Battle For Deposit.

[Chugger]

To be clear, (and whilst the militant view is very tempting) you have nothing to fear from making a one off offer WITHOUT PREDJUDICE. They cannot use this is as any sort of admission of guilt to anything, even if you did state its for 6 glasses. It is a very generous offer to resolve the situation without further action being required, and in the spirit of reconciliation. Thats all. Both TDS and small claims would view such an effort on your part as very favourably. They will not and CANNOT, start from the point that youve 'accepted' £20 worth of damage. You havent. Youve merely made a gesture to resolve this in advance, and to save loads of inconvenience for everyone involved.

I personally would go that route, as indeed, you may get your money in 7 days, and thats all you want isnt it? Dont let those who are unclear as to what Without Predjudice is, sway you. If its refused and you then wished to defend the claim for 6 glasses in the small claims/TDS, you are still free to do so. You made a WP offer in the spirit of early resolution only.

That's very helpful.

There are a few other things that concern me, for example a nail in the wall, not mentioned in the check in inventory but mentioned in the check out inventory, and the LL saying the kitchen sink is blocked (obviously trying to insinuate that I didn't take care of the property) even though it wasn't like that when we left, and the check out report didn't mention it.

The thing that's annoying me is that if anything this landlord owes us hundreds of pounds due to promises he broke which ended up costing us and the place being inhabitable during the cold snap. If I start to buckle at a couple of things, which I admit I'll probably have to, are they not going to jump on absolutely every last piece of ******** he's come up with and my attempts at defense fall apart? In all honesty I'm being right royally screwed here and the thought of dishing over any more money sickens me and has my gf in tears.

[Haventaclue]

That's very helpful.

There are a few other things that concern me, for example a nail in the wall, not mentioned in the check in inventory but mentioned in the check out inventory, and the LL saying the kitchen sink is blocked (obviously trying to insinuate that I didn't take care of the property) even though it wasn't like that when we left, and the check out report didn't mention it.

The thing that's annoying me is that if anything this landlord owes us hundreds of pounds due to promises he broke which ended up costing us and the place being inhabitable during the cold snap. If I start to buckle at a couple of things, which I admit I'll probably have to, are they not going to jump on absolutely every last piece of ******** he's come up with and my attempts at defense fall apart? In all honesty I'm being right royally screwed here and the thought of dishing over any more money sickens me and has my gf in tears.

I wish I could say something to remove your 'fear', but honestly you have absolutely nothing to be fearfull about. I think this thread is really usefull in that a lot of tenants do indeed feel intimidated and powerless, and unsure how to proceed, as lets be fair you are not the 'professionals' in these situations, you have relied on 'professionals (the LA/LL) to guide you previously. Most tenants are just ordinary hard working individuals. Ive said that, as this would be a good thread to see through to the end, for the benefit of others in you position.

Back to the thread. Hes a d*ck, amateur Landlord. Now we just have to help you point that out to him.

For your benefit;

Kitchen sink blocked? Isnt he lucky you arent living there as youd have called him out to fix it a.s.a.p. End of. What on earth has this got to do with you and whose to say his main drains arent sh*gged? He cant make any claim against you for that.

Mystery nail in wall? and how much does he really want to 'claim' for rectifying that? These really are ridiculous, and do try to stop doubting the fact that if you think they are ridiculous, they probably are.

This isnt an 'All or Nothing' situation. And yes where there MAYBE a reasonable request, (i.e. the glasses) in there, you would be wrong to dismiss everything in its entirerity, just because the rest is utter nonsense, and you're worried that if you admit to one part, it will be taken as admitting to all.

My letter back would go something as follows;

Dear Sirs, Many thanks for your comunication regards your clients reasons for witholding the deposit, which I view as completely unfounded.

You were contractually obliged to return my deposit on dd/mm/yy, which is 'x' number of weeks ago. I am however, in the spirit of reconciliation, prepared to make an full and final offer WITHOUT PREDJUDICE to pay £20 towards a set of missing glasses, and the cost of washing a set of bathroom curtains. This offer is made on the understanding that the deposit will then be released to me within 14 days.

If your client feels he is unable to accept my offer, I will request the TDS implement dispute resolution immediately. With that in mind can you please provide detail of when and by whom the 'check-out' inventory was completed.

