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Unbelievable Blair


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I'm confused, seems to be pure hatred here rather than response to logic.

Well, I haven't listened to him today, but I can honestly say I hate him for everything he has done to this country. He is a religious nutter, just as bad as the extremists in Iran. The real danger comes when you have religious nutters on opposing sides, both of whom think they have God behind them.

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I can't help thinking that if we weren't getting our arses kicked in Iraq/ Afghanistan there would be no enquiry.

If we had sorted it out in weeks with minimum casualties (our side of course) there would be cheers and back slapping.

That shows the hypocrisy of our nation, these people talking about an illegal war (much prefer legal wars they are more friendly , i'm sure the Taliban would agree) and looking for a scapegoat - would they be doing the same if it had not turned into such a mess?

You're probably right there probably wouldn't have been an inquiry.

But I'm not so sure of the hypocrisy.

There are a few people trying to present the past in a manner that supports them, in trying to present that entire country was behind the decision to attack, it wasn't, it was decidedly split.

Cabinet ministers resigned over it, legal advisers quit, back benchers were conspicuous in their absence of support, 100'000's marched against it.

The decision was driven by a handful of Man and Woman. Whether what they did was legal or not, should be questioned.

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable

...with some american guy wielding a baseball bat, while talking about matters financial and fiscal

And a very fat, insatiable, priapic Arab.

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This is why charismatic religious nuts are the most dangerous. I'm so right that whatever I do is justified.

Death to all infidels and great is Allah!

Nutters are nothing new--our own King was one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

Due to war-time censorship and the desire to keep up the morale of the nation, the full extent of the unfolding "disaster" around Dunkirk was not publicized. However, the grave plight of the troops led King George VI to call for an unprecedented week of prayer. Throughout the country, people prayed on 26 May for a miraculous delivery.[6] The Archbishop of Canterbury led prayers "for our soldiers in dire peril in France." Similar prayers were offered in synagogues and churches throughout Britain that day, confirming the public suspicion of the desperate plight of the troops.[7]

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I really can't believe that Tony Blair is being allowed to use the enquiry to tell us all that Iran needs sorting out. This war criminal should be on trial.

I am utterly flabbergasted.

Here's a good book that analyses individuals who are able to smile after causing death of 10,000s of innocent people:

Political Ponerology: A Science on the Nature of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes

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I would rank Blair in the bottom 5 of our PMs. Brown takes pride of place as the worst. Churchill was in power during the largest period of killing.

That said, the ME is, was, and will be an accident waiting to happen. If Saddam had continued with his plans to subjugate his neighbours the death toll would have been quite possibly much higher. Wars in that region have always been with us and millions have died over the years. It may be naive to think but for Anthony and George the killing would have gone away. The power has simply shifted from a fascist despot to a crazed Jihadist. Take your pick.

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I would rank Blair in the bottom 5 of our PMs. Brown takes pride of place as the worst. Churchill was in power during the largest period of killing.
. Would I put Blair in the bottom 5 PMs?

Here's my top 3, in descending order or worstness:

1) Gordon Brown

2) Margaret Thatcher

3) James Callaghan

Who else is left to choose from over the period I was conscious of politics? Harold Wilson, Ted Heath, John Major and Tony Blair.

Of those four, I think Harold Wilson and Ted Heath were the best PMs, so, yes, Blair is in my top 5 - and sadly, so is John Major, who I liked.

:

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Nutters are nothing new--our own King was one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

Due to war-time censorship and the desire to keep up the morale of the nation, the full extent of the unfolding "disaster" around Dunkirk was not publicized. However, the grave plight of the troops led King George VI to call for an unprecedented week of prayer. Throughout the country, people prayed on 26 May for a miraculous delivery.[6] The Archbishop of Canterbury led prayers "for our soldiers in dire peril in France." Similar prayers were offered in synagogues and churches throughout Britain that day, confirming the public suspicion of the desperate plight of the troops.[7]

Not quite the same thing. That sounds more like a reaction (albeit an irrational one) to a real situation. It wasn't driving a fanatical agenda (though the enemy at the time was pursuing one).

The Spanish Inquisition was driven by True Believer religious nuts, and left a legacy of fear and hatred of catholics that's still felt in Northern Ireland. The Holocaust was driven by True Believers in a pseudo-religious idea of racial purity (including the catholic church, though they were in a back seat), and has left a poisonous legacy.

Blair's major legacy will not be Iraq: that'll be history in a generation (just as Suez is today). It'll be the kindling of religious zealotry and the reversal of the Enlightenment. What he's done with our schools will give us self-perpetuating generations of "us and them", where previously we would live-and-let-live.

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I would rank Blair in the bottom 5 of our PMs. Brown takes pride of place as the worst. Churchill was in power during the largest period of killing.

That said, the ME is, was, and will be an accident waiting to happen. If Saddam had continued with his plans to subjugate his neighbours the death toll would have been quite possibly much higher. Wars in that region have always been with us and millions have died over the years. It may be naive to think but for Anthony and George the killing would have gone away. The power has simply shifted from a fascist despot to a crazed Jihadist. Take your pick.

