Generation Y What Can We Do?

[Guest pioneer31]

Stop expecting to buy a house when you're in your 20's?

I didn't and they were cheaper then

Neither did my father.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

Stop expecting to buy a house when you're in your 20's?

I didn't and they were cheaper then

Neither did my father.

I don't see why buying in your 20s is unreasonable. I bought at 25. The problem is affordability.

Edited December 20, 2009 by mikelivingstone

[Greg Bowman]

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say but:

You've not spoken to 'Goat' have you?

He says accountancy is immune from wage drops because it can't be outsourced as people aren't happy with the results....

On a more serious note, globalisation IS reducing wages yet (some?) people still expect the price of houses to increase....

Can someone explain the logic behind that please?

I would of thought it is quite straight forward. By many measures we are still a very rich, secure and stable country. In many respects very attractive to succesfull global citizens ( have you have spoken to a successful japanese career man? They can't believe how cheap our accomodation and cost of living is)

I have always thought it quite quaint that semi literate averagely hard working people expect to buy houses in the same way their parents did.

They love a cheap shirt or car built abroad but haven't really worked it through.

They will be demand ( good areas etc) just not from uk nationals

Edited December 19, 2009 by Greg Bowman

[campervanman]

Make sure the spawn finish their degrees. Give them any stuff I may have remaining of any value after the desperate gubmint catchpolls have scoured the realm. Tell them never to darken my door again, maybe go and doss with one of my little brothers (who live outside these poxy feudal isles).

Take up smoking again, and finally find time to perfect the homebrew.

Cackle a lot, in a toothless, greybearded way.

Or:

Sitting on a park bench

eyeing little girls with bad intent.

[Wires 74]

You NEED a Tory government that supports people who work, NOT a Labour government who are taxing every worker even more by raising N.I while increasing benefits by 1.5% for dole bludgers and a 2.5% increase for pensioners. Shows their priority is to punish workers and reward non-workers.

With all due respect are you on smack ? - not only are you trying to tell us to vote for a Party which thinks Kirsty Allsop is a suitable housing spokeswoman but your use of the word ` dole-bludgers ` exposes you as an all -round Tory tosser ...

Just my opinion of course .

Edited December 19, 2009 by Wires 74

[denna]

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say but:

You've not spoken to 'Goat' have you?

He says accountancy is immune from wage drops because it can't be outsourced as people aren't happy with the results....

On a more serious note, globalisation IS reducing wages yet (some?) people still expect the price of houses to increase....

Can someone explain the logic behind that please?

Accountacy wages dropped approximately ten years ago.

When we compete in the global markets we are playing limbo with our quality of life....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/picturesoftheday/6217706/Pictures-of-the-day-22-September-2009.html

...lets be honest here, India and China are lowering the bar, and we have no chance of being happily getting underneath it.

[Alba]

Generation Y, the choice is yours, the red pill or the blue pill?

[Guest absolutezero]

Generation Y, the choice is yours, the red pill or the blue pill?

Or the razor blade....?

[ZeroSumGame]

Or:

Sitting on a park bench

eyeing little girls with bad intent.

Aqualung my friend - don't you start away uneasy.

You poor old sod, you know it's only me................

[adwzie]

Accountacy wages dropped approximately ten years ago.

When we compete in the global markets we are playing limbo with our quality of life....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/picturesoftheday/6217706/Pictures-of-the-day-22-September-2009.html

...lets be honest here, India and China are lowering the bar, and we have no chance of being happily getting underneath it.

What are you basing this on? The market rate for a 2 years post qualified accountant (ie a very junior accountant) in Central London is £55k plus bonus which seems to be at odds with some of the claims made on here. True, this buys you a lot less house than an accountant ten or twenty years ago could have bought but this because of ludicrously high house prices rather than low wages.

On the subject of outsourcing, the day to day processing type accounting roles have already been shipped to India. If the experience of my major corporate employer is anything to go by, the management would love to move the whole accounting function to India and one day I think they'll try. However, this is a much harder thing to do. We are many years from this yet. In the meantime, skills shortages and wage inflation in India may well make the idea less attractive.

[denna]

Job: Trainee Management Accountant

Salary: GBP23000

Location: London

Posted: 21/12/2009

Contract: Permanent

Employer: Goodman Masson Recruitment

Reference: KDT1207a

Sector: Media / Entertainment

Closing date: 20/01/2010

An exciting global publishing brand is currently recruiting for a dynamic and hard working trainee management accountant to join their growing team.

Essential criteria for applicants:

- minimum of 2:1 degree from a "red brick" university

- experience within a finance team

- ambitious, driven and friendly attitude

The role itself will be sitting within an experienced management accounting team on the digital side of the business and duties will include assisting the financial controller with the production of the management pack, budgeting, forecasting and helping with year end accounting processes and audits.

