loginandtonic Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Cameron said, no doubt merely reflecting the nightmare we have sleepwalked into, that over the next parliament if he wins he will sit down and respectfully (his words) negotiate with the EU taking ... yes....up to FIVE YEARS to regain at least some of the powers (eg laws) we have let them have over us. Given that the EU started off as The EEC or Common Market whose main purpose was trade barrier removal + to set dairy produce prices!, how did we go from that to now where we seem to have to ask their permission for stuff? worse still, how did we get the kind of twit that will post on this thread saying that its ok and to worry about people in brussels running our lives without even asking our permission to do so is ok? when did our schools start churning out such dumbed down meatheads? http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/6/newsid_2499000/2499297.stm The 1975 "Should we stay in the EEC?" leaflet for The Referendum http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm from 1974/5:- WILL PARLIAMENT LOSE ITS POWER? Another anxiety expressed about Britain's membership of the Common Market is that Parliament could lose its supremacy, and we would have to obey laws passed by unelected 'faceless bureaucrats' sitting in their headquarters in Brussels. What are the facts? Fact No. 1 is that in the modern world even the Super Powers like America and Russia do not have complete freedom of action. Medium-sized nations like Britain are more and more subject to economic and political forces we cannot control on our own. A striking recent example of the impact of such forces is the way the Arab oil-producing nations brought about an energy and financial crisis not only in Britain but throughout a great part of the world. Since we cannot go it alone in the modern world, Britain has for years been a member of international groupings like the United Nations, NATO and the International Monetary Fund. Membership of such groupings imposes both rights and duties, but has not deprived us of our national identity, or changed our way of life. Membership of the Common Market also imposes new rights and duties on Britain, but does not deprive us of our national identity. To say that membership could force Britain to eat Euro-bread or drink Euro-beer is nonsense. Fact No. 2. No important new policy can be decided in Brussels or anywhere else without the consent of a British Minister answerable to a British Government and British Parliament. ------- thats down the toilet now and the Lisbon Treaty allows further powers to be given away at the simple ask of the EU (ratchet powers) The top decision-making body in the Market is the Council of Ministers, which is composed of senior Ministers representing each of the nine member governments. It is the Council of Ministers, and not the market's officials, who take the important decisions. These decisions can be taken only if all the members of the Council agree. The Minister representing Britain can veto any proposal for a new law or a new tax if he considers it to be against British interests. Ministers from the other Governments have the same right to veto. -------------- yes thats down the toilet too, no veto now. All the nine member countries also agree that any changes or additions to the Market Treaties must be acceptable to their own Governments and Parliaments. Remember: All the other countries in the Market today enjoy, like us, democratically elected Governments answerable to their own Parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would." Fact No. 3. The British Parliament in Westminster retains the final right to repeal the Act which took us into the Market on January 1, 1973. Thus our continued membership will depend on the continuing assent of Parliament. -------- it appears Cameron wishes to bring in an amendment or use this to do something about the loss of our Sovereign powers, will he keep his word if elected? The White Paper on the new Market terms recently presented to Parliament by the Prime Minister declares that through membership of the Market we are better able to advance and protect our national interests. This is the essence of sovereignty. .oh dear, didnt stick to it for long did they, and the UK govts havent had the democratic decency to even check with us again since. now we are told we have to sit down + negotiate with people in offices thousands of miles away for our right to decide our own destiny! yes, we have to ask permission for what we do in the UK! we are dominated by the EU, somehow they have managed to gain a final say on what we can + cant do, + its about to get potentially a lot more federal. we have given them what millions died to preserve! the right to rule the UK (and collect her taxes). it is an utter disgrace, second only to the appeasers on this forum who think that if they'll be all right or better off financially they can go along with it + get the linguaphone pack out the library. such are no better than the property ponzi VIs they regularly express spite for, in fact they're worse: happy to sell their country out for (a) a quiet appeasement life, or ( b ) worse still, their own selfish financial advantage how did we go from a self-governing Island world-respected with industry, respect for each other, decent quality of life, to a money-grubbing dog eats dog, dustbin of crime + civil liberty erosion? i think our dodgy politicians + their expenses claims tell you all you need to know. 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lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!) Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 how did we go from a self-governing Island world-respected with industry, respect for each other, decent quality of life, to a money-grubbing dog eats dog, dustbin of crime + civil liberty erosion? i think our dodgy politicians + their expenses claims tell you all you need to know. socialism took hold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loginandtonic Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 socialism took hold am not blaming it all on labour as it was heath who led the uk in to the eec + major had his hand in too, but i have only voted labour once in 1997 + never before or since + never again. i'd vote ukip now if it would make a difference but i fear it will be a wasted vote, i also am more alongside cameron's ideas of trading with europe but not ruled by europe, which you'd think anyone with a shred of common sense would see as the limit, but too many people think the eu will afford them breaks or protections which a standalone uk wouldnt. well if it does then you can be sure you'll be paying the eu for the privilege, theres owt for nowt in this world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!) Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 am not blaming it all on labour as it was heath who led the uk in to the eec + major had his hand in too, but i have only voted labour once in 1997 + never before or since + never again. i'd vote ukip now if it would make a difference but i fear it will be a wasted vote, i also am more alongside cameron's ideas of trading with europe but not ruled by europe, which you'd think anyone with a shred of common sense would see as the limit, but too many people think the eu will afford them breaks or protections which a standalone uk wouldnt. well if it does then you can be sure you'll be paying the eu for the privilege, theres owt for nowt in this world both parties and the people are to blame ukip to get us out no chance with the others unless uklp gets going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loginandtonic Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 both parties and the people are to blame agreed, i too have been too busy to notice until recently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Cameron said, no doubt merely reflecting the nightmare we have sleepwalked into, that over the next parliament if he wins he will sit down and respectfully (his words) negotiate with the EU taking ... yes....up to FIVE YEARS to regain at least some of the powers (eg laws) we have let them have over us. I have a better idea,when blair+bush's "crusade" really kicks off,why don't we just blockade gibraltar and let the EU army prove it's own worth under the leadership of the messiah.The meditteranean is nicely sealed and that theatre of war only leaves a couple of avenues of approach into mainland europe,that is via the latin states,who are in general more hostile to us than france. we'll just sit it out,by the time they've shed a few bodies in the meat grinder,and had to start paying for the war effort themselves,financially and morally they will be depleted and that puts us in a far stronger bartering position. in short,stop sneaking around in the shadows you pussies,it's time to put up or shut up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowflux Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 The bottom line is that we the UK can leave the EU framework at any time. If the EU framework does not provide any legal facility for a country to leave, then it is not a democracy. Who doesnt want to be part of a democracy hey? I should also add, whats the worst that can happen if the UK did leave? What will the EU do to the UK? Start a war against us? Economic sanctions? Anything else? I don't think the EU would do anything to the UK if we left, except that working and travelling in the EU would probably become more inconvenient. The main drawback would be that we'd still have to implement most of the EU directives (as Norway and Switzerland currently do) if we wanted to continue to participate in the single market, but we would have no say in their formulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagmire Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I don't think the EU would do anything to the UK if we left, except that working and travelling in the EU would probably become more inconvenient. The main drawback would be that we'd still have to implement most of the EU directives (as Norway and Switzerland currently do) if we wanted to continue to participate in the single market, but we would have no say in their formulation. I think the EU could actually become pretty spiteful economically. It wouldn't necessarily come from direct EU intervention, but more likely powerful people pulling strings to create high unemployment through big companies withdrawing UK operations. Various events would conspire to make it seem like Britains withdrawal was a terrible mistake. I'm convinced some of the economic events in Ireland may have been encouraged to scare Ireland into Lisbon ratification. I don't think theres any chance of Britain getting out now (unless the EU itself collapses somehow). Britain is too economically and politically ensnared. A USA style federal system I could just about tolerate, there is democracy and a reasonable level of transparency at every level of government. I find the EU's governing machinery to be very opaque and it simply doesn't seem to be accountable to the people. Is this Mandy's "post-democractic age" - I fear it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AuntJess Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I don't think the EU would do anything to the UK if we left, except that working and travelling in the EU would probably become more inconvenient. The main drawback would be that we'd still have to implement most of the EU directives (as Norway and Switzerland currently do) if we wanted to continue to participate in the single market, but we would have no say in their formulation. This seems to be the reason put forward to stay in the EU. To my mind we have been being p*ssed on from a great height ever since we joined, and propped up less successful countries than us. So what have we to lose, FGS? Time they pulled their finger out and stopped looking to "Nanny England " to do the honours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffneck Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 am not blaming it all on labour as it was heath who led the uk in to the eec + major had his hand in too, but i have only voted labour once in 1997 + never before or since + never again. i'd vote ukip now if it would make a difference but i fear it will be a wasted vote, i also am more alongside cameron's ideas of trading with europe but not ruled by europe, which you'd think anyone with a shred of common sense would see as the limit, but too many people think the eu will afford them breaks or protections which a standalone uk wouldnt. well if it does then you can be sure you'll be paying the eu for the privilege, theres owt for nowt in this world too late surely if cameron tries to leave europe they will impose all kind of trade sanctions on the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest P-Diddly Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altiero_Spinelli + http://centurean2.wordpress.com/2009/04/02/we-are-now-in-what-brussels-calls-a-post-democratic-eraone-man-one-vote/ + http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/3554154/Railroading-democracy.