Which plans did Saddam have to subjugate his neighbours? Those proposed by the Americans, to re-conquer Iran, or the border strife with Kuwait?

Iraq invaded Kuwait, having first checked with the Americans that it would be OK, because the Iraqis believed Kuwait was stealing Iraq's oil by horizontal drilling under the border. It was reported in the San Francisco Chronicle that

"As the world watched the military build up at the Kuwaiti border, Saddam called a meeting with then US ambassador April Gillespie, who told Saddam: "We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait." She went on to say: "James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction."

This was an Anglo-American war for resources, and may have not had a little to do with Saddam switching from selling his oil in US dollars to Euros shortly before. Blair uses his religion as a fig leaf to cover his avarice and megalomania.

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Here's my top 3, in descending order or worstness:

1) Gordon Brown

2) Margaret Thatcher

3) James Callaghan

Who else is left to choose from over the period I was conscious of politics? Harold Wilson, Ted Heath, John Major and Tony Blair.

Of those four, I think Harold Wilson and Ted Heath were the best PMs, so, yes, Blair is in my top 5 - and sadly, so is John Major, who I liked.

Point

missed.

Does your knowledge of British politics only extend to your first vote? Chamberlain? Disraeli? That idiot Asquith?

Pathetic.

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Never forget though. WE ELECTED HIM. He is a reflection of the British People at a point in time.

How many people in the UK actually voted labour? Whilst I accept that question could be seen as a petulant thing to say, I actaully believe that the majority of British people at that point in time were at best, apathetic, at worst lazy and that Labour (like any other political party) had nowhere near the support of the majority of the British people. Either way, I dont belive Tony Blair was a reflection of the majority of British people. He acted like a President with scant regard for elected representatives of the people or even direct action. He lied to take our armed forces to war and is responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths.

I am surprised I am writing this as I actually believe the World is a better place without Hussein but I utterly object to the fact that we were lied to, to justify going to war. If Blair would have had the balls and told the truth that "we had been patrolling the Iraqi no fly zone for 10 years and we need a resolution to the problem and actually that Saddam guy is a w*nker and the World would be a better place without him", I wouldnt have any where near as much of a problem with the whole debacle. But he epotomises Labour - spin spin spin and jsut do what the f*ck they want with no respect for the electorate or their money.

F*ck them. F*CK THEM! I cant wait for these tw*ts to get kicked out of Government.

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go on then, enlighten us

I'll try but anything but unconditioonal condemnation of Blair seems unacceptable on this thread.

The reasons for hating Blair seem to be:

1. People who voted for Blair didn't expect him to go to war alongside the Americans

2. A lot of people seem to believe that the only 'legal' wars are those backed by the UN.

3. There is a lot of anger about his apparent lack of regret for the death of servicement & Iraqi civilians

4. Britain could have stayed out of it.

5. There has to be a possibility that people with an Anti-war agenda or relatives of the dead & injured are pursuing their agendas on this and many other forums.

Its clear that taking a detached, clinical view of this issue is tremendously provocative to many people. Maybe its too soon.

Another point - the Internet has given ordinary people a platform where they could be safely ignored in previous conflicts - that has to be good.

I thought Blair sounded quite composed on the Radio, but TV shows that he was quite scared and looked very tired.

I do think its a bit much to complain about Labour not representing the people - the first past the post system wasn't Blair's idea. That criticism could be laid at the door of any PM whenever they do something unpopular.

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But he epotomises Labour - spin spin spin and jsut do what the f*ck they want with no respect for the electorate or their money.

F*ck them. F*CK THEM! I cant wait for these tw*ts to get kicked out of Government.

Didn't people say this kind of thing about the Tories in 1997?

Depressing isn't it.

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I really can't believe that Tony Blair is being allowed to use the enquiry to tell us all that Iran needs sorting out. This war criminal should be on trial.

I am utterly flabbergasted.

The best defence is offence. No point in being penitent, just suggest you haven't gone far enough.

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I'll try but anything but unconditioonal condemnation of Blair seems unacceptable on this thread.

The reasons for hating Blair seem to be:

1. People who voted for Blair didn't expect him to go to war alongside the Americans

2. A lot of people seem to believe that the only 'legal' wars are those backed by the UN.

3. There is a lot of anger about his apparent lack of regret for the death of servicement & Iraqi civilians

4. Britain could have stayed out of it.

5. There has to be a possibility that people with an Anti-war agenda or relatives of the dead & injured are pursuing their agendas on this and many other forums.

Its clear that taking a detached, clinical view of this issue is tremendously provocative to many people. Maybe its too soon.

Another point - the Internet has given ordinary people a platform where they could be safely ignored in previous conflicts - that has to be good.

I thought Blair sounded quite composed on the Radio, but TV shows that he was quite scared and looked very tired.

I do think its a bit much to complain about Labour not representing the people - the first past the post system wasn't Blair's idea. That criticism could be laid at the door of any PM whenever they do something unpopular.

So whats your definition of a legal pre-emtive war?

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I do think its a bit much to complain about Labour not representing the people - the first past the post system wasn't Blair's idea. That criticism could be laid at the door of any PM whenever they do something unpopular.