May I please ask that you respond to this letter within 7 days, as failure to do so will leave me no further option but to pass this matter to the TDS.

Yours faithfully, love you lots xxxxxxx

Send it recorded.

EDIT: Ive just had a PM, so just to address my 'sparsity' in this type of response. There is no requirement to get into the nitty gritty with a LA in this case. The LL is witholding ALL the deposit in this case, and from what the OP has said so far, whilst hes received a list of 'moans' from the LA, he hasnt received a £ breakdown of what the LL is actually wishing to claim for. A landlord MUST provide the TDS with 1/ Detailed Inventory taken at the time of start of tenancy (preferably by an independant inventory clerk) 2/ Detailed Inventory at the time of checkout (preferably taken by an independant inventory clerk) and finally 3/ £ Proof of the damage and his £ losses.

Until these 3 points are completely satisfied, a tenant cannot be expected to even enter into a discussion regards his liabilities. If on the other hand, the OP had received (within 10 days of the end of tenancy) a financial breakdown as to the claim against him from the LL, and the amount of deposit in dispute, then yes, you would be expected to respond directly. Bearing in mind the un-disputed amount of deposit would have had to have been returned to the tenant within those 10 days.

A LL /LA cannot withold a deposit in full, for an un specified period of time, whilst they drag their heels trying to get a quote for filling a nail hole. And it is impossible for a tenant to respond to an unspecified £ claim for damage. Is the landlord asking for £10 to clean the mold, or is he asking for £1000 to redecorate? It may be that the tenant agrees to a £10 claim for cleaning, that yes he dried his clothes in the bathroom, and he could have cleaned up condensation. Whereas a £1000 claim for redocoration is a completely different issue due to the age of the property with no central heating.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Haventaclue

[Chugger]

Yours faithfully, love you lots xxxxxxx

Send it recorded.

EDIT: Ive just had a PM, so just to address my 'sparsity' in this type of response. There is no requirement to get into the nitty gritty with a LA in this case. The LL is witholding ALL the deposit in this case, and from what the OP has said so far, whilst hes received a list of 'moans' from the LA, he hasnt received a £ breakdown of what the LL is actually wishing to claim for. A landlord MUST provide the TDS with 1/ Detailed Inventory taken at the time of start of tenancy (preferably by an independant inventory clerk) 2/ Detailed Inventory at the time of checkout (preferably taken by an independant inventory clerk) and finally 3/ £ Proof of the damage and his £ losses.

Until these 3 points are completely satisfied, a tenant cannot be expected to even enter into a discussion regards his liabilities. If on the other hand, the OP had received (within 10 days of the end of tenancy) a financial breakdown as to the claim against him from the LL, and the amount of deposit in dispute, then yes, you would be expected to respond directly. Bearing in mind the un-disputed amount of deposit would have had to have been returned to the tenant within those 10 days.

A LL /LA cannot withold a deposit in full, for an un specified period of time, whilst they drag their heels trying to get a quote for filling a nail hole. And it is impossible for a tenant to respond to an unspecified £ claim for damage. Is the landlord asking for £10 to clean the mold, or is he asking for £1000 to redecorate? It may be that the tenant agrees to a £10 claim for cleaning, that yes he dried his clothes in the bathroom, and he could have cleaned up condensation. Whereas a £1000 claim for redocoration is a completely different issue due to the age of the property with no central heating.

Brilliant stuff.

Is it worth my while stating that I'm not going to pay for another phantom item that never existed in the property, but he's claiming for, or should I just leave it at the above?

[Number79]

Brilliant stuff.

Is it worth my while stating that I'm not going to pay for another phantom item that never existed in the property, but he's claiming for, or should I just leave it at the above?

Jesus christ! Are you still asking questions? Get on with it!

You have had some top advice here. Leave the letter as it is, don't get involved in any sort of discussion or arguement about any single or specific point/item. It just means that you are starting to accept some responsibility and liability.

The inventory report sounds to be completed properly so you have that as proof of what was there and the condition of the place. Send the letter, if they dont return your deposit in full then go straight to the tds. Whatever the tds decide, you will atleast know is fair and I am pretty confident that given the circumstance they probably wouldnt even ask you to pay for the glasses that you threw away.

