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The Great British Sense Of Entitlement

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Is it possible that buyers are too picky?

Seen an article in the Local paper about a cop from the area.

He was bemoaning the fact that he couldnt afford a house in the area where he was brought up.

He went on to say that he father had bought the house in the 1970's for £3000 and it was now worth "over £500k" - prices he could not afford on a constables salary.

Neatly hidden at the end of the article was a reference to his fathers occupation - Civil Engineering. Can people really be so naive as to think that their salaries (in their 20s) should entitle them to live where their better-qualified and better-paid family members live?

I have no illusions regarding the fact that I cannot afford my parents house or to live in the area they live in. But they didnt start there, they got there through 40 years of work.

Im beginning to wonder if some of this wishing for HPC is nothing more than the middle-classes acting in the same way as the "chavs" they so despise - they feel they are entitled to everything.

Any views on this?

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Is it possible that buyers are too picky?

Seen an article in the Local paper about a cop from the area.

He was bemoaning the fact that he couldnt afford a house in the area where he was brought up.

He went on to say that he father had bought the house in the 1970's for £3000 and it was now worth "over £500k" - prices he could not afford on a constables salary.

Neatly hidden at the end of the article was a reference to his fathers occupation - Civil Engineering. Can people really be so naive as to think that their salaries (in their 20s) should entitle them to live where their better-qualified and better-paid family members live?

I have no illusions regarding the fact that I cannot afford my parents house or to live in the area they live in. But they didnt start there, they got there through 40 years of work.

Im beginning to wonder if some of this wishing for HPC is nothing more than the middle-classes acting in the same way as the "chavs" they so despise - they feel they are entitled to everything.

Any views on this?

What do you mean 'too picky?'. If they can't buy it because they can't afford it, I don't think think they need someone to be rubbing their nose in it and sniping at them. If that is not your purpose, I aplogise. :)

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Neatly hidden at the end of the article was a reference to his fathers occupation - Civil Engineering. Can people really be so naive as to think that their salaries (in their 20s) should entitle them to live where their better-qualified and better-paid family members live?

You appear to have an over-inflated sense of what civil engineers earn.

http://www.workthing.com/career-advice/bre...eaking_pay.html

http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/recruit...ce_benefits.htm

Is it possible that buyers are too picky?

A buyer can never be too picky. It is their money. If they pass up a property that is later bought by someone else, so what?

father had bought the house in the 1970's for £3000 and it was now worth "over £500k"

In other words the house has increased in "value" by over 16,000%. Do you really think that's reasonable or anywhere near the inflation in the general price level since that time?

they didnt start there, they got there through 40 years of work.

That's all they have achieved after 40 years of hard work? A house. Excuse me if I remain distinctly underwhelmed.

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I am picky - but only because I remeber clearly the price of houses 5 - 10 years ago and refuse to pay the current outragious prices.

Also, I could happily buy my parent's house (if only they would sell it to me!) - my concern is not with my own purchasing power but with that of the people 5+ years younger than me who, at current levels, will NEVER be able to buy their own home, however hard they work & however hard they save. The whole population has been split into those 30+ who just got their foot on the ladder & those who happened to born a few years later and now don't stand a chance. With 'starter homes' from £150,000 upwards people on the average wage or below don't have a hope.

My worry isnt' for myself, I was born in time (just), it's for those younger than me.

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Any views on this?

I think you have made a very good point. I have been lurking on this site for quite some time now, and have seen many examples of this.

This site is a very valuable resource, and a lot of the regular members contribute very well thought out, useful analysis.

However, there is an element who seem to come on purely to complain that they can't afford what their parents did etc,etc. We all agree that house prices are too high, but we need to bring things into some perspective!

The most extreme example of this I have seen on here was someone who earned £50k a year, and didn't feel that he/she should 'have to live in a terraced or semi', as he/she was earning a good salary. :rolleyes: This person was looking at property in an expensive part of SE England!

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Guest Bart of Darkness
Im beginning to wonder if some of this wishing for HPC is nothing more than the middle-classes acting in the same way as the "chavs" they so despise - they feel they are entitled to everything.

Interesting point (although I'm going to disagree with it)

I feel that there is some sense (especially among some younger people) that they should be able to afford a house without too much work and effort. Conversely, there are a lot of people who have the right approach and are willing to scrimp and save for years in order to buy a home, yet know that even at current prices, they've got no chance.

