What Should The Public Sector Provide?

[tahoma]

There is an awful lot of public sector bashing here, much of it by me. What do HPCers think the public sector should provide, and how, for how much? Here is mine:

Public sector to provide:

Courts (to enforce contracts, punish fraud and the initiation of violence).

Police (see above). Strictly non-politicised, no pull peddling or special interests ie ACPO, Black Police Association etc

Schooling to age 18 (with strict syllabus enforcing 3Rs at minimum, any kid persistently disrupting class to be expelled)

Road & Rail infrastructure (private rail operators fine).

Army/Navy for defence alone, much of which could be based on the TA and volunteers. No overseas adventures.

Of this, as much of the work as possible should be carried out by private sector firms, with a 100% transparent tender and contract process. No 'public sector pensions' of any kind allowed: all people, private or public, to make their own pension arrangements. Bonuses in public sector for those who find ways to SAVE money rather than slash it up the wall with wild abandon.

Total spend on above:

Tightly controlled by percentage of GDP, I feel this should be <=20%.

Above financed by:

15% flat tax rate on income and capital gains above £10K pa, 10% basic VAT, 25% luxury good VAT. No tax on savings, pensions or income derived from them.

No changes - NONE - to the above without a referendum rending 65% of the vote, apart from regularly upping the zero-tax rate to avoid fiscal drag.

I am not saying life would be perfect under these conditions. It never is.

[LuckyOne]

There is an awful lot of public sector bashing here, much of it by me. What do HPCers think the public sector should provide, and how, for how much? Here is mine:

Public sector to provide:

Courts (to enforce contracts, punish fraud and the initiation of violence).

Police (see above). Strictly non-politicised, no pull peddling or special interests ie ACPO, Black Police Association etc

Schooling to age 18 (with strict syllabus enforcing 3Rs at minimum, any kid persistently disrupting class to be expelled)

Road & Rail infrastructure (private rail operators fine).

Army/Navy for defence alone, much of which could be based on the TA and volunteers. No overseas adventures.

Of this, as much of the work as possible should be carried out by private sector firms, with a 100% transparent tender and contract process. No 'public sector pensions' of any kind allowed: all people, private or public, to make their own pension arrangements. Bonuses in public sector for those who find ways to SAVE money rather than slash it up the wall with wild abandon.

Total spend on above:

Tightly controlled by percentage of GDP, I feel this should be <=20%.

Above financed by:

15% flat tax rate on income and capital gains above £10K pa, 10% basic VAT, 25% luxury good VAT. No tax on savings, pensions or income derived from them.

No changes - NONE - to the above without a referendum rending 65% of the vote, apart from regularly upping the zero-tax rate to avoid fiscal drag.

I am not saying life would be perfect under these conditions. It never is.

Could I suggest that the flat tax be raised to 20% and that we have a negative income tax of 10k paid to everyone over 18 and 5k paid to everyone under 18 to replace the entire social support infrastructure than we have in place?

[Chrysalis]

such a policy splits britian into two and a civil war would start. I guess thats why the police are needed to defend the new upper class this would serve?

[codeine]

Why would the above split Britain in two?

[Injin]

What's the difference in methodology between the public and private sectors?

[The Spaniard]

What Should The Public Sector Provide?

Here's something for starters: A debt-free, permanently circulating means of exchange, issued publicly as a utility for us to run our economy.

Once the money is in circulation, they should then, as far as possible, leave us alone to conduct our business.

[tahoma]

Could I suggest that the flat tax be raised to 20% and that we have a negative income tax of 10k paid to everyone over 18 and 5k paid to everyone under 18 to replace the entire social support infrastructure than we have in place?

No. Citizen's incomes as you describe would just encourage the lazy to sit on their a*ses.

Nor do I want to encourage people who cannot afford them to have children. This island is crowded enough, a degree of depopulation would not do any harm. In fact, I would be tempted to make contraception alone free to anyone earning less than the zero rate tax band.

Just watch the Karen Matthews' of this world keep their knees together once the concept of inescapable personal responsibility hammers home through the Stella induced fog.

[The Masked Tulip]

So no health care then? Hmm...

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

What's the difference in methodology between the public and private sectors?

Is it that my salary is paid by threats of kidnapping?

[tahoma]

such a policy splits britian into two and a civil war would start. I guess thats why the police are needed to defend the new upper class this would serve?

If 'upper class' is a euphemism for 'people who are willing to think for themselves and work for a living', then yes, you are correct.

And I know it is a cheap shot, but is anyone else tired of how appalling the spelling and grammar of the few remaining lefty mouthpieces is?

[The Spaniard]

What Should The Public Sector Provide?

In general and to a first approximation, I would ask:

What do we need to provide maximally collectively, from the perspective of ourselves as an inclusive, inter-dependent community?

[RichB]

In addition:

Water

Power

Gas

Refuse Collection

Parking enforcement (the proper ones, not the jumped up shits on commission/targets)

Libraries

[tim123]

Total spend on above:

Tightly controlled by percentage of GDP, I feel this should be <=20%.

Above financed by:

15% flat tax rate on income and capital gains above £10K pa, 10% basic VAT, 25% luxury good VAT. No tax on savings, pensions or income derived from them.

How does a tax of less than 15% of GDP collect 20% of GDP

tim

Edited February 23, 2010 by tim123

[bogbrush]

It is not for any of us to dictate what a "public sector" should provide. That should be up to the people who wish to live that way.

The issue is the compulsion to belong to the group.