[Haventaclue]

Lets try an example. Bear with me.

Lets say that no deposits are involved. You rent a place, come to the end of your tenancy and leave. Everything all fair and square at this point.

Then out of the blue you receive a letter something like this;

Dear ex-tenant, Our landlord visited the property and is very unhappy. There is washing up in the sink. The carpet looks dirty. The washing machine which was brand new when you moved in, looks like its been used. He had left his great grandmothers faberge egg in a bedroom drawer and now cant find it. The garden hasnt been mowed for 4 months. There is a nail in the wall. (At this stage hes unsure if the nail is new or hes missing a picture). The house is cold and damp and the wallpaper is falling of the walls. He is very upset at the state of the property. He feels that an amount of about £500 will make him feel better. Please send a cheque immediately, or hell take this letter to a court and theyll tell you to pay him £500. Yours faithfull LA.

What would you do? Most people would laugh and throw it in the bin. Some may reply with:

Dear LA, Thank you for your letter. We agree, we were equally as upset at the state of the property when we moved in. Hence, we moved out. Indeed the house was cold and damp, and the wallpaper was falling of. You havent mentioned the mold? The washing up may have been very thoughtless squatters that we saw entering the property the day after we moved out. Have you asked them about it? We did not find a faberge egg whilst we were there, but if we hear of one turning up in the locality well let you know. The garden indeed hasnt been mown for 4 months. Its February.

Im sorry we cant send you £500 to make your landlord feel better, perhaps if he writes to the samaritans I understand they a re very sympathetic, in a very non-judgemental way. Yes we did use the washing machine. Please let us know when you require us to attend court to answer for this.

Yours faithfully, xxxxxx PS My wife looks dirty but she hasnt 'given it up' for years'.

This, in effect , is what they have done. But its amazing the power of 'holding' the deposit that puts you on the back foot. You must remember the deposit is your money. They have to do a damn sight better than what theyve done so far, to even enter into justifying refusal to release it to you. Stick with the short sharp response, a list of moans is not good enough and does not warrant an individual response.

Remember the rules:

1/ They need an agreed moving in inventory (by default in this case we've covered earlier)

2/ They need a checking out inventory (preferably in your presence, but in the very least within a day or 2 of leaving and preferably completed by the same person who completed the moving in inventory).

3/ They need to show the landlords £ losses that he has incurred by your direct action/negligence, making clear the amount that they are requesting you agree to have deducted from the deposit.

All this must be sent to you within 10 days of leaving the tenancy along with confirmation of immediate release for the remaining deposit.

With the exception of point 1/ they have failed miserably on the next 2 points, and the sooner they get a response back from you similar to the one I suggested, the quicker they'll realise theyve failed miserably, and they are amateur d*cks.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Haventaclue

[Chugger]

Jesus christ! Are you still asking questions? Get on with it!

Fear not, it's in the post.

Lets try an example. Bear with me.

Lets say that no deposits are involved. You rent a place, come to the end of your tenancy and leave. Everything all fair and square at this point.

Then out of the blue you receive a letter something like this;

Dear ex-tenant, Our landlord visited the property and is very unhappy. There is washing up in the sink. The carpet looks dirty. The washing machine which was brand new when you moved in, looks like its been used. He had left his great grandmothers faberge egg in a bedroom drawer and now cant find it. The garden hasnt been mowed for 4 months. There is a nail in the wall. (At this stage hes unsure if the nail is new or hes missing a picture). The house is cold and damp and the wallpaper is falling of the walls. He is very upset at the state of the property. He feels that an amount of about £500 will make him feel better. Please send a cheque immediately, or hell take this letter to a court and theyll tell you to pay him £500. Yours faithfull LA.

What would you do? Most people would laugh and throw it in the bin. Some may reply with:

Dear LA, Thank you for your letter. We agree, we were equally as upset at the state of the property when we moved in. Hence, we moved out. Indeed the house was cold and damp, and the wallpaper was falling of. You havent mentioned the mold? The washing up may have been very thoughtless squatters that we saw entering the property the day after we moved out. Have you asked them about it? We did not find a faberge egg whilst we were there, but if we hear of one turning up in the locality well let you know. The garden indeed hasnt been mown for 4 months. Its February.