I can point to examples in my area (South Yorkshire) where prices have tripled in 4 years. Does this make any sense?

I first became interested in the housing bubble before I had my own business (and was finally able to realistically consider buying). At that time I didn't want a HPC to make buying a house easier for me personally, I was just unable to accept that prices should be that high.

I'm prepared to save and work long hours to buy a house, but not prepared to pay prices that just don't make any sense (unless considered as part of a speculative bubble). I calculate that I need to save another 2 years or so to be in a sound position to buy, so I'm in no hurry. But even if I had my finances in place right now, I wouldn't pay prices that I consider to be obscene.

A house is only "worth" what people are prepared to pay for it.

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I am picky - but only because I remeber clearly the price of houses 5 - 10 years ago and refuse to pay the current outragious prices.

Also, I could happily buy my parent's house (if only they would sell it to me!) - my concern is not with my own purchasing power but with that of the people 5+ years younger than me who, at current levels, will NEVER be able to buy their own home, however hard they work & however hard they save.  The whole population has been split into those 30+ who just got their foot on the ladder & those who happened to born a few years later and now don't stand a chance.  With 'starter homes' from £150,000 upwards people on the average wage or below don't have a hope.

My worry isnt' for myself, I was born in time (just), it's for those younger than me.

Exactly - the current House Price Boom has literally driven a wedge through society and divided it into two halves. Even saving £500 a month in the SE in the attempt to build a deposit has become futile.

In 1998 I looked at buying a 3-bed house in Bristol at £50K (now worth £180K). Today this is the deposit needed to buy a 1-bed flat in SW London with a mortgage 6 X average earnings.

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I think you have made a very good point. I have been lurking on this site for quite some time now, and have seen many examples of this.

This site is a very valuable resource, and a lot of the regular members contribute very well thought out, useful analysis.

However, there is an element who seem to come on purely to complain that they can't afford what their parents did etc,etc. We all agree that house prices are too high, but we need to bring things into some perspective!

The most extreme example of this I have seen on here was someone who earned £50k a year, and didn't feel that he/she should 'have to live in a terraced or semi', as he/she was earning a good salary. :rolleyes: This person was looking at property in an expensive part of SE England!

Are some young people too "picky" about property? Sure. But, as an outsider (American) who has been shopping for a home in England for the past couple of years, I have to tell you: British property prices are way out of line. You can drop half a million American dollars in Britain and still not get much for your money. And I'm not talking about size. (I'm not an American who loves huge, three-garage, suburban homes. I'm a devotee of the "Not So Big House" movement in the States.) I'm just talking about value.

Personally, I'm waiting for British prices to get back to what they were around 2001 before I buy. But I have the time (and the money) to wait. If I were a young person in Britain, I'd not only be depressed about the housing situation there, I'd be furious.

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Hi,

There is an element of that maybe. Everyone has to knuckle down at some point but I can't see what the logic og this thread in other ways. Why do you care if they are too picky? Why don't you just say to yourself 'stuff 'em'. What do you suggest, march them down to the building society? That's their purchasing choice, it's up to them how they spend their money, why do you care?

Also, 50,000 is a big salary for a typical FTB. Most of them are nowhere near that position, it is an extreme example of someone. We see figures rolling out every other month by the buiding societies that 95% of peoperties are not possible to be bought by these groups. How are they picky if they do not have access to money - borrowed or otherwise - to purchase. And again, why do you care? Maybe a BTL will rent something to them. So why conecern yourself if they are picky or not?

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That's all they have achieved after 40 years of hard work? A house. Excuse me if I remain distinctly underwhelmed.

Indeed. People bought houses, went to work and their house increased in value 16000%. Not through their hard work. They just did.

Young people today are working longer hours than their parents ever did, with much less job security, and they can't afford a shoe box to live in.

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Is it possible that buyers are too picky?

Seen an article in the Local paper about a cop from the area.

He was bemoaning the fact that he couldnt afford a house in the area where he was brought up.

He went on to say that he father had bought the house in the 1970's for £3000 and it was now worth "over £500k" - prices he could not afford on a constables salary.

Neatly hidden at the end of the article was a reference to his fathers occupation - Civil Engineering. Can people really be so naive as to think that their salaries (in their 20s) should entitle them to live where their better-qualified and better-paid family members live?

I have no illusions regarding the fact that I cannot afford my parents house or to live in the area they live in. But they didnt start there, they got there through 40 years of work.

