Tory Tax Rises

[insidetrack]

Yes very sensible to pay someone £5,000 on the dole than employ them in a non-job at £50,000. The money thus saved can be used for either reducing government borrowing or reducing taxation on genuine wealth creating work.

You cannot reduce the tax take by getting rid of public sector workers as they are not nett tax contributors.

As for reducing demand, demand for what? Take a look at where your Christmas presents were made, its like 'Around the world in 80 shops.' If it reduces demand for overpriced housing then that's even better.

A fundamental rebalancing of the economy is needed. Until that is done the underlying problems will continue to worsen.

+1

If only more people understood the basics of how the economy worked. If only the man who has been Chancellor and First Lord of the Treasury for the last twelve years could could do basic bookkeeping, understand the nature of wealth creation or even have a grasp of basic arithmetic. Why oh why have we allowed them to get us into this mess!

[Guest absolutezero]

Really? In which case the factory I'll be going back to work at tomorrow doesn't exist. They'll be some disappointed people in Poland and Norway and Holland when the goods they're expecting us to make for them don't arrive.

You currently work in such a factory but can you guarantee it won't have been offshored in 5 or 10 years time?

The problem is that we don't create enough wealth hence permanent trade deficits and ever increasing debt.

If we don't start creating more wealth then living standards are going to fall.

We can't compete with Indians on a wage of $5 a day doing out £25,000 jobs.

The world will not keep suppling this country with food, energy and consumer goods without getting something worthwhile in return.

Sources of foreign earnings in this country are manufacturing (what's left of it), North Sea Oil (what's left of it), the City (but not as much as they claimed) and some agriculture, educational servies and tourism.

Unfortunately not enough for us to pay our way in the world.

So basically, we're done for.

[Johnny Storm]

The world will not keep suppling this country with food, energy and consumer goods without getting something worthwhile in return.

Unfortunately not enough for us to pay our way in the world.

Which is why we will go back to taking what we want by force of arms. Good old days.

[ken_ichikawa]

Which is why we will go back to taking what we want by force of arms. Good old days.

How? , our military capacity is somewhat limited these days, as some commentators have said Falklands happened today we would not be able to assemble the Operation Corporate task force to retake them.

[daddybear]

Yes very sensible to pay someone £5,000 on the dole than employ them in a non-job at £50,000. The money thus saved can be used for either reducing government borrowing or reducing taxation on genuine wealth creating work.

You cannot reduce the tax take by getting rid of public sector workers as they are not nett tax contributors.

As for reducing demand, demand for what? Take a look at where your Christmas presents were made, its like 'Around the world in 80 shops.' If it reduces demand for overpriced housing then that's even better.

A fundamental rebalancing of the economy is needed. Until that is done the underlying problems will continue to worsen.

Absolutely, is a major salary review in the public sector

Get rid of all non jobs and slash £10k off the salary of anyone earning over £40k

If they dont like it theres the door

[silver panda]

You currently work in such a factory but can you guarantee it won't have been offshored in 5 or 10 years time?

We can't compete with Indians on a wage of $5 a day doing out £25,000 jobs.

So basically, we're done for.

1. You can't guarantee anything but due to the nature of our work I think its pretty safe. Labour costs are only a small proportion of total costs and it costs extra time and money to send things from India to this country.

2. True but I doubt a lot of high end wealth creation could find Indians able to do it for $5 a day. People in the City on £250,000 jobs will be at risk from Indians on $25,000 though.

3. I'm afraid so, decling living standards in this country.

[RichB]

If the tories win it will be them who enacts the emergency budgets at swinging axes of cuts, hence they will be hated by all those who lose their homes and jobs, Labour will be able to run adverts like in 1997 about children whose parents were repo'd.

They will have one term.

If Labour win the scortched earth policy explodes in their own face, creating so much hatred that Labour will get all the blame as everything has happened on their watch and thus they may vanish from politics forever.

Thats if the labour party do not start cancelling elections 2015 and 2020.

Nice to see some other people think the way I do about this.

[Guest absolutezero]

Absolutely, is a major salary review in the public sector

Get rid of all non jobs and slash £10k off the salary of anyone earning over £40k

If they dont like it theres the door their contract of employment and the courts.

[Guest absolutezero]

1. You can't guarantee anything but due to the nature of our work I think its pretty safe. Labour costs are only a small proportion of total costs and it costs extra time and money to send things from India to this country.

As soon as it becomes more profitable to offshore, then offshore they will. Don't delude yourself.

2. True but I doubt a lot of high end wealth creation could find Indians able to do it for $5 a day. People in the City on £250,000 jobs will be at risk from Indians on $25,000 though.

Why?

Maybe not $5 a day but certainly a lot less than by someone in the West.

[silver panda]

Laws can be changed.

But in any case the government is much more likely to inflate away the debt.

Same nett effect - lower living standards.

[silver panda]

As soon as it becomes more profitable to offshore, then offshore they will. Don't delude yourself.

Why?

Maybe not $5 a day but certainly a lot less than by someone in the West.

Not deluding myself at all. If it was cheaper they would do it.

It's not cheaper and not likely to be for the foreseeable future either.

It's work which has a high labour cost as a proportion of total cost that is at risk of outsourcing. Hence old style assembly lines, textiles, call centres and I expect many finance/legal jobs soon.

