The Uk Needs 500,000 Engineers By 2017

[bpw]

I read a couple online articles in the New Civil Engineer, along with the comments, and was not surprised to see that sentiment, towards engineering as a career choice, has not changed in the past 25 years. Most of the comments were negative with gripes about terms and conditions, poor public appreciation of what engineers do, and hints at how long hours working away from home harm peoples personal lives. The same complaints were being voiced over 25 years ago when I graduated so it led me to reflect on what I now believe. Looking back and taking on board some of the most significant learnings I have to say it's clear that I made a mistake and should have chosen a better career path. Put simply - engineering IS a second rate profession with second rate terms and conditions. Why else would nothing have changed? Now, this statement needs to be put into perspective - when I say second rate, its all relative, what I mean is I would have been far better off choosing a career in medicine or finance, etc. Being a doctor of engineering gets me far less respect that being a doctor of medicine. Moreover, I could list 20 anecdotal reasons why I have sadly come to think of engineers as second rate professionals.

So what do others think? If you share my point of view then we should all be making a point of letting our relatives and acquaintances know - that way countless thousand of young minds won't be sent down the wrong path by careers advisors who are acting on behalf of the government who are acting on behalf of the employers. If you agree with me then you should all be adding comments to online articles like the ones below:

Link

Link2

One line of thinking is that engineers need re-branding to avoid the public confusing car mechanics (i.e. apprenticed technicians) with engineers. This is an old chestnut that I personally regard as irrelevant. The issue is not about titles, or gongs, it's all about how our role as design engineers is sublimated by others like the financiers of a big civil project, or the architect of a large building, or the scientists who conceived the Large Hadron Collider. Perhaps the truth is starting us in the face - it IS a second rate career: I certainly know of no other profession where the clients (oil companies) refer to the engineering contractor as the SCUMBAGS.

Edited December 27, 2009 by bpw

[Guest absolutezero]

PS - One line of thinking is that engineers need re-branding to avoid the public confusing car mechanics (i.e. apprentices technicians) with engineers. This is an old chestnut that I personally regard as irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant.

This is a part of why engineers' wages (by that I mean real engineers, not the person who fixes your central heating or someone who mends cars) are declining and will continue to decline.

Sow the seed about what constitutes an 'engineer' and the wages will fall unless it goes unchallenged.

[wonderpup]

I read recently that a major concern now being expressed by young people deciding on a career path was vulnerability to being outsourced. Given that China and India are turning out a lot of engineers, is this a factor- or is the outsource issue overdone?

[Georgia O'Keeffe]

I read a couple online articles in the New Civil Engineer, along with the comments, and was not surprised to see that sentiment, towards engineering as a career choice, have not changed in the past 25 years. Most of the comments were negative with gripes about terms and conditions, poor public appreciation of what engineers do, and hints at how long hours working away from home harm peoples personal lives. The same complaints were being voiced over 25 years ago when I graduated so it led me to reflect on what I now believe. Looking back and taking on board some of the most significant learnings I have to say it's clear that I made a mistake and should have chosen a better career path. Put simply - engineering IS a second rate profession with second rate terms and conditions. Why else would nothing have changed? Now, this statement needs to be put into perspective - when I say second rate, its all relative, what I mean is I would have been far better off choosing a career in medicine or finance, etc. Being a doctor of engineering gets me far less respect that being a doctor of medicine. Moreover, I could list 20 anecdotal reasons why I have sadly come to think of engineers as second rate professionals.

So what do others think? If you share my point of view then we should all be making a point of letting our relatives and acquaintances know - that way countless thousand of young minds won't be sent down the wrong path by careers advisors who are acting on behalf of the government who are acting on behalf of the employers. If you agree with me then you should all be adding comments to online articles like the ones below:

Link

Link2

One line of thinking is that engineers need re-branding to avoid the public confusing car mechanics (i.e. apprenticed technicians) with engineers. This is an old chestnut that I personally regard as irrelevant. The issue is not about titles, or gongs, it's all about how our role as design engineers is sublimated by others like the financiers of a big civil project, or the architect of a large building, or the scientists who conceived the Large Hadron Collider. Perhaps the truths is starting us in the face - it IS a second rate career: I certainly know of no other profession where the clients (oil companies) refer to the engineering contractor as the SCUMBAGS.

the uk has far too many engineers and spends to much time dreaming of the old days of IKB, this is why it is such a mess. If anything the uk is in desperate need of REAL wealth creaters , diversity officers , financiers, brokers and the like.

