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All New Build Housing To Be Zero Carbon By 2016


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I hadn't given this issue much consideration, and I wonder if anyone else has. All new builds to be zero carbon in Britain by 2016? That's quite a target.

We already know how to build zero carbon houses today. In fact you can order them as prefabs and have them constructed in a few days.

And while most will say it won't be met, we have to assume it will be met eventually. The prevailing wisdom is these homes are 40% more expensive to build than conventional housing. And right there you've got an impact on the housing market. 2016 is not far away folks.

It's far to far away. 6 more years of building shoddy houses which will have to be retrofitted with better insulation at great expense at a later date. I assume that our corrupt overlords are delaying the introduction so their backers in the building industry get a chance to shift their existing land banks at a much higher profit.

There's so much to this. Those who argue land costs are the housing build cost may say actual build costs mean little. On the other hand, 40% extra build cost is not going to magically disappear. I wonder what the impact will be on non-zero carbon homes? Will they become undesirable bad investments? The market could be turned on it's head.

These houses will obviously save you money and remove the risk of energy price increases. So yes they will be worth more than the equivalent non-zero carbon house. Assuming the supply of credit is fixed then the value of non-zero carbon houses will go down.

(Didn't watch the video, power cut means I'm using a 2g modem )

Edited by cheesypeas
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global warming con = excuse to raise price of everything

Carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere are rising.

Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas.

Everything else being equal, the planet will get warmer.

Just very basic physics, where's the con?

Will it raise the price of everything?

Doubtful: since most people already spend all they have.

New houses will be a little bit more expensive, old houses will get cheaper, new cars will cost the same, old cars get a lot cheaper. etc.

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Unless you have family ties, you are probably stuck with Eurozone, US, Canada or Auz.

I am not sure what the current entry restrictions are like, although I think it is usually education/skills based. Basic degree, no criminal record, skill set required in the country (taking a forklift truck drivers course for example if that is on the list).

The other option is transfer within a company.. I know several who have relocated to the US, although confess this wouldn't be my first choice.

I don't look too closely TBH as I have ties to South/Central America and that would tick most of the boxes for me.

[ Edit to add: apologies for dragging OT ]

odd, that, nazis and other criminals seem to relocate no problem.

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Good point, the best way to pass any countries entry criteria is having absolutely oodles of ill-gotten gains!

My colleague refers to this process as using the "ways and means" legislation.

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If they made triple glazing compulsory for new build this would immediately create a manufacturing base for it. As well as new build this would make available TG for refurbishing older buildings

When I looked into triple glazing the cost was astronomical because it basically had to be imported or made specially.

I did read that triple glazing has a marginal reduction in energy costs, compared to good double glazing in this country. If you include the embodied energy, it may well be negative.

On triple glazing

Feist produced a table showing what the temperature differences were close to different forms of glazing when the internal temperature is designed to maintain at around 21°C and the external temperature drops to —5°C.

• next to a single glazed window, the adjacent temperature is around 1°C

• next to a double glazed window (2000 vintage), the adjacent temperature is around 11°C

• next to an all bells-n-whistles low-e double glazed window, the adjacent temperature is 16°C

• next to a triple glazed window, with a centre pane U value of just 0.65, the temperature is 18°C.

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I did read that triple glazing has a marginal reduction in energy costs, compared to good double glazing in this country. If you include the embodied energy, it may well be negative

Probably right if you compare bad triple glazing with good double glazing, surely more useful having a like for like comparison.

Double Glazed (6mm K Glass / Argon cavity/ 6mm clearfloat)

U-value = 1.5W/m2K

Triple Glazed (6mm K glass / Argon Cavity / 6mm clearfloat/ Argon cavity / 6mm Clearfloat)

U Value 1.1 W/m2K

Approx 25% inprovement :)

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Probably right if you compare bad triple glazing with good double glazing, surely more useful having a like for like comparison.

Double Glazed (6mm K Glass / Argon cavity/ 6mm clearfloat)

U-value = 1.5W/m2K

Triple Glazed (6mm K glass / Argon Cavity / 6mm clearfloat/ Argon cavity / 6mm Clearfloat)

U Value 1.1 W/m2K

Approx 25% inprovement :)

my single glazed main living room warms up beautifully in the winter sun...my double glazed bedroom on the same wall needs the heating on.

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Probably right if you compare bad triple glazing with good double glazing, surely more useful having a like for like comparison.