Im beginning to wonder if some of this wishing for HPC is nothing more than the middle-classes acting in the same way as the "chavs" they so despise - they feel they are entitled to everything.

Any views on this?

I'd say there is absolutely an element of this - as a society we seem to be becoming more and more self-obsessed and more and more people think they should be better off than other people around them as a matter of right (impossible, obviously, but easy to think).

While the generations before us might have been more willing to accept their lot and get on with it, younger people seem sure they should all be millionaires (regardless of any discernable talent).

All that said, this does not remove the fact that the real cost of housing is so much higher today than in the past. So much so that anybody who is willing to accept they have average talent and should expect an average wage and an average property find out that it's tough and they should lower their (already average) expectations as they would have to earn well above the average wage to own an average property today.

It is important that this general observation about the apparently increasing selfishness in our society (which I don't disagree with) does not obscure a very real problem.

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No one has a RIGHT to be a property owner; it has to be worked for. I prefer the expression REASONABLE EXPECTATION, especially if you are well qualified and have spent a long time in formal education.

Let me explain. I was an FTB back in 1975 and I saved for three years to put down the deposit, taking out a mortgage of 2.5 times salary. My 'starter' home? A three bedroomed detached house. Nothing unusual at the time.

Today a well educated 29 year old professional, as I was back then, will be lucky to buy a one bedroom shoebox on 5-6 times earnings. It's nothing to do with earnings, or the diligence which these younger people undoubtedly apply to their careers, but simply the madness of current property valuations which has excluded them from the reasonable expectation of home ownership.

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All the above posts (and many elsewhere on the site) indicate

what these artificially hiked prices are doing.

Not only are buyers stretching themselves financially beyond

what is reasonable, these prices are having dire social effects

on everyone.

Yet another reason that they will, in time, correct.

Financially and socially, these prices cannot continue.

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these prices are having dire social effects on everyone.

Absolutely. It amounts to a wholesale re-distribution of wealth from the young to the old and will have grave social consequences if it persists.

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Guest Bart of Darkness
No one has a RIGHT to be a property owner; it has to be worked for. I prefer the expression REASONABLE EXPECTATION, especially if you are well qualified and have spent a long time in formal education.

Let me explain. I was an FTB back in 1975 and I saved for three years to put down the deposit, taking out a mortgage of 2.5 times salary. My 'starter' home? A three bedroomed detached house. Nothing unusual at the time.

Today a well educated 29 year old professional, as I was back then, will be lucky to buy a one bedroom shoebox on 5-6 times earnings. It's nothing to do with earnings, or the diligence which these younger people undoubtedly apply to their careers, but simply the madness of current property valuations which has excluded them from the reasonable expectation of home ownership.

Agree 100%. Very accurate summing up of the whole current situation.

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"Neatly hidden at the end of the article was a reference to his fathers occupation - Civil Engineering. Can people really be so naive as to think that their salaries (in their 20s) should entitle them to live where their better-qualified and better-paid family members live?"

Well said, people will not seem to accept that they are not entitled to everything right now regardless of their talent or skills. Alot of people in their 20's seem to over estimate themselves on every level. They have not long come though a state education system that even a dullard, with some amount of effort, can come though with something to show for it. It will fail them, but at the same time will not let them fail. Life has been, for the majority, too easy- they are spoilt. Told they are special and valued at every turn. Indeed their existance though childhood has been one of rights with no responsibility. Instant gratification is what they are after, Impatience is observed, high levels of debt result.

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You can put this question the other way around: maybe the buyers were so desperate to "jump on the property ladder before it's too late" that brought this house price madness after all.

I remember an article published on this forum in Autumn, about a young FTB who was dreaming of a nice house, but who during Spring 2004 desperatly bought an as expensive as small shoebox with no windows and a garage door instead of a real door, and now that the real estate market had turned, was painfully realizing his mistake. He said sth like "now I realize how fool I was.. I was dreaming of a nice house, I am going to spend my whole life stucked in this shoebox" Poor guy I fell really sorry for him

The general movements has been: high-flying executives escaping expensive trendy areas to buy in less desirable areas, pushing up prices, pushing out middle-incomes families, who then bought in deprived areas, pushing up prices, then the poorer families cannot buy anywhere anymore. It added up to social pain... :(

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I just want a 2 bedroomed end terrace or semi detached house for around 3 times my salary

Ditto: all I want is a reasonable house for a reasonable price. Ten years ago that was perfectly normal in Britain, today it's impossible.