[tim123]

There is an awful lot of public sector bashing here, much of it by me. What do HPCers think the public sector should provide, and how, for how much? Here is mine:

Public sector to provide:

Courts (to enforce contracts, punish fraud and the initiation of violence).

Police (see above). Strictly non-politicised, no pull peddling or special interests ie ACPO, Black Police Association etc

Schooling to age 18 (with strict syllabus enforcing 3Rs at minimum, any kid persistently disrupting class to be expelled)

Road & Rail infrastructure (private rail operators fine).

Army/Navy for defence alone, much of which could be based on the TA and volunteers. No overseas adventures.

So, no state funded Pensions, Health Care or Welfare Benefits.

How are these to be paid for?

And if your answer is that people should self insure, how do we deal with the 99% of the population that have already contributed into the state system and are expecting that to pay, some from tomorrow (literally)?

(And that's before we get to the discussion of whether a State provided system is actually cheaper for most individuals).

tim

[fluffy666]

It is not for any of us to dictate what a "public sector" should provide. That should be up to the people who wish to live that way.

The issue is the compulsion to belong to the group.

There is no compulsion. Feel free to move to a nice, government-free paradise like Somalia. Or the tribal areas of Pakistan, where they take a very strong line on tax inspectors.

Basically, you seem to want all the benefits of living in a first world country - which includes a social contract involving things like healthcare and social security - without paying for it, despite the fact that you seem to do extremely well out of living in such a country. The phrase 'Ungrateful freeloader' would seem to apply..

[Injin]

There is no compulsion. Feel free to move to a nice, government-free paradise like Somalia. Or the tribal areas of Pakistan, where they take a very strong line on tax inspectors.

Basically, you seem to want all the benefits of living in a first world country - which includes a social contract involving things like healthcare and social security - without paying for it, despite the fact that you seem to do extremely well out of living in such a country. The phrase 'Ungrateful freeloader' would seem to apply..

Nah, you are here trying to offering gifts and then using guilt/reciprocity to gain control. It's spectacularly mentally ill.

No one owes you anything unless they agree, no matter what you give to them.

[fluffy666]

Nah, you are here trying to offering gifts and then using guilt/reciprocity to gain control. It's spectacularly mentally ill.

Actually, I'm saying that without a social contract, making and holding on to any wealth is spectacularly difficult.

No one owes you anything unless they agree, no matter what you give to them.

As I've explained, that kind of political philosophy works fine for a small, isolated group. For a larger group, more sophistication is required; however, explaining this to someone who is absolutely determined not to listen is hard.

[Injin]

Actually, I'm saying that without a social contract, making and holding on to any wealth is spectacularly difficult.

No clue what this means, sorry.

Who does what where?

As I've explained, that kind of political philosophy works fine for a small, isolated group. For a larger group, more sophistication is required; however, explaining this to someone who is absolutely determined not to listen is hard.

Sorry, I have no real desire to be controled by dipshit moral arguments or ad hominems.

Can you make a logical case for what you are saying please, starting from the ground up?

I owe you money/time and energy because......<something more than middle class hand wringing goes here, Fluffster.>

[tahoma]

How does a tax of less than 15% of GDP collect 20% of GDP

People do not take their money and burn it in the garden incinerator. They spend it. The remainder would come from my consumption based taxes.

Plus, notice I said <=20%. If the tax take drops, so does the public sector spend.

[bogbrush]

So, no state funded Pensions, Health Care or Welfare Benefits.

How are these to be paid for?

And if your answer is that people should self insure, how do we deal with the 99% of the population that have already contributed into the state system and are expecting that to pay, some from tomorrow (literally)?

(And that's before we get to the discussion of whether a State provided system is actually cheaper for most individuals).

tim

They have been defrauded; you don't fix that by defrauding some more people.

Cost and funding is irrelevent; freedom is the issue.

[tahoma]

In addition:

Water

Power

Gas

Refuse Collection

Parking enforcement (the proper ones, not the jumped up shits on commission/targets)

Libraries

I'll accept small Libraries as part of schools (although the internet renders much of their service moot). The others can be private, as they mainly are already.

[bogbrush]

There is no compulsion. Feel free to move to a nice, government-free paradise like Somalia. Or the tribal areas of Pakistan, where they take a very strong line on tax inspectors.

Basically, you seem to want all the benefits of living in a first world country - which includes a social contract involving things like healthcare and social security - without paying for it, despite the fact that you seem to do extremely well out of living in such a country. The phrase 'Ungrateful freeloader' would seem to apply..

1. I'll live where I like, thanks. You have no authority over me to tell me to leave this place just because you want to join a club and I might not.

2. Who says I want what? Who even says I would choose not to pay? I am not writing from my personal position but from the logical one that starts with "who the f*ck is anyone to tell another what they must do?".

Edited February 23, 2010 by bogbrush

[fluffy666]

1. I'll live where I like, thanks. You have no authority over me to tell me to leave this place just because you want to join a club and I might not.

And you have no authority over me to tell me what is your property and what isn't. OK? I don't ever recall giving my direct consent for you to own anything, and you are saying that no general social contract exists.

2. Who says I want what? Who even says I would choose not to pay? I am not writing from my personal position but from the logical one that starts with "who the f*ck is anyone to tell another what they must do?".

That's not a logical position. It's a pretty infantile one; most kids get out of it by the age of 3.

[Executive Sadman]

The NHS should be a health service, not a family planning service. No free abortions for irresponsible teens, no IVF for 40+ yo career obsessed housewifes.