[Clocker]

The 500,000 in the article includes all manufacturing workers not the number of Professional Engineers.

[Lagarde's Drift]

Yes Engineers should be on tap not on top is the golden rule as most cant use the left side of their brain and get caught up in detail and become indecisive.

The worst ever pub crawl I attended at uni was the Engineers one. My perception of that lot then was: very intelligent and capable within the discipline, but the majority were stunningly inept socially. Since then I have met some good engineers who also happen to be good managers, but I suspect they may be in the minority.

[fallingbuzzard]

Engineers, for what?

Yes scarcity if the reason that we are in such high demand.

[dubsie]

The way to look on this is that a qualification in Civil Engineering is a means to getting into management level in the worldwide construction industry. This is a highly paid and rewarding industry for those that like to create things. Project, divisional and corporate management roles in a construction contracting or client or consulting organisation are decent jobs. Just don’t try and be a Scum Bag Engineering Manager as that is a dead end job in my books.

Yes Engineers should be on tap not on top is the golden rule as most cant use the left side of their brain and get caught up in detail and become indecisive.

I also find that Mechanical Engineers are as silly as Civil Engineers so I don’t think the discipline actually matters. Civil Engineers that get into management tend to do better and rise farther in mechanical type contracting organisations such as oil and gas.

God you talk some crap. Engineers are still some of the highest paid professionals in the job market and will remain to be for at least 40 years. Most of engineers which includes a whole host of disciplines from sanitation, rivers to construction are now working abroad because of the demand for these skills abroad. Civil engineering is booming in the UK thanks to numerous government contracts widening motorways, flood defences, sewage and water treatment.

A qualified experienced engineer are rarely out of work which is more than you can say for management. Managers often have very limited skills and lets face it there is a reason why they are not doing the actual job...they are crap at it.

I'm a tradesmen and at nearly 50 I have never thought about promotion while I can make 3 times what a managers earns pushing paper. Trades men move to management when they are too old for the tools or they are simply crap at the job. One of my neighbours who owns his own civil engineering company pays his digger drivers more than what most graduates earn at management level. As for a skilled engineer..expect to earn at least 40,000 pa for a 37 hour week, company car etc etc.

This country is about to learn the reality of not investing in engineering. Engineering is highly skilled, highly paid and should be given more respect. Given my time again it would have been my career choice.

[ken_ichikawa]

Its bizzare, in that the MEng is considered to be one of the hardest qualifications you can ever get but it is looked down upon as below somebody like an estate agent.

A decade ago I would have loved to be an engineer as I love to build and modify things, but then I saw the appaulling pay people get, I know a guy who works in a small engineering firm in Leeds he makes £6.20/h. When they make custom bike parts and custom cast items.

EDIT

I know another guy though, his job is a desk job, in that he sits and redesigns parts, shaving 0.00003p off the cost of production, not much of a saving but when those parts are used 100000000 million times it makes a fair big saving.

Edited December 27, 2009 by ken_ichikawa

[Guest tbatst2000]

I know many British engineers who've had great careers and are really pleased that they chose to study such a difficult yet interesting subject at university and spend the following 4 to 5 years studying to get chartered. Every single one of them now works overseas and has no plan to return.

[dubsie]

Its bizzare, in that the MEng is considered to be one of the hardest qualifications you can ever get but it is looked down upon as below somebody like an estate agent.

A decade ago I would have loved to be an engineer as I love to build and modify things, but then I saw the appaulling pay people get, I know a guy who works in a small engineering firm in Leeds he makes £6.20/h. When they make custom bike parts and custom cast items.

Big difference in making a part for a bike to making sure that a sea defence will be strong enough to cope with the worst possible storm, or that a nuclear power plant will be safe. What you are talking about is engineering but also bordering manufacturing.,,,,but I argee though should at least be on £15 ph.

I'm in the trades and a couple of weeks ago my wife let slip while away on a hen night how much I earn to one of her friends. They made it very evident that they were disgusted that I earned more working with my hands then her husband did working as a manager for a large credit card company. Worst still I'm home every day by 3.00pm yet he works 6 days a week and has his holidays interupted by phone calls.