This is an excellent opportunity for strong finance and business graduates to prove themselves within a competitive market and a challenging role. Full study support is offered in addition to a competitive basic salary.

This is a trainee? Surely after recieving a DEGREE then you are trained? 3 Years more of education costing £3200 per year?

http://www.manchester.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/search2010/bysubject/course/?code=05150

People with an A-level in accountancy were more than able to do this job not so long ago, and the wage was much higher.

Yup, then then there is the real snag.. having to go to London more than once in a decade. How anyone can live there without being a prozac junkie is beyond me.

Not worth it, even for a whopping salary increase like this.

I know its hard, but please try and imagine that there are people existing outside of London.

[Ronaldo McDonaldo]

Or the razor blade....?

...or just sit at your PC copying and pasting links to websites that might indicate that the end truly is nigh, whilst crying into your keyboard because the world is just not fair. Oh wait, that's what seems to be happening already. Don't worry, I'm sure your Uncle Gordon will read this if you whinge long enough and all that you could ever want will be handed to you on a plate. Generation Y? How does that even work? The age bracket overlaps with that of Generation X so someone like me ends up being in both Generations. Although you won't catch me (touch wood) stacking shelves by day and sniveling at their computer by night whilst living with their parents.

I just had to register to say that, sorry I couldn't resist.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Ronaldo McDonaldo

[Guest absolutezero]

...or just sit at your PC copying and pasting links to websites that might indicate that the end truly is nigh, whilst crying into your keyboard because the world is just not fair. Oh wait, that's what seems to be happening already. Don't worry, I'm sure your Uncle Gordon will read this if you whinge long enough and all that you could ever want will be handed to you on a plate. Generation Y? How does that even work? The age bracket overlaps with that of Generation X so someone like me ends up being in both Generations. Although you won't catch me (touch wood) stacking shelves by day and sniveling at their computer by night whilst living with their parents.

I just had to register to say that, sorry I couldn't resist.

Sounds like you need the razor blade more than anyone else....

[Misanthrope]

...or just sit at your PC copying and pasting links to websites that might indicate that the end truly is nigh, whilst crying into your keyboard because the world is just not fair. Oh wait, that's what seems to be happening already. Don't worry, I'm sure your Uncle Gordon will read this if you whinge long enough and all that you could ever want will be handed to you on a plate. Generation Y? How does that even work? The age bracket overlaps with that of Generation X so someone like me ends up being in both Generations. Although you won't catch me (touch wood) stacking shelves by day and sniveling at their computer by night whilst living with their parents.

I just had to register to say that, sorry I couldn't resist.

Don't, for one minute, think that you are immune. Sunshine.

[Stars]

They love a cheap shirt or car built abroad but haven't really worked it through.

I think it is you that haven't thought it through; it has little to do with cheap shirts

[adwzie]

This is a trainee? Surely after recieving a DEGREE then you are trained? 3 Years more of education costing £3200 per year?

http://www.manchester.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/search2010/bysubject/course/?code=05150

People with an A-level in accountancy were more than able to do this job not so long ago, and the wage was much higher.

Yup, then then there is the real snag.. having to go to London more than once in a decade. How anyone can live there without being a prozac junkie is beyond me.

Not worth it, even for a whopping salary increase like this.

I know its hard, but please try and imagine that there are people existing outside of London.

Denna, this is an entry level role paying £23k. Your earlier post said that wages for senior accountants had fallen to £16k - £20k.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what evidence you have for wages dropping but your numbers don't seem very consistent.

[ken_ichikawa]

Denna, this is an entry level role paying £23k. Your earlier post said that wages for senior accountants had fallen to £16k - £20k.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what evidence you have for wages dropping but your numbers don't seem very consistent.

There is a ceiling in Manchester of 22-26K, I noticed this start of 2008, when one of the partners accidentally left the wages book out and everybody had a look FCCAs in Manchester barely earned more than 20K.

There are several cons for this:

#1 desparate lower accountants, in that accountancy is one of those work for 3 years for somebody else type roles, hence you get tons of graduates willing to work for next to nothing this suppresses wages badly , I started out on 8K (less when I was in the probationary period).

#2 Small firms cannot survive and there are regular mergers, my city centre Manchester firm ate 5 other firms in the space of a year. Less competition = less control over pay.

#3 Outsourcing this is a huge bane on the industry, full qualified ACCA types in Pakistan and India will work for £2 an hour, they did not used to be much cop making mega mistakes, my last job they were incredibly good would do jobs from £3-£5 an hour work much faster than you (that £3-£5 would hire 4-6 accountants in Pakistan) and their work was flawless, all that had to be done was the analysis.

