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Brown's Government 'utterly Dysfunctional'


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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20100123/tuk-brown-s-government-utterly-dysfuncti-dba1618.html

Gordon Brown's Government has become "utterly dysfunctional" and is failing to prepare the way for essential spending cuts, the leader of the top civil servants' union has claimed.
Jonathan Baume, the general secretary of the First Division Association, said 10 Downing Street was seen as a "blockage" by Whitehall mandarins because of the difficulty of getting a clear decision from the Prime Minister.
He said some Labour ministers had "given up the fight" and were already focusing on the aftermath of the election.
Behind the scenes, top civil servants were informally preparing for the possibility of a Conservative government with a new policy agenda.
Mr Baume told The Guardian newspaper: "The dysfunction is partly political and partly organisational. No-one is clear how the Treasury, the Prime Minister's office and the Cabinet Office actually loop together and come up with a coherent policy initiative.
"When Gordon Brown became Prime Minister, no clear direction ever emerged from him."

Unusual for Civil Servants to rebel against their political masters. This may be an invitation to the "men in grey suits" to remove him from office before he does any more damage to the country. Poor old Gordon lacked the temprement, personaility and skill for the job. What a terrible disaster for the country that we have suffered him this long.

Edited by Realistbear
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i suppose theres a small chance the tories may get back in by the time your son is of working age if they win the next election but id only put it at 50/50

I'd hope that by the time he's 18 there will be a real alternative any of the current political choices, but whatever, I hope our bill to his generation won't be too much of a burden.

Edited by Snagger
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I'd hope that by the time he's 18 there will be a real alternative any of the current political choices, but whatever, I hope our bill to his generation won't be too much of a burden.

hard to see without electoral reform of the first past post system but it would be positive to see unless the ongoing collapse is so bad as to bring around something altogether more sinister

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I don't know, you grow up in a presbyterian, Scottish environment - work hard at school - go to University - always do the right thing - join the Labour party because you want to change the world for the better - work your way up - find yourself chancellor for 10 years - manoeuvre the treacherous b'stard next door into retirement and take your long worked for position as the PRIME minister.

Then you have a real chance to change the world for the better.

Then it turns out you're completely useless and have bankrupted your country leaving many of its citizens impoverished and up to their ears in debt with a generation of bankers rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

Must be a huge disappointment. All those dreams and it turns out you're a tosser.

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I don't know, you grow up in a presbyterian, Scottish environment - work hard at school - go to University - always do the right thing - join the Labour party because you want to change the world for the better - work your way up - find yourself chancellor for 10 years - manoeuvre the treacherous b'stard next door into retirement and take your long worked for position as the PRIME minister.

Then you have a real chance to change the world for the better.

Then it turns out you're completely useless and have bankrupted your country leaving many of its citizens impoverished and up to their ears in debt with a generation of bankers rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

Must be a huge disappointment. All those dreams and it turns out you're a tosser.

Yes, although I think we should all start a No.10 petition titled Stay Gordon! Don't Let The Bowler Hats Interfere! so that he can indeed face the music.

After all, he was the chap who kicked the Sage and Onion out of the savers who were actually spending and keeping the economy going previously, in favour of the feckless indebted who suddenly wised up and are paying down their debt and only spending money in Poundland! :lol: So no savers spending, fewer credit junkies spending! Brrrrrrilliant!

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As much as I want that, for the sake of my 18month old son, I sure as hell hope GB goes ASAP.

I assume your son to be free of credit card debt. Is he looking for a mortgage.

Desparate Mortgage Services Inc.

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I assume your son to be free of credit card debt. Is he looking for a mortgage.

Desparate Mortgage Services Inc.

Infant Mortgages - because your baby knows a good investment when he gurgles one.

[Monthly repayments deducted from Statutory Child Benefit payments, your pushchair is at risk if you do not keep up repayments on a mortgage or loan secured on it]

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Behind the scenes, top civil servants were informally preparing for the possibility of a Conservative government with a new policy agenda.

>

As they do before every election. In fact, "informally" is stretching it a bit, its part of their job to do so formally. God knows you can find out about this but its not a secret, the two opposition parties have had months of meetings with Civil Servants. There is even a department that deals with this, can't recall off-hand, they were interviewed around 12 months ago. Its only in HPC/Daily Mail fantasyland that someone strides into No.10 sits down and starts barking out immediate orders... what this should tell you incidentally is that when politicians lie to you before an election, they know they are lying. What they have planned to do is already in motion pending a win, what they say they will do and won't do isn't. Always wondered if a suitable FOI request would work to expose it. The top lie being of course "we can't say anything until we look at the books" when they have the same access the government has.

Edited by Cogs
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As they do before every election. In fact, "informally" is stretching it a bit, its part of their job to do so formally. God knows you can find out about this but its not a secret, the two opposition parties have had months of meetings with Civil Servants. There is even a department that deals with this, can't recall off-hand, they were interviewed around 12 months ago. Its only in HPC/Daily Mail fantasyland that someone strides into No.10 sits down and starts barking out immediate orders... what this should tell you incidentally is that when politicians lie to you before an election, they know they are lying. What they have planned to do is already in motion pending a win, what they say they will do and won't do isn't. Always wondered if a suitable FOI request would work to expose it. The top lie being of course "we can't say anything until we look at the books" when they have the same access the government has.