Alternatively, I could move abroad, buy a four-bedroom detached house with my girlfriend for cash, and never have to worry about mortgage interest or rent again (meaning, amongst other things, that only one of us would have to work).

Tricky decision.

Edited by MarkG

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You can put this question the other way around: maybe the buyers were so desperate to "jump on the property ladder before it's too late" that brought this house price madness after all.

I remember an article published on this forum in Autumn, about a young FTB who was dreaming of a nice house, but who during Spring 2004 desperatly bought an as expensive as small shoebox with no windows and a garage door instead of a real door,  and now that the real estate market had turned, was painfully realizing his mistake. He said sth like "now I realize how fool I was.. I was dreaming of a nice house, I am going to spend my whole life stucked in this shoebox" Poor guy I fell really sorry for him

The general movements has been: high-flying executives escaping expensive trendy areas to buy in less desirable areas, pushing up prices, pushing out middle-incomes families, who then bought in deprived areas, pushing up prices, then the poorer families cannot buy anywhere anymore. It added up to social pain... :(

That was the aptly-named "Adrian Manic", as I recall, from a BBC Program:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4314073.stm

Edited by paying_some_b*stards_mortgage

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Is it possible that buyers are too picky?

............

Im beginning to wonder if some of this wishing for HPC is nothing more than the middle-classes acting in the same way as the "chavs" they so despise - they feel they are entitled to everything.

Any views on this?

Hmmm… so, if a person is earning an average income (a GOOD deal higher than the UK median) of say £28K it means they can afford to buy something of around £100K – this means not much more than a 1-bed flat in a grotty part of town in most parts of the SE, or maybe a 2-bed terrace in a small rural town several hours’ drive away where there is not much work available, what will someone on 16K be able to afford? Are they being picky when they say they can’t afford to buy?

Wake up and smell the coffee!

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Absolutely. It amounts to a wholesale re-distribution of wealth from the young to the old and will have grave social consequences if it persists.

Excuse me?Redistribution of wealth from the young to the old?!!Since when have the young ever held the majority of the wealth since house-buying became an essential past-time in the UK?Looking back, I can't remember my parents having a great deal of wealth when I was a child over 30 odd years ago.They scrimped and saved to pay their mortage for their portion of the countries 'wealth.'Today, younger peoples' 'wealth' actually composes credit in most cases.

I agree with some of the other people posting here - that many people seem to be expecting their parents' current standard of living NOW, regardless of all the available evidence staring them in the face.This is the nature of the cultural shift in banking which has taken place in the last two decades, which has thrown credit at all and sundry without a care in the world.The public went from BEGGING the bank manager for extra cash to being freely offered cash via telephone calls, e-mails, junk mail, your 'friendly' bank....

This has had the effect of making it acceptable to borrow thousands and thousands funding 'lifestyles' that many of our parents could only dream of.The difference is they'd never have borrowed to this degree (i.e. at ANY COST) to achieve ... WHAT?? Debt.This is why the housing market has gone so bananas.The younger end of the market, tenderised by this (il)logic, has unwittingly fuelled the boom itself, by viewing the outrageous house prices as acceptable.As the slave masters (banks) start to call in their dues, we realise maybe we're not quite so 'wealthy' after all.

We can stop this if we cease to be so damn stupid and refuse to say (altogether now, sheep-like 'baaaaa!') : ''hey, it's OK and right for me to offer 180,000 for this tiny 2 bedroom terrace!!!''

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I just want a 2 bedroomed end terrace or semi detached house for around 3 times my salary - whats picky about that?

This is exactly my point Oz - there is nothing picky about what you want.

But you must realise if your salary is £10k then its not going to happen.

If your salary is £30k and you want to live in, say, Surrey its not going to happen.

If however, you are prepared to move to East London or Northamptonshire I'm sure your money will go a lot further.

My point again - you cannot get what you want, where you want, when you want it - thats being unreasonable. Look at other options.

There are a raft of houses for sale in London 2 and 3 beds from 150k upwards.

People are just being picky - they want Hammersmith and they want it now and they want it within their budget.

There are literally thousands of houses available in London, for example, below £200k.

People having tantrums at me or corrrecting me about what a Civil Engineer might earn is all bluff and bluster. The facts hold true, not the hype.

I am most definately NOT a bull - but I am a pragmatist.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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