#4 Cartelling, Accountants in all areas in effect run a big cartel, I know because I am familiar with all the recruiters of all the accountancy firms (internal ones). They get together once a year and all agree to set a maximum level of increase. Which is always small and agree not to poach each other's staff. People here are also blackballed so they do not get hired by other firms if they mess with one firm (its unofficial and off the books but my mate works in the hotel they meet at and a mate who is an accountant was invited for one when he nearly made partner).

[adwzie]

There is a ceiling in Manchester of 22-26K, I noticed this start of 2008, when one of the partners accidentally left the wages book out and everybody had a look FCCAs in Manchester barely earned more than 20K.

There are several cons for this:

#1 desparate lower accountants, in that accountancy is one of those work for 3 years for somebody else type roles, hence you get tons of graduates willing to work for next to nothing this suppresses wages badly , I started out on 8K (less when I was in the probationary period).

#2 Small firms cannot survive and there are regular mergers, my city centre Manchester firm ate 5 other firms in the space of a year. Less competition = less control over pay.

#3 Outsourcing this is a huge bane on the industry, full qualified ACCA types in Pakistan and India will work for £2 an hour, they did not used to be much cop making mega mistakes, my last job they were incredibly good would do jobs from £3-£5 an hour work much faster than you (that £3-£5 would hire 4-6 accountants in Pakistan) and their work was flawless, all that had to be done was the analysis.

#4 Cartelling, Accountants in all areas in effect run a big cartel, I know because I am familiar with all the recruiters of all the accountancy firms (internal ones). They get together once a year and all agree to set a maximum level of increase. Which is always small and agree not to poach each other's staff. People here are also blackballed so they do not get hired by other firms if they mess with one firm (its unofficial and off the books but my mate works in the hotel they meet at and a mate who is an accountant was invited for one when he nearly made partner).

Ken,

These are all good points. I would add though that:

1. The starting salaries for most accounting roles are above the average wage for that area. Bear in mind that these aren't salaries for accountants - they're salaries for people with degrees who would like to train to become accountants.

2. Taking both the merger / cartel point together - these are both true but I'm not sure that the effect is to push wages down. Maybe for starting positions but for more senior / partner roles they almost certainly push wages up. This is just another example of the winner takes all route the country is going down.

3. The guys in India that I work with are good at what they do (which is basically processing and data entry) and very hard working but as you say they don't do any value adding analysis. This is the sort of higher end type work that is more valuable and we should be looking to keep in this country. I'm not sure this is likely to be outsourced any time soon as the skills just don't exist in India and are much harder to acquire than what they've learned to do so far. Ultimately partners and FD's (ie the decision makers) don't want to move to India so there's a limit to how far up the chain outsourcing will go.

[Guest absolutezero]

What choices do we have, what can we do about the current situation?

To answer the question, we wait.

[All Seeing Eye]

I'd like a lot more council houses to be built for the likes of me; a place where a young couple (both on low wages) can go and start life together. Lower rents and secure tenancies would make life easier.

So what you really want is for the government to pay most of your rent. Except by the government we mean tax payers. So you want people who earn more than you to pay for you to have a house while being unable to afford one themselves. The trouble now is everyone is relying on either the government or the lottery as the only way to escape as you are no longer able to make it on your own.

The disabled (yer all FOUR million of them!) and the workshy are the new elite. Benefits are recession proof and most are now better off in terms of housing and (lack of) job security than those who work to subsiside them. If you want to progress, either go to Oxbridge and become a banker OR become a bit of a criminal and be embraced by the system that will fast track you (you poor misunderstood soul you) into free housing and free everything and look after you for ever thereafter. The middle earners who pay for the sub-class to progress but cannot afford to progress themselves are treading water, sleeping, ageing, in a walking coma and that's about all.

[All Seeing Eye]

With all due respect are you on smack ? - not only are you trying to tell us to vote for a Party which thinks Kirsty Allsop is a suitable housing spokeswoman but your use of the word ` dole-bludgers ` exposes you as an all -round Tory tosser ...

Just my opinion of course .

Well then vote Labour AGAIN, your choice. Clearly 1.5 TRILLION in public debt by 2014 does not bother you. Maybe you should run the country and make work avoidance even more attractive than it already is, give the 'dole bludgers' even more money. My question to you though is now the debt bubble pyramid scheme has burst how exactly are you going to pay for it? Ahhh just keep printing more money like Mad Gordon?

At some point the economic reality check of either a Tory government or complete bankruptcy under Labour, leading to unpaid benefits/pensions etc is going to hit this country and namecalling won't help you, you naive, pipe dreaming, Lefty Loser

We vote Labour, they bankrupt the country (even after a 10 year world boom, how do they manage it yet again!)