Im sorry we cant send you £500 to make your landlord feel better, perhaps if he writes to the samaritans I understand they a re very sympathetic, in a very non-judgemental way. Yes we did use the washing machine. Please let us know when you require us to attend court to answer for this.

Yours faithfully, xxxxxx PS My wife looks dirty but she hasnt 'given it up' for years'.

This, in effect , is what they have done. But its amazing the power of 'holding' the deposit that puts you on the back foot. You must remember the deposit is your money. They have to do a damn sight better than what theyve done so far, to even enter into justifying refusal to release it to you. Stick with the short sharp response, a list of moans is not good enough and does not warrant an individual response.

Remember the rules:

1/ They need an agreed moving in inventory (by default in this case we've covered earlier)

2/ They need a checking out inventory (preferably in your presence, but in the very least within a day or 2 of leaving and preferably completed by the same person who completed the moving in inventory).

3/ They need to show the landlords £ losses that he has incurred by your direct action/negligence, making clear the amount that they are requesting you agree to have deducted from the deposit.

All this must be sent to you within 10 days of leaving the tenancy along with confirmation of immediate release for the remaining deposit.

With the exception of point 1/ they have failed miserably on the next 2 points, and the sooner they get a response back from you similar to the one I suggested, the quicker they'll realise theyve failed miserably, and they are amateur d*cks.

Once again Haventaclue, that's absolutely fantastic. I've sent the letter you suggested and I'm now eagerly awaiting a reply.

Have you been through all this before?

[adrian777uk]

Brilliant stuff.

Is it worth my while stating that I'm not going to pay for another phantom item that never existed in the property, but he's claiming for, or should I just leave it at the above?

Do let us know how it turns out please.

[Chugger]

Had a response from the LA stating that they are only obliged to return deposits (or parts) that are not in dispute.

Apparently the amount being claimed by the LL is in excess of of our deposit. That's news to me since I've never seen any figures for costings at all.

[okaycuckoo]

To all - be careful about suing on a late protection of deposit in the TDS:

The finding here is that there is no requirement within the terms of the Housing Act 2004 itself that the deposit must be protected within 14 days of receipt that will incur the 3 x penalty. Thus, in terms of the Housing Act 2004 by itself, late compliance up to the very doors of court is possible and will allow the landlord to avoid a 3 x deposit penalty. But does this mean that landlords (and agents) are home free on the late compliance point? No. While there is no 14 day requirement in the Act, the requirement is to comply with the initial requirements of an authorised scheme. Failure to do that may well trigger the 3 x penalty. The question then is what are the initial requirements of the scheme?

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2010/02/two-weeks-three-months-whatever-tds-in-the-high-court/

[sleepwello'nights]

Had a response from the LA stating that they are only obliged to return deposits (or parts) that are not in dispute.

Apparently the amount being claimed by the LL is in excess of of our deposit. That's news to me since I've never seen any figures for costings at all.

Of course you know he's incorrect.

I take it you have initiated the dispute procedure with the relevant deposit protection organisation. Once you have started it the holder of the deposit has to pay over the amount disputed by the tenant to deposit scheme. The amount disputed will be the amount you say they should return to you. If for example you left a deposit of £1000 and you agreed with a deduction of say £20 for the lost set of drinking glasses then they would be able to retain the part of the deposit that was not in dispute, that is £20. So in this example they would have to remit £980 to the deposit scheme who will hold it until the arbitrator decides on the dispute. Once the arbitrator has made his decision the deposit is paid to the parties in accordance with the decision.

If the landlord or agent fails to remit the amount you say is owed to you then they forfeit any claim they have on your deposit and can also be expelled from the deposit scheme. This will impact heavily on their business as they will no longer be able to comply with the requirements for safeguarding tenant's deposits.

The process is relatively quick, it shouldn't take more than a month or two. At the start of the process both parties must respond to any request for information from the deposit scheme within fourteen days. The process really is quick and painless.

[MacGuffin]

Had a response from the LA stating that they are only obliged to return deposits (or parts) that are not in dispute.