There are too many managers,sales exectutives, project managers etc etc in this country. We need to start working again.

[porca misèria]

God you talk some crap. Engineers are still some of the highest paid professionals in the job market

Data point. The girlfriend's big brother was a chartered engineer. Then in his mid-thirties he re-trained as a lawyer. Started practicing law, and immediately earned three times more as a newly-qualified lawyer than he had as a highly qualified and experienced engineer.

Those engineers who earn serious money in UK industry tend to be the ones who have abandoned engineering work and moved into "suit" careers, like management or marketing. The only good money I've made is when I've worked for US companies, who respect us rather more.

[what]

does anyone on this website know anything or do most people here talk crap.

Edited December 27, 2009 by what

[scepticus]

The impoverishment of engineers is about to end.

Somehow we have forgotten that engineers run our society from top to bottom and that most all wealth creation (service or manufacturing) is based on technology.

All the HD TVs and mobile gizmos that powered the recent consumer boom are underpinned by enginerers.

Most of the engineers that created this stuff are over 40 now and need replacing completely over the next 20 years as boomers retire and the paucity of new young engineers comes to light, not only here but in asia too.

Financial wasters like tamara will see wealth transferred from people like her to people like me, who know how to actually make and maintain useful things.

The best placed in the next 30 years are those who have both the engineering/science and management/biz admin skills.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

Good managers, like good salesman, are very rare.

Good technicians are ten-a-penny these days. It's why our company tries to promote technical graduates into these other roles.

[dubsie]

Is there a contradiction here ?

No, I said at least. Lots of engineers earn well in excess of this and if you think 40,000 is a poor wage then you are deluded my friend. Lots of graduates with 5 years experience are now earning less than 30,000 pa in management roles...working 50 hours plus and paid no overtime. Engineers get paid extra for every hour they work....often huge bonus packages and lets not forget very rewarding and interesting work.

I know of an envrironmental engineer who earns in excess of £126,000 pa working the British arm of a large german company. He lives in Worksop and has no mortgage gets 6 weeks paid holiday and has been around the world with his work.

Another engineer who works for Prologis earns close to £150,000

Hardly poor pay

[scepticus]

Data point. The girlfriend's big brother was a chartered engineer. Then in his mid-thirties he re-trained as a lawyer. Started practicing law, and immediately earned three times more as a newly-qualified lawyer than he had as a highly qualified and experienced engineer.

Those engineers who earn serious money in UK industry tend to be the ones who have abandoned engineering work and moved into "suit" careers, like management or marketing. The only good money I've made is when I've worked for US companies, who respect us rather more.

I make enough money as an engineer to end up paying most of my salary in top rate tax.

The discipline does matter, but as I said above it will matter less as the bommer engineers who have been quietly running the technical infrastructure and innovation in our economy retire over the next 30 years.

The geeks, not the lawyers and other parasites, will inherit as the reality of a labour constrained economy comes to fruition.

[ScrewsNutsandBolts]

The worst ever pub crawl I attended at uni was the Engineers one. My perception of that lot then was: very intelligent and capable within the discipline, but the majority were stunningly inept socially. Since then I have met some good engineers who also happen to be good managers, but I suspect they may be in the minority.

I agree that a lot of engineers probably start university with pretty poor social skills, and studying on such a male dominated course doesn't really help with socialising with the opposite sex. Having said that I think most engineers are pretty normal by the time they have worked in the real world for a few years, and I think their skills are very transferable into project management roles.

The biggest problem in the UK is the poor image that engineering has, and the relatively poor salaries that engineers command (I say this in respect to other professionals, such as medicine, law, accounting, etc. I think the blame here lies with people like the Engineering Council and IMechE who are tuly hopeless when it comes to PR, and the frequent misuse of the term engineer in the UK. Look at Germany as an example where engineers are well thought of and well paid, and where the country benefits hugely from the its successful engineering industry...

[what]

I agree that a lot of engineers probably start university with pretty poor social skills, and studying on such a male dominated course doesn't really help with socialising with the opposite sex. Having said that I think most engineers are pretty normal by the time they have worked in the real world for a few years, and I think their skills are very transferable into project management roles.

