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how?

People tried to fill the vacuum of their self by filling it with tat and by avoiding individuation simply by following the latest trend.

Theres a great comment about it in some of Dmitry Orlovs writings, about how those caught up in whatever system is failing have the most invested in it, and when that system ends then they have to sort out their personal issues (which the system (housing boom) in our case was covering up) while also broke, jobless, homeless etc. Suicide rates for middle aged men spiked when communism fell apart, a tragedy for those concerned and which also robbed the ex soviet society of some of it's most skilled people at a time when they were needed most.

Those who are around boomer age, are nuts deep into BTL or high up in the statist hierarchy/relying on it's pension money going forward are both going to be out on their **** and have to deal with whatever personal stuff caused them to seek unearned income from others in the first place. It really is a powderkeg.

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It really is a powderkeg.

I think you are right, after a year of nothing productive I'm actually starting to wake up each morning rather angry, and the thing is I've not had it that bad, as I've managed to get things to keep me ticking over JUST. Others who are having it worse no doubt probably feel angrier.

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I think you are right, after a year of nothing productive I'm actually starting to wake up each morning rather angry, and the thing is I've not had it that bad, as I've managed to get things to keep me ticking over JUST. Others who are having it worse no doubt probably feel angrier.

get one of these....http://www.realdoll.com/

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I think you are right, after a year of nothing productive I'm actually starting to wake up each morning rather angry, and the thing is I've not had it that bad, as I've managed to get things to keep me ticking over JUST. Others who are having it worse no doubt probably feel angrier.

There are people out there who have lost their entire futures and who still don't know it. They are STILL being lied to, even now. All efforts have been exerted so far to keep the delusion going, to not let reality intrude on the imagined future of landlordism, fat public sector pensions, welfare from heaven etc etc of course this just makes it worse and worse the longer it goes on.

Sadly, we are already way past the point where someone (anyone?) with a bit of backbone could tell the truth about the current situstion to the public without being blamed for the subsequent fallout. So everyone concerned is going to fnd out what's what at their own pace and it's going to be a disaster.

And for what?

To avoid a bit of personal growth and the start of boomers downsizing ten or twelve years ago. For electoral success. To shoot some brown people in a far off land and nick their oil. All of it is very, very sad.

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Ahem http://www.vaga.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=667:are-unpaid-internships-illegal&catid=164:employment-a-skills&Itemid=494

'Unpaid Internships Deemed Illegal .....

As unemployment figures for16 - 24 year olds rise to one-in-five an Employment Tribunal has ruled that workers employed on an expenses-only basis are entitled to payment at least in line with the national minimum wage, in addition to payment for the holiday they accrue. The decision emphasises that creative industry employers are not excluded from obligations under the national minimum wage regulations.

HMRC, are reported very shortly to be issuing guidelines recognising that unpaid internships are illegal and qualify for the minimum wage. '

I think unpaid internships are now illegal in the UK (though not entirely sure as everything was a bit up in the air last time I looked, after the tribunal ruling mentioned above) - they have been in the US for quite a while - I suggest she contacts HMRC, then shops her ex-employer - if they have indeed broken the law.

I've been fighting against unpaid internships in my sector for quite a while.

AIUI the only times that an adult intership can be unpaid is if:

a) the employer is a charity

B) the work is a necessary part of an education/training course. This would apply to e.g. the two weeks behind the counter in the chemists that my friend's daughter needs to do for her pharmacy degree. It does not apply to 6 and 12 months placements in "sandwich" courses.

Just because someone is a new graduate (or even an undergraduate on holiday) with no work experience, and is working to gain that experience, there is no legal reason not to pay them (and even if they agree to work for nothing, the employer would be in breach of the law by allowing it).

tim

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AIUI the only times that an adult intership can be unpaid is if:

a) the employer is a charity

B) the work is a necessary part of an education/training course. This would apply to e.g. the two weeks behind the counter in the chemists that my friend's daughter needs to do for her pharmacy degree. It does not apply to 6 and 12 months placements in "sandwich" courses.

Just because someone is a new graduate (or even an undergraduate on holiday) with no work experience, and is working to gain that experience, there is no legal reason not to pay them (and even if they agree to work for nothing, the employer would be in breach of the law by allowing it).

tim

How will this law be enforced if the parties to it are happy to agree to the arrangement?

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How will this law be enforced if the parties to it are happy to agree to the arrangement?