Apparently the amount being claimed by the LL is in excess of of our deposit. That's news to me since I've never seen any figures for costings at all.

Ok then tochinoki, that's the way they are playing it. However, you don't have to continue engaging with them. Get the dispute resolution process started with the TDS tomorrow (if you haven't already).

Surely it must be clear to you by now that the LL and LA are just trying to intimidate you into agreeing to a substantial retention of your deposit, or trying to trick you into making an admission in writing that you might have broken some things?

You are still allowing them to set the terms of the debate, and then being surprised that you are not being treated fairly.

Get on to the TDS tomorrow and get the dispute resolution process started (the OFFICIAL process, not your LL's bullsh*t process).

[Chugger]

If the landlord or agent fails to remit the amount you say is owed to you then they forfeit any claim they have on your deposit and can also be expelled from the deposit scheme. This will impact heavily on their business as they will no longer be able to comply with the requirements for safeguarding tenant's deposits.

The landlord protected the deposit straight away, but I didn't get anything back after the 10 days other than a list of grumbles. No costings or any mention of money.

I haven't initiated a dispute yet, I was in the process of gathering together all the evidence when I sent the last and final letter.

Ok then tochinoki, that's the way they are playing it. However, you don't have to continue engaging with them. Get the dispute resolution process started with the TDS tomorrow (if you haven't already).

Surely it must be clear to you by now that the LL and LA are just trying to intimidate you into agreeing to a substantial retention of your deposit, or trying to trick you into making an admission in writing that you might have broken some things?

You are still allowing them to set the terms of the debate, and then being surprised that you are not being treated fairly.

Get on to the TDS tomorrow and get the dispute resolution process started (the OFFICIAL process, not your LL's bullsh*t process).

Will do. I've prepared as much evidence as I can. Fingers crossed.

[sleepwello'nights]

If the landlord or agent fails to remit the amount you say is owed to you then they forfeit any claim they have on your deposit and can also be expelled from the deposit scheme. This will impact heavily on their business as they will no longer be able to comply with the requirements for safeguarding tenant's deposits.

I don't follow your response to my comment. Perhaps the construction of my sentence is a bit clumsy. What I'm trying to say is that the holder of the deposit must pay to the deposit protection scheme the amount of the deposit you dispute. In the example I gave the landlord has to pay over £980 to the scheme. The arbitrator will then decide how much is to be returned to you and how much is to be returned to the landlord. As the deposit scheme hold the deposit they will comply with the arbitrators decision. Nothing the landlord can do to change it.

The landlord protected the deposit straight away, but I didn't get anything back after the 10 days other than a list of grumbles. No costings or any mention of money.

That's a given because if he hadn't your claim would be against him in the County Court for failure to comply with the requirements of the tenancy deposit regulations. Clearly he will try delaying tactics in the hope you will give up. That's why any dispute about the return of a deposit should be initiated with the deposit scheme straight away. There's no need for any faffing around.

I haven't initiated a dispute yet, I was in the process of gathering together all the evidence when I sent the last and final letter.

Will do. I've prepared as much evidence as I can. Fingers crossed.

You have no reason not to initiate the dispute process straight away. The only evidence you have to provide is payment of the deposit. Even then the landlords claim in itself is proof that he received the deposit from you. The landlord or his agent have to substantiate and provide evidence for the deductions they claim.

[Haventaclue]

I don't follow your response to my comment. Perhaps the construction of my sentence is a bit clumsy. What I'm trying to say is that the holder of the deposit must pay to the deposit protection scheme the amount of the deposit you dispute. In the example I gave the landlord has to pay over £980 to the scheme. The arbitrator will then decide how much is to be returned to you and how much is to be returned to the landlord. As the deposit scheme hold the deposit they will comply with the arbitrators decision. Nothing the landlord can do to change it.

That's a given because if he hadn't your claim would be against him in the County Court for failure to comply with the requirements of the tenancy deposit regulations. Clearly he will try delaying tactics in the hope you will give up. That's why any dispute about the return of a deposit should be initiated with the deposit scheme straight away. There's no need for any faffing around.