The biggest problem in the UK is the poor image that engineering has, and the relatively poor salaries that engineers command (I say this in respect to other professionals, such as medicine, law, accounting, etc. I think the blame here lies with people like the Engineering Council and IMechE who are tuly hopeless when it comes to PR, and the frequent misuse of the term engineer in the UK. Look at Germany as an example where engineers are well thought of and well paid, and where the country benefits hugely from the its successful engineering industry...

agree

Edited December 27, 2009 by what

[dubsie]

Data point. The girlfriend's big brother was a chartered engineer. Then in his mid-thirties he re-trained as a lawyer. Started practicing law, and immediately earned three times more as a newly-qualified lawyer than he had as a highly qualified and experienced engineer.

Those engineers who earn serious money in UK industry tend to be the ones who have abandoned engineering work and moved into "suit" careers, like management or marketing. The only good money I've made is when I've worked for US companies, who respect us rather more.

I know of solicitors who earn less than 30,000 it all depends on what you specialise in...same applies to engineering. Some medical engineers earn huge amounts of money....but look at the facts.

As a career engineering is still a good one in comparison to joining a graduate scheme with some humanities degreee. There are less and less jobs to support a growing number of graduates with overly high expectations. A degree means nothing unless in it linked with a profession.

[A_Landlord]

Data point. The girlfriend's big brother was a chartered engineer. Then in his mid-thirties he re-trained as a lawyer. Started practicing law, and immediately earned three times more as a newly-qualified lawyer than he had as a highly qualified and experienced engineer.

Those engineers who earn serious money in UK industry tend to be the ones who have abandoned engineering work and moved into "suit" careers, like management or marketing. The only good money I've made is when I've worked for US companies, who respect us rather more.

Go train & work in the oil industry as a Reservoir or Production Engineer ... rates of +£850/day for long term contracts (+£200k/year) . When lay-offs come around its the engineers that are last to be released.

Engineers are very respected in the oil industry - although there may be some foreign assignments, so if you want to come back to your home each night then it may not be the career for you.

[ken_ichikawa]

A degree means nothing unless in it linked with a profession.

And then it can actually be a HUGE negative, in that employers know for a fact you need to work for them for X years to get your full charter and treat you like a virtual slave, 8K starting salaries , urgh never want to go back there again.

[dubsie]

You just said in an earlier post that you would like to aspire to something in your next life that I have achieved over 20 years ago fro what its worth.

You then go on to tell me about how it is on my side of the fence, maybe someone else is deluded ?

I'm not an engineer, I'm in the trades...huge difference. There difference is they have a career and I have a well paid job. If I take promotion then I take a 30,000 pay cut but for a civil engineer it could be a 20,000 pay rise. My projects are worth max 30,000...an engineer could be handling a project worth billions. You get paid for what you produce and how much margin there is. A good engineer could save you billions or cost you a project.

[Guest absolutezero]

Big difference in making a part for a bike to making sure that a sea defence will be strong enough to cope with the worst possible storm, or that a nuclear power plant will be safe. What you are talking about is engineering but also bordering manufacturing.,,,,but I argee though should at least be on £15 ph.

I'm in the trades and a couple of weeks ago my wife let slip while away on a hen night how much I earn to one of her friends. They made it very evident that they were disgusted that I earned more working with my hands then her husband did working as a manager for a large credit card company. Worst still I'm home every day by 3.00pm yet he works 6 days a week and has his holidays interupted by phone calls.

There are too many managers,sales exectutives, project managers etc etc in this country. We need to start working again.

Did they stamp their feet?

[chunkymunky]

No, I said at least. Lots of engineers earn well in excess of this and if you think 40,000 is a poor wage then you are deluded my friend. Lots of graduates with 5 years experience are now earning less than 30,000 pa in management roles...working 50 hours plus and paid no overtime. Engineers get paid extra for every hour they work....often huge bonus packages and lets not forget very rewarding and interesting work.

I know of an envrironmental engineer who earns in excess of £126,000 pa working the British arm of a large german company. He lives in Worksop and has no mortgage gets 6 weeks paid holiday and has been around the world with his work.

Another engineer who works for Prologis earns close to £150,000

Hardly poor pay

Overtime? Where? Nowhere I've worked since '97. Time in-lieu / flexitime maybe, certainly no overtime. Maybe the companies I've been working at are too small...