Of course you had better make sure YOUR job can't be done cheaper by some foreigner or immigrant or computer

[Guest absolutezero]

Not deluding myself at all. If it was cheaper they would do it.

It's not cheaper and not likely to be for the foreseeable future either.

It's work which has a high labour cost as a proportion of total cost that is at risk of outsourcing. Hence old style assembly lines, textiles, call centres and I expect many finance/legal jobs soon.

Of course you had better make sure YOUR job can't be done cheaper by some foreigner or immigrant or computer

I'm about as secure as they come.

-Teachers can't be replaced by machines. They tried and it didn't work.

-"Foreigners" tend not to last 5 minutes because they have a funny accent and anything "different" is a weakness the kids exploit. Mercilessly. A lot of 'foreigners' come and teach here and then go back after a few months because they think the discipline is shocking.

-The only option is to offshore the kids but there is a fair amount of what I believe is termed "consumer resistance" to that.

[Guest absolutezero]

Yes this is needed but no government will do it.

Because there is no alternative.

The private sector is shedding UK jobs like mad and there's nothing to take up the slack except for State jobs.

[Bob Loblaw]

Absolutely, is a major salary review in the public sector

Get rid of all non jobs and slash £10k off the salary of anyone earning over £40k

If they dont like it theres the door

So someone on 41k gets 31k and someone on 39k still gets 39k.

Yeah, that sounds like a well thought out plan.

[stevemo]

It'll be interesting to watch the opinion polls over the next few days - so far the Tories have dropped back every time that tax rises have been suggested. They still can snatch defeat/hung parliament from the jaws of victory. People have had 13 years of tax rises and "redistribution", I think they are now ready for cuts in preference to further tax rises - at least until the cuts start to affect them and those around them.

[gasket37]

anything "different" is a weakness the kids exploit. Mercilessly.

christ you must have some fun then

being a gayer and all

[Tonkers]

It'll be interesting to watch the opinion polls over the next few days - so far the Tories have dropped back every time that tax rises have been suggested. They still can snatch defeat/hung parliament from the jaws of victory. People have had 13 years of tax rises and "redistribution", I think they are now ready for cuts in preference to further tax rises - at least until the cuts start to affect them and those around them.

Yet they don't see Labours £15 surcharge on minor offence fines as another tax that will be reappropriated as neccessary? That the list of what constitutes a minor offence will explode?

They have done this really well haven't they, oh, won't affect me I don't do anything wrong.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[Guest absolutezero]

christ you must have some fun then

being a gayer and all

You'd not know unless you were told.

[dances with sheeple]

The BBC

The Brown and Blair Corporation

used to be, now it`s the Bankrupt B*stards Corporation

[dances with sheeple]

As discussed yesterday, isnt the game now to cause doubt in the markets, leading to the gratifying sight of Gordon being forced to confront some of his own mess before the election? Punch and Judy politics for the highest stakes? Very sly, but neverthless a good move by the Tories. International markets rooting for a Tory government, Gordons personality inclined to call at the very last moment, too late and pointless for a leadership challenge, leading to a big enough gap for things to start unwinding badly? Throw in the fact that I think the Tories are seen as tougher on immigration, because distasteful as it may be the Brits wont be nice to Johnny Foreigner when their lifestyle is going south in a handcart. I think LieBours wars and immigration policy would have F*cked them up anyway (plus Gordon not really connecting with the public) the economic storm just seals their fate?

[bogbrush]

Can you please clarify this.

Okay so it's not total debt.

But is it

i) Halving the annual deficit

or

ii) Halving the growth of the annual deficit

quite different things, how has the deficit been referred to in the past has there been a shift? Or am i reading hpc spin vs govt spin?

Sure.

First; define the deficit. It is the total amount owed, which is currently about £840bn.

To halve that you would have to repay £420bn, which would be great but not possible right now.

The growth of the deficit is currently running at about £180bn a year, far more than twice the worst numbers ever seen before. It is this number which they mean when they say "halve the deficit". They should tell the truth and say "halve the annual increase in the deficit". They intend to do nothing whatsoever about the actual deficit, but to reduce the pace at which it increases by half in quite a few years, down to a number that is horriffic and obscene by any historical standard.

OK?

For me, this is the absolute definition of a bust corporation.

[1929crash]

Sure.

First; define the deficit. It is the total amount owed, which is currently about £840bn.

To halve that you would have to repay £420bn, which would be great but not possible right now.

The growth of the deficit is currently running at about £180bn a year, far more than twice the worst numbers ever seen before. It is this number which they mean when they say "halve the deficit". They should tell the truth and say "halve the annual increase in the deficit". They intend to do nothing whatsoever about the actual deficit, but to reduce the pace at which it increases by half in quite a few years, down to a number that is horriffic and obscene by any historical standard.

OK?

For me, this is the absolute definition of a bust corporation.

A corporation is a very different creature from the state.

[bogbrush]

A corporation is a very different creature from the state.

Really? Bust though, isn't it?

[1929crash]

Really? Bust though, isn't it?

No more so than the USA. A lot less so, IMO.

[bogbrush]

No more so than the USA. A lot less so, IMO.

Irrelevent; two knackered operations and we're debating which one is slightly less f*cked than the other.

By the way, imo the USA is more likely to come out of this better in the end mainly because somewhere in there remains an acceptance that creating wealth matters. In the UK we're hopelessly lost in public sector fantasy activity. The Uk is basically done and will have to crash before it comes back, if it can.