Same as any other law, an unhappy party to the contract say a co-worker who is unhappy with the arrangement tells the authorities. In Chinatown the UK resident waiters and staff were felt incredibly threatenened by Fuhjian immigrant workers who would work for less (often nothing but accomodation and meals). It is widely suspected that it was the residents who had been here since the 1960s and their children told the authorities of such business practices.

Raids occured several times.

This happened to me when I did something free for somebody (I used to show people how to do simple repairs on bikes of my biker wing). One of the mechanics who did this as work felt massively threatened by this and started slating me on internet forums and making fake accounts of me doing shoddy work. Fortunately the people I really helped out came to my defence.

There is a old Chinese story about it called Moch Yeun Chou, its told in many forms but effectively a new wine merchant with a better product comes into town. The old wine shop owner feels incredibly threatened and goes as far as poisoning the wine and going to the judge who has the new wine merchant executed.

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What sort of idiot graduate is going to work for free? I understand it can be good to show you've got experience but as indicated, all we need is for people to say no before this becomes the norm... talk about slavery!

In answer to your first question, one who is out of work, has little or no experience and would rather get experience whilst being poor, get experience, be known and possibly liked by an employer in their field, would you rather sit on your **** saying but I'm worth so much more than this. For the employer it shows who has real drive, costs them nothing, are they cashing in, that would be a yes then, but this is the new reality, far more people than places, I know a 2.1 grad in law 2008 who's progressed to being a part-time barmaid, back with parents, despirate for unpaid legal experience.

In response to your last point some will say no, but far more will say yes, mindsets are changing quickly I left school in 1980, spent years in shiit jobs trying hard to get anyware, I feel so sorry for youngsters today, the disslocation between their expectations and reality is going to be utterly bewildering, I think it will fall hardest on the meedya studies- soft degree graduates, with worthless degrees and debts of £30,000, by the time they've paid off their debts they will be in their 30s, still living with mum and dad and wondering how the hell with a degree they ended up at Tesco's

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A relative has just been told her short term employment contract will not be renewed. She is being replaced by a new graduate who is working for free. They are perfectly happy with her work, but they would prefer to pay someone nothing to do the job, apparently. It's a small company, non-professional employment, not exactly a City accountancy firm.

Where will the madness end.

Once was a time when it customary to pay for apprenticeship training . Can't imagine any other reason one would work for 'free'.

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In answer to your first question, one who is out of work, has little or no experience and would rather get experience whilst being poor, get experience, be known and possibly liked by an employer in their field, would you rather sit on your **** saying but I'm worth so much more than this. For the employer it shows who has real drive, costs them nothing, are they cashing in, that would be a yes then, but this is the new reality, far more people than places, I know a 2.1 grad in law 2008 who's progressed to being a part-time barmaid, back with parents, despirate for unpaid legal experience.

In response to your last point some will say no, but far more will say yes, mindsets are changing quickly I left school in 1980, spent years in shiit jobs trying hard to get anyware, I feel so sorry for youngsters today, the disslocation between their expectations and reality is going to be utterly bewildering, I think it will fall hardest on the meedya studies- soft degree graduates, with worthless degrees and debts of £30,000, by the time they've paid off their debts they will be in their 30s, still living with mum and dad and wondering how the hell with a degree they ended up at Tesco's

I'm not an inexperienced chump with a soft degree, so perhaps I'm not the best placed to comment on the situation. Law is not a sensible choice at the moment, in my honest opinion - accountancy makes more sense. As for the last line - they have their parents' support and a job at Tesco, if we're going by that metric then currently that person would be classed as more successful than me.

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In answer to your first question, one who is out of work, has little or no experience and would rather get experience whilst being poor, get experience, be known and possibly liked by an employer in their field, would you rather sit on your **** saying but I'm worth so much more than this. For the employer it shows who has real drive, costs them nothing, are they cashing in, that would be a yes then, but this is the new reality, far more people than places, I know a 2.1 grad in law 2008 who's progressed to being a part-time barmaid, back with parents, despirate for unpaid legal experience.

In response to your last point some will say no, but far more will say yes, mindsets are changing quickly I left school in 1980, spent years in shiit jobs trying hard to get anyware, I feel so sorry for youngsters today, the disslocation between their expectations and reality is going to be utterly bewildering, I think it will fall hardest on the meedya studies- soft degree graduates, with worthless degrees and debts of £30,000, by the time they've paid off their debts they will be in their 30s, still living with mum and dad and wondering how the hell with a degree they ended up at Tesco's

Why would you want to get on in a field where they don't pay you anything?

