Sick/evil/nasty People - Double Standards ?

[ccc]

One thing has been niggling me about this case of the woman and her daughter. What happened to them sounded brutal. Pushed to the edge and all by this gang of chavs. However this woman burned alive her 18 year old daughter who had learning difficulties. Is that not worthy of discussion ?

I have not heard it discussed anywhere. I can't think of many worse ways to go than being burned alive. Yet this woman did it to her own daughter ?! The fact she was also in the car at the same time does not make it any better in my opinion. It was a sick thing to do. Can you imagine what was going through the daughters mind when this was happening. With her mother sitting in the front ? Horrific. Truly horrific.

Now nasty things happening to people can lead to these people doing nasty things themselves. However there seems to be some unwritten rule about how we think of these people.

The case of Baby P or the similar case in Dundee - Clearly their parents/whoever was looking after them had a ******ed up life. Probably abused themselves. Bullied as well no doubt. Who knows what else. Yet when they commit a horrific act there seems to be no sympathy. They are sick they are evil - end of story. Done, dusted - kill them.

Roman Polanksi - What he did to that girl seems pretty sick. However most people seem to forget that years earlier his wife and unborn child were brutally murdered in the 'Manson' killings. Yet if we look at the other thread today this seems to mean nothing. He is an animal. Kill him. Scum of the Earth. No consideration that perhaps his head is ******ed up due to what happened to him earlier in this life.

These people all had horrific things happen to them in earlier life. These people all went on to carry out horrific acts. Quite possibly all as a direct result of their own experience. Only they will know.

Yet one is seen as a victim, and two are seen as devil spawn who should be killed by an angry mob.

I find that strange, and interesting. Thoughts ?

[ken_ichikawa]

A tibetan get around? , ie people in tibet eat meat but at the same time are buddist and arent supposed to kill animals , hence they get Han chinese people to kill them who dont really care. When there isn't a Han bloke around they have to use a work around ie they go to a Yak stuff its airways with straw and mud and walk away. They walk back and find a dead animal and suddenly think its such a waste of a yak , they didn't administer the killer blow.

Ie if you are going to kill your daughter you have various choices.

Poison

stabbing

beating

hanging

electrocution

Etc , but all of the above it is YOU that administers the killer blow , and then having to administer the killer blow to yourself also, which is stressful and you'd be in a lot of trouble if you suddenly cop out. While if you set fire to a car and sit in it, although you instigated the circumstances its not directly YOU who administers the thing that kills you. And once its on fire after a certain point there is no turning back as seats melt and stick to you (I had a nylon strap melt and glue me to my motorbike once) unlike beating your daughter to death you may suddenly come to your senses and then be in alot of trouble.

What would be a nasty thing would be to wipe out the bullies in a murder suicide thing ie to take them with you.

[Guest KingCharles1st]

One thing has been niggling me about this case of the woman and her daughter. What happened to them sounded brutal. Pushed to the edge and all by this gang of chavs. However this woman burned alive her 18 year old daughter who had learning difficulties. Is that not worthy of discussion ?

I have not heard it discussed anywhere. I can't think of many worse ways to go than being burned alive. Yet this woman did it to her own daughter ?! The fact she was also in the car at the same time does not make it any better in my opinion. It was a sick thing to do. Can you imagine what was going through the daughters mind when this was happening. With her mother sitting in the front ? Horrific. Truly horrific.

Now nasty things happening to people can lead to these people doing nasty things themselves. However there seems to be some unwritten rule about how we think of these people.

The case of Baby P or the similar case in Dundee - Clearly their parents/whoever was looking after them had a ******ed up life. Probably abused themselves. Bullied as well no doubt. Who knows what else. Yet when they commit a horrific act there seems to be no sympathy. They are sick they are evil - end of story. Done, dusted - kill them.

Roman Polanksi - What he did to that girl seems pretty sick. However most people seem to forget that years earlier his wife and unborn child were brutally murdered in the 'Manson' killings. Yet if we look at the other thread today this seems to mean nothing. He is an animal. Kill him. Scum of the Earth. No consideration that perhaps his head is ******ed up due to what happened to him earlier in this life.

These people all had horrific things happen to them in earlier life. These people all went on to carry out horrific acts. Quite possibly all as a direct result of their own experience. Only they will know.

Yet one is seen as a victim, and two are seen as devil spawn who should be killed by an angry mob.