Double Glazed (6mm K Glass / Argon cavity/ 6mm clearfloat)

U-value = 1.5W/m2K

Triple Glazed (6mm K glass / Argon Cavity / 6mm clearfloat/ Argon cavity / 6mm Clearfloat)

U Value 1.1 W/m2K

Approx 25% inprovement :)

My figures are from "Mr Passivhaus" himself. The problem with quoting relative improvements is that if you already at low figures, the percentage improvement looks good, but the absolute improvement may be minimal.

From the figures you quote, 42 W loss for a delta of 14C for the double glazed 2m^2 window, and 30.8W for triple, a saving of about 11W, which isn't a great deal in the course of things, certainly not enough to make up the added cost of production. 14C is the average indoor-outdoor delta for January (6-8C over most of UK in 2008 according to the met office). And this doesn't account for any solar gain the window might contribute.

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no way they can get direct zero fossil fuel consumption.

they will ofcourse do the cost effective energy reductions like insulation etc but not more than that.

what they are likely to do is subsidise wind farms instead.

that is to say, a developer builds 500 houses consuming about 8-10 million kWh of energy and poweres that with 2 BIG wind turbines.

of course those homes will be using fossil fuels when the wind is not blowing but on net they would be zero carbon.

that would cost the developer about £30,000 per house.

the problem is that the margin on a house isnt that high, back in 2007 the big builders were making £10-15k profit per house. 2008 was near break even for the better builders and losses for the not so good ones. so even in a boom time it isnt affordable.

what is likely to happen is that developers pass this cost onto the land, so building land gets cheaper. however building land on average costs a developer about £40k a plot so knocking £30k off is going to be very very very dificult.

oh and BTW if they do take this method, which is the only real way they can do it, the homes energy bills will be not much less than a normal houses.

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I did read that triple glazing has a marginal reduction in energy costs, compared to good double glazing in this country. If you include the embodied energy, it may well be negative.

On triple glazing

I know glass has relatively high embodied energy by mass however from what I recall an extra pane of glass itself adds little to the overall cost of an installed window.

The manufacturing facilities are the same

The frame itself is the same (perhaps slightly wider)

The installation costs are the same.

Also the accoustic properties of triple glazing are much enhanced because the mass of the barrier has been increased by 50%

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I know glass has relatively high embodied energy by mass however from what I recall an extra pane of glass itself adds little to the overall cost of an installed window.

The manufacturing facilities are the same

The frame itself is the same (perhaps slightly wider)

The installation costs are the same.

Also the accoustic properties of triple glazing are much enhanced because the mass of the barrier has been increased by 50%

but mr fascist we live in a relatively free country, where i can choose 1 plane of glass over the dictated 3 planes.

if that every changes to any great deal you have a lot more to worry about than energy efficiency.

you pay your money you make your choice, as it should be.

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My figures are from "Mr Passivhaus" himself. The problem with quoting relative improvements is that if you already at low figures, the percentage improvement looks good, but the absolute improvement may be minimal.

From the figures you quote, 42 W loss for a delta of 14C for the double glazed 2m^2 window, and 30.8W for triple, a saving of about 11W, which isn't a great deal in the course of things, certainly not enough to make up the added cost of production. 14C is the average indoor-outdoor delta for January (6-8C over most of UK in 2008 according to the met office). And this doesn't account for any solar gain the window might contribute.

If the saving is approx 5.5w / m2 and one assumes a 7 month heating season each m2 of glass saves 28kwh. Over a 30 year life thats 840kwh.

I would be interested to know the embodied energy in 1m2 of 6mm glass.

I suspect there is a saving albeit a small one.

fag packet calculation

Glass has a typical embodied energy of 25MJ / KG

Typical weight of 4000kg/m3

1m2 of 6mm weighs 24 kg

24x25mj /3.6mj = 167kwh per m2

Even with a doubling of weigh or embodied energy it would appear to be beneficial to fit triple - although a small benefit.

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but mr fascist we live in a relatively free country, where i can choose 1 plane of glass over the dictated 3 planes.

if that every changes to any great deal you have a lot more to worry about than energy efficiency.

you pay your money you make your choice, as it should be.

Yawn

I suppose you will be telling me next that Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and Germany are facist for having stringent building regulations....

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I know glass has relatively high embodied energy by mass however from what I recall an extra pane of glass itself adds little to the overall cost of an installed window.

The manufacturing facilities are the same

The frame itself is the same (perhaps slightly wider)

The installation costs are the same.