So we then vote Tory, they stop spending money we don't have and everyone hates them, blaming them for all the problems Labour created.

Eventually after 18 years they fix the country and by then people have forgotten who actually created the problem in the first place and re-elect Labour and the cycle begins all over again.

Anyone over 40 who STILL votes Labour is either a self preservationist on the public sector payroll in some high salaried invented job or has failed to make it in the private sector and through politics of envy wants to drag down those who have succeeded (IMHO that is BTW)

[Guest absolutezero]

At some point the economic reality check of either a Tory government or complete bankruptcy under Labour, leading to unpaid benefits/pensions etc is going to hit this country and namecalling won't help you, you naive, pipe dreaming, Lefty Loser

Did you do that on purpose or am I missing something in your post?

[PopGun]

I think it is you that haven't thought it through; it has little to do with cheap shirts

+1

No, it's because the young don't work hard enough to save that £30K deposit for that 1 bed slave box, that's the problem

Despite that only ten years ago, £30k would buy you a whole house. I've said it before and I'll say it again, people need to realize how much of a factor being born at the right time effects your life chances.

The hypocrisy and lack of empathy on this board is sickening at times. I wonder how many STR'ers who foolishly put savings into the Icelandic banks now expect Icelandic tax payers to refund their savings, whilst at the same time attacking the Government's QE stimulus folly?!?

[Beggar Thy Children]

At some point the economic reality check of either a Tory government or complete bankruptcy under Labour, leading to unpaid benefits/pensions etc is going to hit this country

I'm now rooting for the latter and I'll take my chances in the ensuing chaos. None of the main parties will allow a rebalancing to occur so it needs to be forced upon them.

Edited January 3, 2010 by I Crap In The Woods

[fryups]

Hi, well a very interesting thread this. can't say im hugely knowledgeable about this but thought i'd add my situation and 2 pennies and ask for any advice!

as a pre note, peoples rants about the different governments etc and who we're going to vote for, i personally don't see much difference between any of em, those who think the torries aren't going to raise taxes are deluded, we've a massive deficit which needs to paid very quickly else we'll loose our AAA rating and the sterling will crash leaving us all in the crapper. I cant see how the parties are going to separate their strategies for the election apart from their usual approach of bare faced lies which they hope we won't ( and don't) pull them up on later!

Anyway I very much agree with pepto's approach to life of living in as many different countries and actually living a fun and satisfying life instead of wasting away great portions of it in fear and frugal planning for the future ( obviously thou there has to be a point were you do plan!). What's the point in living if all you do is stay in a crappy flat and work for your entire life to reach that next slightly nicer house down the road?

Anyway, my little rant over. My situation if people could advise is: I'm 26, have just finished my degree and post grad diploma in architecture and finally after 6 months searching have found a job in an architects practice. Now although the last 6 months has been very stressful (and poverty stricken ) I am glad of the experience because it make me appreciate my current situation even more, and I have plenty of friends who having studied for 6 years have no hope of finding an architecture job in this climate any time soon, or indeed any other as i found because all employers think we're over qualified for the job and would leave as soon as a better one presented itself! which is fair enough as we would!

I have to admit I have about £18,000 student debt and have spent most my money ( went to uni with £6000 savings from working gap year, earn't £14,000 in sandwich year) on fun, many holidays, trips and general life, however although some people on this thread would call me extravagant or not planning for the future I tend to think that I've had a great 6/7 years and have been all over the world, and wouldn't change it for anything. At this point i should point out i'm very fortunate enough that my parents covered my rent while at uni. I'm also not lazy as i have worked in one way or an other since i was about 12 on paper rounds, to MacDonalds, to supermarkets, bars, interior decorating and now architecture firms.

Anyway now i've got my job in North London, currently on a 20% pay cut (£20,000 instead of £25,000) so the firm can save money which hopefully will end in the next few months.- architects definitely do not earn as much as people think!! i'm taking my final quals and hopefully will be a fully fledged architect come this time next year which hopefully will mean a pay rise to around £33,000, my girlfriend is in the same situation being an architect etc. Where do people see mortgage rates etc going in the next few years as the fixed rates start for 2 years at 2% but then rise to upwards of 5-9% ? as you may tell i dont completely understand the mortgage industry!

on top of this my girlfriend and i are thinking of either continuing to rent for a couple of years or take the plunge to buy a house, we are very very fortunate that her father is fairly well off and may indeed provide us with a 40/50% deposit for the house. I know I'm in a very fortunate position compared to most people here but do we think a house crash is still going to come again, although prices are still ridiculous it seems to me that they will always be high as in this country we have limited land, limited houses, a growing population and people always will want houses?

many thanks for reading my rant