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KingCharles1st Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Lets face it gang- the Tories deserted their main reason for being. Once a lazy millionaire, always a lazy millionaire.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loginandtonic Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 thx for the comments, in agreement with me + not. The bottom line is that we the UK can leave the EU framework at any time. If the EU framework does not provide any legal facility for a country to leave, then it is not a democracy. the uk parliament i think can repeal some Act of 1972, communities act or something, + that takes us out of the eu. the problem i have is why we are 'playing the game' with them now to the extent that it can take years to negotiate what was rightfully ours before, to get 27 member states to agree etc etc, its a nonsense, the welfare of the british people + britain is a matter for british ministers + most important of all you + me to decide, not people in brussels even if a few around the table are brit ministers there. its just ridiculous, its gone too far. too late surely if cameron tries to leave europe they will impose all kind of trade sanctions on the UK cant someone in parliament set up a group to investigate very thoroughly what the actual financial + trade consequences are if we did leave the eu? surely someone who knows the ins / outs + isnt in the click there can provide some rational facts so we can see the nett loss or gain of repealing the Act + telling the eu we love you but we're not in love with you no need to be anti france or anti any eu, its not a matter of being xenophobic, its a matter of remembering who we are +dealing with the world on our own terms, not a slave to masters in another land, even if being that slave can be repealed. because who knows, the point may come where we no longer can repeal, they may pass some clause even in the lisbon treaty to that effect, and then what? they send the tanks in like what happened if you look to some of the soviet history? do they tell us we have no right to declare independence from them + start to send typhoons over to bomb us? yeah course it sounds stupid now, but a lot of things sound stupid before the build up to them happening. why even take the smallest chance of that happening, given the adversarial military history of britain with europe. just last night you had the french europe minister basically acting like a yob calling hague "autistic", i mean these are not people i want to go to bed with, they dont sound very nice to me. its actually pretty bad to say that yet the guardian seems to have neglected to disgrace the frenchman for that remark. OXFORD autism n noun Psychiatry a mental condition characterized by great difficulty in communicating with others and in using language and abstract concepts. DERIVATIVES autistic adjective & noun ORIGIN early 20th cent.: from Greek autos 'self' + -ism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wires 74 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 One has to stand back and admire the breathtaking hypocrisy of the Tories -after all who was in power exactly when The Treaty of Rome was signed or the Single Market treaty or Maastricht etc ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qetesuesi Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 am not blaming it all on labour as it was heath who led the uk in to the eec + major had his hand in too One PM stands out a mile by her absence from this hall of shame. Start the countdown for the firestorm of blind tribal hatred to erupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loginandtonic Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 One has to stand back and admire the breathtaking hypocrisy of the Tories -after all who was in power exactly when The Treaty of Rome was signed or the Single Market treaty or Maastricht etc ... heath + major, of course, their only slight defence is did they know how far it would go One PM stands out a mile by her absence from this hall of shame. Start the countdown for the firestorm of blind tribal hatred to erupt. as above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6538 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Cameron said, no doubt merely reflecting the nightmare we have sleepwalked into, that over the next parliament if he wins he will sit down and respectfully (his words) negotiate with the EU taking ... yes....up to FIVE YEARS to regain at least some of the powers (eg laws) we have let them have over us. Given that the EU started off as The EEC or Common Market whose main purpose was trade barrier removal + to set dairy produce prices!, how did we go from that to now where we seem to have to ask their permission for stuff? worse still, how did we get the kind of twit that will post on this thread saying that its ok and to worry about people in brussels running our lives without even asking our permission to do so is ok? when did our schools start churning out such dumbed down meatheads? http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/6/newsid_2499000/2499297.stm The 1975 "Should we stay in the EEC?" leaflet for The Referendum http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm . oh dear, didnt stick to it for long did they, and the UK govts havent had the democratic decency to even check with us again since. now we are told we have to sit down + negotiate with people in offices thousands of miles away for our right to decide our own destiny! yes, we have to ask permission for what we do in the UK! we are dominated by the EU, somehow they have managed to gain a final say on what we can + cant do, + its about to get potentially a lot more federal. we have given them what millions died to preserve! the right to rule the UK (and collect her taxes). it is an utter disgrace, second only to the appeasers on this forum who think that if they'll be all right or better off financially they can go along with it + get the linguaphone pack out the library. such are no better than the property ponzi VIs they regularly express spite for, in fact they're worse: happy to sell their country out for (a) a quiet appeasement life, or ( b ) worse still, their own selfish financial advantage how did we go from a self-governing Island world-respected with industry, respect for each other, decent quality of life, to a money-grubbing dog eats dog, dustbin of crime + civil liberty erosion? i think our dodgy politicians + their expenses claims tell you all you need to know. As point 3 of the leaflet says, Parliament can repeal or amend the European Communities Act 1972 whenever it pleases. Repeal would end