Madness.

You'd be better off picking up tins and weighing them in for scrap.

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A relative has just been told her short term employment contract will not be renewed. She is being replaced by a new graduate who is working for free. They are perfectly happy with her work, but they would prefer to pay someone nothing to do the job, apparently. It's a small company, non-professional employment, not exactly a City accountancy firm.

Where will the madness end.

When the average wage is relatively 25% less than today.

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There are people out there who have lost their entire futures and who still don't know it. They are STILL being lied to, even now. All efforts have been exerted so far to keep the delusion going, to not let reality intrude on the imagined future of landlordism, fat public sector pensions, welfare from heaven etc etc of course this just makes it worse and worse the longer it goes on.

EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY.

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What sort of idiot graduate is going to work for free? I understand it can be good to show you've got experience but as indicated, all we need is for people to say no before this becomes the norm... talk about slavery!

Even before the recession, this was commonplace in some industries for decades - basically those ones that many young graduates want to get into and which are considered "cool".

Anything to do with movies, TV, the music biz, PR, anything even vaguely showbiz, for a start.

People would work as a "runner" for some TV or film company - just being a dogsbody basically, hoping that they would get a "proper job" out of it after a few months.

And then also big name city firms.

It has obviously got worse in recent years due to recession and the increasing numbers of graduates chasing jobs, but it isn't a new phenomenon.

Which explains why these industries are dominated by people called Sophie, Annabel, Tarquin, Oliver, David Cameron, etc - because their parents could afford to sub them for 6 months, and maybe provide them somewhere free to live while they aren't being paid.

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Even before the recession, this was commonplace in some industries for decades - basically those ones that many young graduates want to get into and which are considered "cool".

Anything to do with movies, TV, the music biz, PR, anything even vaguely showbiz, for a start.

People would work as a "runner" for some TV or film company - just being a dogsbody basically, hoping that they would get a "proper job" out of it after a few months.

And then also big name city firms.

It has obviously got worse in recent years due to recession and the increasing numbers of graduates chasing jobs, but it isn't a new phenomenon.

Which explains why these industries are dominated by people called Sophie, Annabel, Tarquin, Oliver, David Cameron, etc - because their parents could afford to sub them for 6 months, and maybe provide them somewhere free to live while they aren't being paid.

Very true – go to any art gallery and it is staffed by a load of glamorous young Sophies and Charlottes.

In the current edition of The List (that’s the Glasgow and Edinburgh equivalent of Time Out) is an advert for a ‘Voluntary Projects Assistant’ a the Collective Gallery in Edinburgh. Duties include invigilation, exhibition installation, project work and day-to-day admin, the post is roughly 30 hours per week for 6 months, there is a proper application pack, a deadline and interviews, and yet how much does the job pay? ‘Travel expenses and training budget’ only, i.e. zero! Yet the art world is considered glamorous, so no doubt they won’t be short of applicants.

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I'm not an inexperienced chump with a soft degree, so perhaps I'm not the best placed to comment on the situation. Law is not a sensible choice at the moment, in my honest opinion - accountancy makes more sense. As for the last line - they have their parents' support and a job at Tesco, if we're going by that metric then currently that person would be classed as more successful than me.

The sad bit is ,the level of ability for a lawyer and that of an accountant are in my opinion quite wide, and with universities producing about 10 times more law grads than there are actually positions for means by definition 90% are wasting their times, if she had done accountancy, then she'd probably be OK, but a 2.1 from a former poly against a first from an old uni like bit of a no brainer I'm afraid.

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Sure, not a free one though. Free means "free from coercion" which slaves very obviously aren't.

You can't seem to grasp that any and all markets are based on coercion in the form of needs. Why on earth would I negotiate for anything I had no need for? I wouldn't.

So, you have something I need- I am now under pressure to obtain that which I need- that pressure is coercive, it is driving my behaviour and to that extent I am not acting with complete freedom.

OK, if I am lucky I also have something you need- say my labour, for example. That's your model, as far as it goes.

But the unconscious premise of your model is that my needs and your needs are in balance- but what if they are not?

What if my need to work to earn money, is far more urgent than your need to employ me?

