happen because I am NOT forced. Most rights people have happen because of an absence of enforcement.

Rights are an emergent property. The collective authority of the people confers upon the state certain permissions, those things for which wider society will stand and those things it will not. The rights you list exist also because the state has denied others the right to stop you.

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You seem to have the same deficiency of understanding as Injin. Rights are conferred by society as a whole, they have no independent existence. There isn't some ethereal book of rights, nor a celestial enforcer of those rights (of course this fact does not stop some people believing otherwise). When you say' the right to trade goods' what you really mean is the permission granted by society as a whole. In some societies that permission is granted and in others it is not. Your problem is that you cannot accept that the consensus will not always be in line with what you want. Maybe you should buy yourself a small island and from there you can be at the centre of your own moral universe.

Do you think the will of the majority should overrule the liberty of the individual in all cases?

Edited by bogbrush
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Rights are an emergent property.

No, they happen because nothing occurs, that is people don't attack me for doing them. Doing nothing isn't emergent, it's default.

The collective authority of the people confers upon the state certain permissions, those things for which wider society will stand and those things it will not. The rights you list exist also because the state has denied others the right to stop you.

Ok, so you have the right to murder but pass it to the state.

Right?

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No, they happen because nothing occurs, that is people don't attack me for doing them. Doing nothing isn't emergent, it's default.

Ok, so you have the right to murder but pass it to the state.

Right?

I don't have that right individually because I have not by a democratic process had conferred upon me that permission.

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I don't have that right individually because I have not by a democratic process had conferred upon me that permission.

No, you said the government is given the right by you.

"People" - that is you and me and everyone else have a right.

We give up this right to the state, transferring the right we had to the government.

Now you are saying it's the other way around. What's the story?

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What are you talking about you illiterate cretin? I've just spent the last few post arguing about how consensus rule is the only reasonable way to organise a society.

no, you've just spent the last few posts arguing that bogbrush should be forced if he doesn't agree with you.

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So if most people think I was to blame for their countries failure it's ok to make me wear a six pointed star on my clothing, then maybe gas me?

Godwin's law writ large

It was obviously deemed ok by enough people for the consensus to support it. The moral zeitgeist changes, it does not always produce optimal outcomes, and of course sometimes it produces what with the eye of history will be deemed moral horrors. The problem is that you've still got all your work ahead of you. Are atrocities confined to demotic systems of government? Are atrocities absent from countries without governance?

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no, you've just spent the last few posts arguing that bogbrush should be forced if he doesn't agree with you.

Consensus means majority opinion. In a democracy if Bogbrush was doing something that the majority deemed unacceptable he would be stopped. You seem to think consensus means the will of in the individual trumps all.

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