According to you, Mr Blair is not responsible for the first past the post electoral system, therefore he is not responsible for being elected, therefore he is not responsible for any of the decisions he makes in office. How long have you been a mental acrobat?

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So whats your definition of a legal pre-emtive war?

War and legality? Pah! Sounds like arguing angels on pinheads.

But the blatent lies he told, and the way they booted out the international community's impartial judge (Hans Blix) when he reported the evidence he found instead of what he was told, are matters of record. As is the way he ignored the huge-scale protests by the British people.

Notice how many things I didn't mention there?

Besides, the Iraq war is not his most serious crime. Not by a long way.

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Guest GravyTrain

Didn't people say this kind of thing about the Tories in 1997?

Depressing isn't it.

I don't know about anyone else but I didn't feel in 1997 as though there was no hope for the future- priced out of housing ,sharing a country with a large percentage of idiots/chavs/immigrants (who Im supposed to embrace for fear of being labelled racist), now facing the prospects of sharing the pain of paying back the money I never f***ing borrowed in the first place. (ie the boom).

Living in a country where saving is frowned upon and loading yourself with debt is actively encouraged. The problem is, I don't want to face negative equity/repossesion/financial ruin. Labour have created a situation where you face a highly dangerous situation but they've sealed all the exits off.

Saving is pointless, renting is highly annoying (I've moved 5 times in 4 yrs). I can feel my arms being twisted up my back to buy.....even though I know it's all going to end in tears.

I hate them more than anything. If they were buried beneath the haitian rubble, I wouldn't feel sorry for them.

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According to you, Mr Blair is not responsible for the first past the post electoral system, therefore he is not responsible for being elected, therefore he is not responsible for any of the decisions he makes in office. How long have you been a mental acrobat?

Do you seriously think that identifying flaws in criticisms of Blair makes someone an apologist for him?

Jeez, is the no room for objective debate on this thread?

Look at it another way - if we only raged about Nazi atrocities rather than cooly analysing the root causes & psychology involved - we run the risk of such a thing happening again.

Oh never mind, I give up.

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I'm no fan of Blair, or any politician for that matter, but I don't buy all this evil genius claptrap.

Listening to all of it on 5 live.

Yes, he is evading some questions, but he sounds to me like someone who believed he was doing what he had to, or at least what served the interests of the UK as well as his own.

Also if you just huff & puff, you won't hear the considerable detail he is giving on what went on at the time.

How about giving your views when he has finished?

I s'pose at the end of the day - he thought bombing raids that would maim, kill & orphan children was acceptable in the circumstances as he saw them.

People who don't agree will never forgive him.

Never forget though. WE ELECTED HIM. He is a reflection of the British People at a point in time.

I believe that should a home intruder tie up my family and threaten them at knifepoint, I should I manage to get free would kill or seriously maim that person.

However what I believe to be right, is different from the law.

Blair as Prime Minister does not have the right to "Believe" in anything other than British and International Law, however "Right" he thinks he is.

From the outset he was a war criminal, and that would stand even if Saddam did have WMD's as it is not Blairs right as Prime Minister to go to war and break the law as a result of doing so.

It may in my mind be right for me to drive my car like a lunatic killing people on the way, whilst drunk, in an effort to get my seriously ill child to hospital. And in my mind, that decision will always be right......................however in law, and rightly so, I must be punished.

Blair is a War Criminal, as indeed is Brown and the entire Labour Cabinet that were in on this lie. Parliament was lied to, the Iraqi peopl were lied to..............its a War Crime.

The sooner we can get all of those involved (Many more than just Blair) into Iraq to face Justice in an Iraqi court, the sooner we can have closure on this subject and hand justice to the 5 million orphans that exist in Iraq today directly as a consequence of Blairs "I thought it was the right thing to do"

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I would rank Blair in the bottom 5 of our PMs. Brown takes pride of place as the worst. Churchill was in power during the largest period of killing.

That said, the ME is, was, and will be an accident waiting to happen. If Saddam had continued with his plans to subjugate his neighbours the death toll would have been quite possibly much higher.

it goes far beyond that,and I think we may well see somebody in the not too distant future who looks and acts like a bigger warmonger than blair.

here is the problem:

we have the likes of yasser arafat openly stating "their greatest weapon is the womb"...so outbreeding the natives is one method of attack.

our politicians giving them a helping hand by adopting policies that are blatantly anti-marriage and materialistic is another,reducing our own birth rates(and that's our fault for getting sucked in)

at some crunch point,we will be getting out-voted in our "democracy",and then the indigenous folks will wake up and demand action...giving ample breeding ground for another hitler.His gripe was about jewish influence,ours(and this also applies to places like france) will be against a burgeoning muslim influence.You can probably apply the same logic to some african immigrants because they have a habit of breeding like rabbits too.

If we couple this up with some of the environmental factors that will be causing problems(like water shortages in the tropical bits),then we will have a real powder-keg on our hands .

someone is going to come along with a "solution".Some may be easier to handle than others.

soft-kill sterilisation with GM crops in africa,or a few additives in the water supply of arabia to slow the growth rate is far preferable to blowing the crap out of them with nukes...

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