At this point we must introduce the notion of Power- which can be defined as the ability to coerce others to do what we want.

Because you have less need for my labour, than I have for a job, you can beat me down on price for my labour- this is how markets work. But make no mistake, this process is coercive- you are using the power your position gives you to gain advantage.

The idea of a market made up of totally self sufficient individuals who are free to reject any offer- which means all offers if needs be- is self contradictory- why would a completely satisfied individual ever require a market? They have no needs.

Even if you abolished all the statist apparatus of coercion and replaced it with a market, that market would spawn it's own apparatus of coercion in the form of unbalanced needs- those who controlled vital resources would leverage their advantage to coerce others to do their bidding.

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The sad bit is ,the level of ability for a lawyer and that of an accountant are in my opinion quite wide, and with universities producing about 10 times more law grads than there are actually positions for means by definition 90% are wasting their times, if she had done accountancy, then she'd probably be OK, but a 2.1 from a former poly against a first from an old uni like bit of a no brainer I'm afraid.

To be fair my university isn't exactly Russell Group. But that's besides the point, I would have taken this course elsewhere if it were offered by another institution. Practical > Theoretical in my opinion, then again some folk think universities should be purely research based and that we should be paying £20,000 per annum fees.

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You can't seem to grasp that any and all markets are based on coercion in the form of needs. Why on earth would I negotiate for anything I had no need for? I wouldn't.

You don't seem to understand that as that's the base state of all of mankind, then it's pointless wishing it otherwise.

So, you have something I need- I am now under pressure to obtain that which I need- that pressure is coercive, it is driving my behaviour and to that extent I am not acting with complete freedom.

That's not coercion. Coercion is additional to this process - it's the use of violence over and above your need to eat to survive.

OK, if I am lucky I also have something you need- say my labour, for example. That's your model, as far as it goes.

But the unconscious premise of your model is that my needs and your needs are in balance- but what if they are not?

Then we don't have anything to do with each other.

What if my need to work to earn money, is far more urgent than your need to employ me?

What if it is?

At this point we must introduce the notion of Power- which can be defined as the ability to coerce others to do what we want.

Sorry - this isn't coercion. In this instance I have the power to provide you with a benefit you don't already have. I can offer you more than you can get for yourself. My "power" is the power to not help you.

Because you have less need for my labour, than I have for a job, you can beat me down on price for my labour- this is how markets work. But make no mistake, this process is coercive- you are using the power your position gives you to gain advantage.

It's not coercion. By default you and I do not interact. To change that state of affairs requires effort. If I don't make that effort, what have I done to you?

Nothing. You are basically saying that by doing nothing I am attacking you.

Like...erm..what?

The idea of a market made up of totally self sufficient individuals who are free to reject any offer- which means all offers if needs be- is self contradictory- why would a completely satisfied individual ever require a market? They have no needs.

No, a free market is where you don't get beaten or caged IF you refuse. You are here (comically enough) outlining why it works - everyone has wants and needs and therefore there is no need to add anything else, to star handing out beatings and cagings.

Even if you abolished all the statist apparatus of coercion and replaced it with a market, that market would spawn it's own apparatus of coercion in the form of unbalanced needs- those who controlled vital resources would leverage their advantage to coerce others to do their bidding.

It isn't coercion, it's help and the refusal to help.

The fact that you can't do better than menial work means that whoever employs you really is doing you a favour by employing you. By default you have nothing and he is offering you stuff you can't get on your own.

The only way this is a bad thing is if

1) He owes you something somehow just because you are breathing

2) You have been stopped from helping yourself in some way by him before he makes the offer.

Point 2 is where you will have the most traction, if you look at it closely.

Edited by Injin
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Which explains why these industries are dominated by people called Sophie, Annabel, Tarquin, Oliver, David Cameron, etc - because their parents could afford to sub them for 6 months, and maybe provide them somewhere free to live while they aren't being paid.

Yeah, I knew several people who went on unpaid internships in movies/TV: they all eventually dropped out when their parents were no longer willing to continue funding their dreams and told them to get a real job. I went the alternate route of having a decent day job and working on movies in my spare time, but that meant I only ever got to work on low-budget shoots where I was in much higher profile positions on the crew but would never be able to make a living from the work.

That said, I can't really see this helping anyone, since many of those jobs could just be eliminated these days: for example, you don't need to send someone running across London to another office if you can send your work over the Internet instead.

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