Also the accoustic properties of triple glazing are much enhanced because the mass of the barrier has been increased by 50%

As I said upthread, about 11W saved during a typical January on a 2m^2 window. I could probably save that by pulling the curtains at night ;)

Here is an authoritative study on glazing that showed in some circumstances, double glazing out-performing triple glazing, because of the higher solar gain of double glazing. What they fail to note, is because of the decreased transparency of triple-glazing, you need more window area for the same indoor light level. If you design to that criteria, you might find triple-glazing considerably worse than double!

Energy and cost analysis of double and triple glazing

Also, triple glazing has double the seal length. That doubles it's probable failure rate. The failure of a seal causes loss of the inert gas and condensation in between the panes. I have a friend whose small business is entirely devoted to remedial work on badly-installed glazing, which is the no. 1 cause of premature failure. He sees no signs of improvement in the installation business.

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Yawn

I suppose you will be telling me next that Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and Germany are facist for having stringent building regulations....

there is a spectrum and the stronger the regulation the more fascist the regime

regulation after all is force to do what is dictated to you in fear of reprisal by someone who think they know better.

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If the saving is approx 5.5w / m2 and one assumes a 7 month heating season each m2 of glass saves 28kwh. Over a 30 year life thats 840kwh.

I would be interested to know the embodied energy in 1m2 of 6mm glass.

I suspect there is a saving albeit a small one.

fag packet calculation

Glass has a typical embodied energy of 25MJ / KG

Typical weight of 4000kg/m3

1m2 of 6mm weighs 24 kg

24x25mj /3.6mj = 167kwh per m2

Even with a doubling of weigh or embodied energy it would appear to be beneficial to fit triple - although a small benefit.

Not just the glass Kurt, but also the coatings, the inert gas, and the frame. And I did say 2m^2.....

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Yawn

I suppose you will be telling me next that Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and Germany are facist for having stringent building regulations....

They all have significantly colder winters. That justifies the triple glazing .

Just found the embodied energy costs - it's estimated to be 151.9 kWh/m2 for DG, and 232.5 kWh/m2 for TG, so 161 kWh difference between DG and TG for a 2m^2 window. That's about 20 January's worth of energy, or probably decades if you pull the curtains at night.

I can't cut and paste the conclusion of that study (made in the Netherlands, where climate is similar, perhaps a little colder in the winter). So here it is longhand (my emphasis):

In many cases more energy and emission reductions can be achieved by other means, such as better wall insulation and closing of infiltration gaps, than by applying triple glazing. This means that making triple glazing mandatory will force the usage of a solution that may not be as effective as other solutions, or not beneficial at all, whilst still incurring costs, hazards and extra life cycle energy investments
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I did read that triple glazing has a marginal reduction in energy costs, compared to good double glazing in this country. If you include the embodied energy, it may well be negative.

I live in Finland where pretty well all windows are double glazed. I've never seen or heard of triple glazing. Compared to UK double glazing the gap betwen the two panes is much bigger, several inches.

Windows are often designed so that you can open on hinges the inner panel and then the outer panel. Dead flies and stuff accumulate over the years between the panes so they can be easily opened for cleaning. The panels have sort of keyholes and you insert a metal key and turn to open.

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As I said upthread, about 11W saved during a typical January on a 2m^2 window. I could probably save that by pulling the curtains at night ;)

Here is an authoritative study on glazing that showed in some circumstances, double glazing out-performing triple glazing, because of the higher solar gain of double glazing. What they fail to note, is because of the decreased transparency of triple-glazing, you need more window area for the same indoor light level. If you design to that criteria, you might find triple-glazing considerably worse than double!

Energy and cost analysis of double and triple glazing

Also, triple glazing has double the seal length. That doubles it's probable failure rate. The failure of a seal causes loss of the inert gas and condensation in between the panes. I have a friend whose small business is entirely devoted to remedial work on badly-installed glazing, which is the no. 1 cause of premature failure. He sees no signs of improvement in the installation business.

Thanks for the link. I will send it to my uncle who is currently in the process of designing a low energy house.

His design is interesting - its in the conventional Uk design. However the walls are constructed om a 100mm blockwork inner leaf - for accoustic and thermal mass properties. On the outside is 300mm of polyurethane block which is then clad with either siberian larch of WR cedar.

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there is a spectrum and the stronger the regulation the more fascist the regime

regulation after all is force to do what is dictated to you in fear of reprisal by someone who think they know better.

I knew I could rely upon you to turn a debate about Building Regs into a name calling competition.

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