I find that strange, and interesting. Thoughts ?

Agreed- I'm having more than a little trouble with this as well..

[ken_ichikawa]

Oh as a side note , you give humanity too much credit for being civilised , human history is littered with examples of killing each other brutally and technological development for the past 10000 years has just been the search for more effective and efficient methods to kill each other.

[ccc]

A tibetan get around? , ie people in tibet eat meat but at the same time are buddist and arent supposed to kill animals , hence they get Han chinese people to kill them who dont really care. When there isn't a Han bloke around they have to use a work around ie they go to a Yak stuff its airways with straw and mud and walk away. They walk back and find a dead animal and suddenly think its such a waste of a yak , they didn't administer the killer blow.

Ie if you are going to kill your daughter you have various choices.

Poison

stabbing

beating

hanging

electrocution

Etc , but all of the above it is YOU that administers the killer blow , and then having to administer the killer blow to yourself also, which is stressful and you'd be in a lot of trouble if you suddenly cop out. While if you set fire to a car and sit in it, although you instigated the circumstances its not directly YOU who administers the thing that kills you. And once its on fire after a certain point there is no turning back as seats melt and stick to you (I had a nylon strap melt and glue me to my motorbike once) unlike beating your daughter to death you may suddenly come to your senses and then be in alot of trouble.

What would be a nasty thing would be to wipe out the bullies in a murder suicide thing ie to take them with you.

Cheers. That is an interesting point. Never thought of it. Still - the end result is horrific pain and suffering to her own daughter. Now I know people kill loved ones for a variety of reasons. Terminal illness, paralysis causing unbearable depression etc... I can only imagine how horrific that is. However does anyone know that this 18 year old actually wanted to die ? Did she give this impression to anyone else ?

As KingCharles1st says - I am having trouble with this whole affair. What she did is being brushed under the carpet - yet it was a horrific act carried out on her own daughter.

I suppose many are thinking they are both dead now so why bring it up ? I am not so sure about that.

[monty1080]

One thing has been niggling me about this case of the woman and her daughter. What happened to them sounded brutal. Pushed to the edge and all by this gang of chavs. However this woman burned alive her 18 year old daughter who had learning difficulties. Is that not worthy of discussion ?

I have not heard it discussed anywhere. I can't think of many worse ways to go than being burned alive. Yet this woman did it to her own daughter ?! The fact she was also in the car at the same time does not make it any better in my opinion. It was a sick thing to do. Can you imagine what was going through the daughters mind when this was happening. With her mother sitting in the front ? Horrific. Truly horrific.

Now nasty things happening to people can lead to these people doing nasty things themselves. However there seems to be some unwritten rule about how we think of these people.

The case of Baby P or the similar case in Dundee - Clearly their parents/whoever was looking after them had a ******ed up life. Probably abused themselves. Bullied as well no doubt. Who knows what else. Yet when they commit a horrific act there seems to be no sympathy. They are sick they are evil - end of story. Done, dusted - kill them.

Roman Polanksi - What he did to that girl seems pretty sick. However most people seem to forget that years earlier his wife and unborn child were brutally murdered in the 'Manson' killings. Yet if we look at the other thread today this seems to mean nothing. He is an animal. Kill him. Scum of the Earth. No consideration that perhaps his head is ******ed up due to what happened to him earlier in this life.

These people all had horrific things happen to them in earlier life. These people all went on to carry out horrific acts. Quite possibly all as a direct result of their own experience. Only they will know.

Yet one is seen as a victim, and two are seen as devil spawn who should be killed by an angry mob.

I find that strange, and interesting. Thoughts ?

It is strange, but I think the context that is important. This woman appears to have been driven to the brink by a gang of chavs. People who think they have no alternatives can often do horrific things. Mass suicides at Waco, Hitlers bunker etc etc.

However, the baby P parents do not appear to have been driven to torture a child, nor does Polanski appear to have been hounded into committing statutory rape.

As to burning your child alive, that is an awful unforgiveable thing, but she obviously thought it was her only option. Has any of the media coverage mentioned if the woman had mental problems ? This might go some way to helping explain it.

[Cogs]

Cheers. That is an interesting point. Never thought of it. Still - the end result is horrific pain and suffering to her own daughter. Now I know people kill loved ones for a variety of reasons. Terminal illness, paralysis causing unbearable depression etc... I can only imagine how horrific that is. However does anyone know that this 18 year old actually wanted to die ? Did she give this impression to anyone else ?