You have no reason not to initiate the dispute process straight away. The only evidence you have to provide is payment of the deposit. Even then the landlords claim in itself is proof that he received the deposit from you. The landlord or his agent have to substantiate and provide evidence for the deductions they claim.

Sleepy is quite right. Your only evidence required is that you paid a deposit. Its down to the LL to provide solid evidence of problems/loss attributed to you. Only when he has done that (if he ever does), will you then have plenty of opportunity to address each £ and pence claim. You cant address sweeping statements.

The longer you leave this, the more time you are giving him. You dont want to do that.

[MacGuffin]

What happened with this? Update, please!

Tochinoki, if you haven't contacted the TDS to start the dispute resolution yet, I am going to climb through the internet and kick your @rse!

[Chugger]

What happened with this? Update, please!

Tochinoki, if you haven't contacted the TDS to start the dispute resolution yet, I am going to climb through the internet and kick your @rse!

I received a letter from the Landlord offering to only take half of my deposit (what a generous bloke), but I'd already sent off my dispute to the TDS. So I binned the letter and smiled at the thought that he's going to have to justify his feelings of entitlement with the TDS before he gets a penny of our deposit.

The last I heard about it he'd asked for a 2 week extension in order to compile his version of events.

The Mrs. and I moved in with her folks while we sort this whole mess out and so far they've saved us a fortune, bless 'em.

[MacGuffin]

Landlord will be crapping himself right about now, as it beings to sink in that he cannot keep any of your money.

Keep us posted.

[Rozza]

I received a letter from the Landlord offering to only take half of my deposit (what a generous bloke), but I'd already sent off my dispute to the TDS. So I binned the letter and smiled at the thought that he's going to have to justify his feelings of entitlement with the TDS before he gets a penny of our deposit.

The last I heard about it he'd asked for a 2 week extension in order to compile his version of events.

The Mrs. and I moved in with her folks while we sort this whole mess out and so far they've saved us a fortune, bless 'em.

Hope you still have the letter.. thats a nice piece of evidence there. If its a genuine claim why would they offer to only yake half.. short answer 'they wouldnt'

[Chugger]

Hope you still have the letter.. thats a nice piece of evidence there. If its a genuine claim why would they offer to only yake half.. short answer 'they wouldnt'

Yeah I wish i'd received that before I sent off my side of the dispute. I don't think you get the chance to submit anything else once it's in the process.

[MacGuffin]

Tochinoki, what is happening with this?

Is it all resolved now? If so, what happened? If not, what's going on?

[Chugger]

I'm still waiting. The latest thing in the dispute history just says:

15th Apr 2010 Pre-Adj Review Complete

But I've had nothing in the post. I keep meaning to phone them but have been busy moving into a new flat the past week.

[jfk]

Interested to see how this one goes incase I end up down this route.

... did you know that brake fluid poured over a car burns down to the chassis ... interesting that isn't it?

[Chugger]

Just rang the TDS and was informed that the dispute is about half the way through and will take another 4-5 weeks. It's usually meant to be resolved within 5 weeks.

Apparently this is the case for everyone due to 'an increased demand' for their 'services'. Perhaps due to an increased number of forced landlords I wonder...

[MacGuffin]

Just rang the TDS and was informed that the dispute is about half the way through and will take another 4-5 weeks. It's usually meant to be resolved within 5 weeks.

Apparently this is the case for everyone due to 'an increased demand' for their 'services'. Perhaps due to an increased number of forced landlords I wonder...

That really surprises me. I was under the impression the TD schemes were fast and efficient. I cannot believe resolving your dispute is going to take up to 10 weeks!

Oh well, keep us posted. Any word (threatening/begging/conciliatory) from your landlord or the letting agents since you referred the matter to the TDS for resolution?

[Chugger]

The results are in.

Thanks to everyone for all their advice, but alas, it was in vain. The TDS sought fit to grant my landlord more than half my deposit.

They acknowledged that the landlord was taking the piss in trying to charge us for things that were listed on the original inventory but felt he deserved nearly £200 to redecorate the place (another thin slap of magnolia paint) due to the odd scuff mark that existed. They also didn't believe us about the ridiculous level of humidity and somehow felt we were to blame for bubbling wallpaper.

I'll upload the exact exact response eventually but right now I feel so enraged I could spit bile.