Yes I recal the same articles. I would be interested to know whether the planning changes depending on percieved likelyhood of regime change.

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As they do before every election. In fact, "informally" is stretching it a bit, its part of their job to do so formally. God knows you can find out about this but its not a secret, the two opposition parties have had months of meetings with Civil Servants. There is even a department that deals with this, can't recall off-hand, they were interviewed around 12 months ago. Its only in HPC/Daily Mail fantasyland that someone strides into No.10 sits down and starts barking out immediate orders... what this should tell you incidentally is that when politicians lie to you before an election, they know they are lying. What they have planned to do is already in motion pending a win, what they say they will do and won't do isn't. Always wondered if a suitable FOI request would work to expose it. The top lie being of course "we can't say anything until we look at the books" when they have the same access the government has.

yes but only the winner gets to meet the Minister of Magic

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hard to see without electoral reform of the first past post system but it would be positive to see unless the ongoing collapse is so bad as to bring around something altogether more sinister

There have been quite a few "first past the post" versus "proportional representation" posts from you and others recently.

I am genuinely intrigued (as opposed to "having a go") about the value of a proportional representation system. From what I can see :

Pros

- Parties who are well supported minght gain a larger proportional influence on political proceedings

- The maths is kind of cool (this is the first time that I have ever described a Victrian era Belgian lawyer and mathetican's work as cool).

- The system forces consensus rather than bullying which works well (Germany)

Cons

- The lunatic fringe get a chance to gain influence even though the vast majority of people have no interest in seeing them involved (BNP and the Greens as two extremes)

- Governments tend to have a less clear mandate which causes stasis (Greece, Italy etc)

- People befome disengaged from the political process as the winners are not clear

I look forward to hearing people's thoughts. I am agnostic and curious rather than religious and dogmatic about the differences between the two systems.

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There have been quite a few "first past the post" versus "proportional representation" posts from you and others recently.

I am genuinely intrigued (as opposed to "having a go") about the value of a proportional representation system. From what I can see :

Pros

- Parties who are well supported minght gain a larger proportional influence on political proceedings

- The maths is kind of cool (this is the first time that I have ever described a Victrian era Belgian lawyer and mathetican's work as cool).

- The system forces consensus rather than bullying which works well (Germany)

Cons

- The lunatic fringe get a chance to gain influence even though the vast majority of people have no interest in seeing them involved (BNP and the Greens as two extremes)

- Governments tend to have a less clear mandate which causes stasis (Greece, Italy etc)

- People befome disengaged from the political process as the winners are not clear

I look forward to hearing people's thoughts. I am agnostic and curious rather than religious and dogmatic about the differences between the two systems.

well to answer your three cons

i think its probably actually healthy to have the lunatic fringe represented if thats whats voted for and democracy means, rather than the constant of dont rock the boat middle politics making politicians fat and lazy metaphorically speaking, youd also see a few less career politicians which is a huge problem

Ithink the stasis is preferable to the current system of politics where whips have all the power and your constituent you voted for is forced to tow the party line whether its what they were voted in for or not

people are far more disengaged when their vote is redundant purely due to geographical location, rather than having to resort to tactical voting you should be able to vote for who you want and have it be counted

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I'd hope that by the time he's 18 there will be a real alternative any of the current political choices, but whatever, I hope our bill to his generation won't be too much of a burden.

I fear the future for our children is dire. Many other parts of the world are going to be famine stricken and inhabitants of those parts are going to be coming to Europe.

The biggest problem this world faces is going to be overcrowding. There will come a time and I don't think that time is very far away, that the Earth will not have enough resources to cope with an ever expanding human population. If humanity does not shift from it's present course we will not survive.

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well to answer your three cons

i think its probably actually healthy to have the lunatic fringe represented if thats whats voted for and democracy means, rather than the constant of dont rock the boat middle politics making politicians fat and lazy metaphorically speaking, youd also see a few less career politicians which is a huge problem

Ithink the stasis is preferable to the current system of politics where whips have all the power and your constituent you voted for is forced to tow the party line whether its what they were voted in for or not

people are far more disengaged when their vote is redundant purely due to geographical location, rather than having to resort to tactical voting you should be able to vote for who you want and have it be counted

Fair points.

I am a fairly conservative person but I do accept that a 100% effort from the lunatic fringe (your words not mine) has dragged the central point of some debates 1% to the left or to the right which has been very positive for society as a whole.

As an example, I regard some of Greenpeace's actions and some of the French government's reactions as reprehensible but I think that both actions have materially changed the terms of the debate for the better.

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I fear the future for our children is dire. Many other parts of the world are going to be famine stricken and inhabitants of those parts are going to be coming to Europe.