our membership of the EU there and then, even if the EU its self didn't recognise the fact. I really don't know why there is big resistance to it to be honest. The argument goes that we would be crippled economically if we did but I don't see why this would be so. The EU isn't going to stop trading with us in some hissy-fit type manner and, indeed, Switzerland and Norway aren't even members and the EU still trades with them. In fact, one of the key principles in the EU treaties is that the EU will seek to strenghen relations with its neighbors. The one significant problem I could see would be that of British citizens living and working in the EU, and vice-versa, under the freedom of movement of workers clauses. No one who is advocating withdrawal has proposed an answer to this. EU states would be perfectly entitled to kick out any Brit living there. On the other hand, it would mean that we would have much greater control of our borders and wouldn't be obliged to allow in all the sh1te and criminals the rest of Europe sees fit to allow to wander uncontrolled round the continent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qetesuesi Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 heath + major, of course, their only slight defence is did they know how far it would go What rubbish - Heath was a lifelong liar who first lied that joining was only about a free trade area and decades later lied that he'd made it clear all along that it was to be a full-fledged superstate. as above Er, sorry, how so? Maggie had nothing to do with joining or with Maastricht, and was honestly deceived about the implications of the SEA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loginandtonic Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 What rubbish - Heath was a lifelong liar who first lied that joining was only about a free trade area and decades later lied that he'd made it clear all along that it was to be a full-fledged superstate. Er, sorry, how so? Maggie had nothing to do with joining or with Maastricht, and was honestly deceived about the implications of the SEA. i dont think there is any disagreement in our views other than i am no particular fan of thatcher, i'm just not coming across clearly enough i guess but i dont have time right now to re-edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6538 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 too late surely if cameron tries to leave europe they will impose all kind of trade sanctions on the UK I don't think they will. Why would they? Do they do this to Norway and Switzerland? Also, there would be nothing stopping us giving preferential trade and tax treatment to EU based companies and persons but on our terms. A company isn't going to pass up a good deal just because the EU has taken the huff with us. Also, there are a lot of places in the world to trade with that aren't in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6538 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 What rubbish - Heath was a lifelong liar who first lied that joining was only about a free trade area and decades later lied that he'd made it clear all along that it was to be a full-fledged superstate. Er, sorry, how so? Maggie had nothing to do with joining or with Maastricht, and was honestly deceived about the implications of the SEA. Politicians tell you what they want to tell you. A large part of the blame for people being given the wrong idea about the EU lies with the media. The EU treaty clearly says that its members shall work to forge "ever closer links" or words to that effect. There is only one logical conclusion to that yet no one mentioned it. How then could anyone in 1972 know as a copy of the treaty was hardly on every coffee table back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erat_forte Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Just to point out it is not so black and white: English people rightly are peed off about their laws being formulated in a far away foreign city (Brussels) over which they have very little democratic control. However many English seem oblivious of the same situation with Scottish people rightly peed off about their laws being formulated in a far away foreign city (London) over which they have very little democratic control. This is why the anti-EU parties are ridiculous - both the UKIP and the BNP are English parties which rage against one undemocratic union (the EU) whilst simultaneously insisting on retaining another (the UK). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Don't worry about Europe. We've got 'em by the balls to a tune of about 10 billion a year, contested but probably something like about right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu_budget With a negotiating position like that you can afford to be courteous and the weakness of froggies position is reflected in the shrill tone. Their hearts and minds will follow where our ten bill' a year will take 'em. We can make 'em an offer they can't refuse anytime we like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrLemLlBloY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6538 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 There is no reason why we can't remove our selves from the EU and simply stay part of the EEA which is basically the EU lite. Basically the same trading advantages without the rule of law being handed down by Brussels. It works for Norway, Switzerland and I think the Canaries and Gib so where's the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Volio Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 There is no reason why we can't remove our selves from the EU and simply stay part of the EEA which is basically the EU lite. Basically the same trading advantages without the rule of law being handed down by Brussels. It works for Norway, Switzerland and I think the Canaries and Gib so where's the problem? very simply that. as was stated upthread, to be part of the EEA you have to sign up to a whole raft of Directives, but have precisely zero influence on them, their implementation or the technical standards that accompany them The UK actually negotiates pretty hard on stuff within the EU, and usually we can get significant common-sense changes made. This is why the other EU countries kind of like us around - we're mostly pragmatic and because we mostly actually implement stuff (as opposed to pretending to) we think quite hard about its implications Losing that and being forced to stick to the regulations would be madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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