The biggest problem this world faces is going to be overcrowding. There will come a time and I don't think that time is very far away, that the Earth will not have enough resources to cope with an ever expanding human population. If humanity does not shift from it's present course we will not survive.

The masters are well aware of this and thats why WW3 will soon be upon us

or an equivalent plan to reduce total numbers

it can come in the form of world famine , epidemic or a series of localised wars that

have large casualty figures . Civil unrest and a backlash against the immigrant communities

I can see us living under a State of Emergency in an Orwellian society with rationing cards

and curfews ,power cuts and a welfare state reduced to soup kitchens and workhouses re introduced

throw in sterilisation under the guise of neccesary vaccinations where placebos are sent to the

wealthy areas and genuine to the poorest and within 30 yrs we will have the society that they dream of

Sound far fetched ?

In reality its been going on for a long time on a smaller scale in many parts of the world

Technologically we have raced ahead in the past century , but morally and ethically

we have done little more than window dressing

If you speak to our elderly then they'll tell you we have gone backwards as a society

we have lots of laws and directives about political correctness to ensure a more caring and sharing society

but in my opinion we are a less caring society than we ever were

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go back to my cave and stir my beans

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Cons

- The lunatic fringe get a chance to gain influence even though the vast majority of people have no interest in seeing them involved (BNP and the Greens as two extremes)

Looks to me like the biggest misunderstanding/misinformation.

Our current system is actually worse, because it means a small (and extremist) tail can wag the dogs of both main parties, if seen to be key swing voters in key marginal seats. Under PR, they may get representation, but they don't get control of the main parties.

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I don't know, you grow up in a presbyterian, Scottish environment - work hard at school - go to University - always do the right thing - join the Labour party because you want to change the world for the better - work your way up - find yourself chancellor for 10 years - manoeuvre the treacherous b'stard next door into retirement and take your long worked for position as the PRIME minister.

Then you have a real chance to change the world for the better.

Then it turns out you're completely useless and have bankrupted your country leaving many of its citizens impoverished and up to their ears in debt with a generation of bankers rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

Must be a huge disappointment. All those dreams and it turns out you're a tosser.

Brown was already 'in' with the bankers decades before!

He was shadow? finance minister and reckoned important enough to open the Barclays regional headquarters just outside Coventry circa 1990 - just as they were sacking all the old skool bank managers and setting everything in place ready for this bankers/housing rip-off decade (when 'loony' Brown coincidently 'just happens' to have gotten himself into the PM's seat! Nudge, nudge wink, wink & all that.) AND MANDLESON REAPPEARS ON THE SCENE!

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<snip>

throw in sterilisation under the guise of neccesary vaccinations where placebos are sent to the

wealthy areas and genuine to the poorest and within 30 yrs we will have the society that they dream of

<snip>

You think they want the wealthy or at least the self reliant to reproduce? :blink:

If the last 12 years should teach you anything it's that they prefer a docile client state of benefit dependants and 50% ill educated plebs waving worthless degrees.

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Yes if only the Con's would gain power we would all be happy, not.

All we have is a system where the main parties only argue about who's geting up to put the kettle on or did i miss the bit where camroom demanded justice for Ian Tomlinson and tried to stop cheap immigrant labour flooding the country.

Sorry guys but too many here are sucked in and it's a bit like religious scolars arguing over what the stones said whislt all beliving the earth is flat.

be funney to read what some here say in a years time with the Cons in and what they will say about more SS style policeing, massaive tax rises and the bins only being emptied once every two weeks cus we all need to go green.

wake up and start thinking

Edited by Justice
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well to answer your three cons

i think its probably actually healthy to have the lunatic fringe represented if thats whats voted for and democracy means, rather than the constant of dont rock the boat middle politics making politicians fat and lazy metaphorically speaking, youd also see a few less career politicians which is a huge problem

Ithink the stasis is preferable to the current system of politics where whips have all the power and your constituent you voted for is forced to tow the party line whether its what they were voted in for or not

people are far more disengaged when their vote is redundant purely due to geographical location, rather than having to resort to tactical voting you should be able to vote for who you want and have it be counted

Career politicians? With proportional representation, you normally get list MPs, so you have politicians that have never been a candidate in a election getting a list seat.

Looks to me like the biggest misunderstanding/misinformation.

Our current system is actually worse, because it means a small (and extremist) tail can wag the dogs of both main parties, if seen to be key swing voters in key marginal seats. Under PR, they may get representation, but they don't get control of the main parties.

I don't agree with this. In a two party system that adopts proportional representation, sometimes parties with a small number of seats say they will form a coalition with a large party only if they do x. They then have the two large parties by the short and curlies. If the greens got 15 percent of the vote, they could possibly form a government with cons or labour. As a large party you could either give into their demands and be in government, or be in opposition.

In this country (where you have three party politics) , you'd probably always have to have two of the big three parties (Cons, Lib dems, BNP ) having to join together. What a mess.

Having said all that, I'd still be up for proportional representation.

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