As KingCharles1st says - I am having trouble with this whole affair. What she did is being brushed under the carpet - yet it was a horrific act carried out on her own daughter.

I suppose many are thinking they are both dead now so why bring it up ? I am not so sure about that.

Compare and contrast with "family annihilators".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...childrenoutofit

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/nov/05/ukcrime.lornamartin

It would appear the difference is presumed motivations.

I'm sort of convinced and sort of not convinced they are different things.

[1929crash]

The mother was obviously unbalanced by ten years of torment. I have nothing but sypathy for her and her daughter.

[SHERWICK]

Anyone who actually wants to burn themselves, never mind their child(ren), is quite obviously completely and utterly mad.

Just think of the pain you feel when you get but a tiny burn when cooking.

This woman was mad - that's the only explanation we need for what she did.

We're fortunate she didn't kill others (e.g. Council officials, the police) as well in some grand plan.

[Kingding]

I think what someone said earlier about hounding is quite important. People who are hounded mercilessly tend to do strange things, I was bullied when I was at school overseas rather badly in fact. One day I was discovered at the airport after making my way there on foot, the fact that I had no cash to get home had not entered as a factor in my head only that thats where the planes were to take me home and away from the bullies. I was of course, duly bollocked and ridiculed once I was sent back. Torment repeated but at a greater volume.

This is a far less extreme example to what we have seen in the news however like I said, people who are tormented relentlessly do irrational things. I think what we have seen is the result of something that as a society we have yet to tackle properly and that is looking the other way while a person is relentlessly bullied, this is something that is going very mainstream now look at Gordon Ramsay, the man is an extrovert and a bully and his show is a reflection of his ego. Watching this is not much different to watching the kid in the playground get a kicking and doing nothing even taking it as a form of entertainment. This is format that is repeated on The Apprentice, Big Brother, any type of reality show you can think of, in fact I think it's only a matter of time before someone goes seriously postal on one of these shows.

Roman Polanski had a shocking thing happened to him but he wasn't hounded, Baby P's killers have no excuse and I feel very sorry for this woman as nobody helped her when she needed it most though I agree burning yourself and your daughter to death even in your most irrational state it a strange and horrific thing to do.

[Mrs Bear]

One thing has been niggling me about this case of the woman and her daughter. What happened to them sounded brutal. Pushed to the edge and all by this gang of chavs. However this woman burned alive her 18 year old daughter who had learning difficulties. Is that not worthy of discussion ?

I have not heard it discussed anywhere. I can't think of many worse ways to go than being burned alive. Yet this woman did it to her own daughter ?! The fact she was also in the car at the same time does not make it any better in my opinion. It was a sick thing to do. Can you imagine what was going through the daughters mind when this was happening. With her mother sitting in the front ? Horrific. Truly horrific.

Now nasty things happening to people can lead to these people doing nasty things themselves. However there seems to be some unwritten rule about how we think of these people.

The case of Baby P or the similar case in Dundee - Clearly their parents/whoever was looking after them had a ******ed up life. Probably abused themselves. Bullied as well no doubt. Who knows what else. Yet when they commit a horrific act there seems to be no sympathy. They are sick they are evil - end of story. Done, dusted - kill them.

Roman Polanksi - What he did to that girl seems pretty sick. However most people seem to forget that years earlier his wife and unborn child were brutally murdered in the 'Manson' killings. Yet if we look at the other thread today this seems to mean nothing. He is an animal. Kill him. Scum of the Earth. No consideration that perhaps his head is ******ed up due to what happened to him earlier in this life.

These people all had horrific things happen to them in earlier life. These people all went on to carry out horrific acts. Quite possibly all as a direct result of their own experience. Only they will know.

Yet one is seen as a victim, and two are seen as devil spawn who should be killed by an angry mob.

I find that strange, and interesting. Thoughts ?

This poor woman was driven to black despair by brutal thugs and the complete indifference of anyone in authority. It seems pretty obvious that the balance of her mind was disturbed, as they say.

Of course, if the incidents had been logged as 'hate crimes' and had therefore ticked the right PC boxes, the police would probably have done something about it.

Not to mention that if she and her daughter had been anything but white, and similarly persecuted by white feral brats, that would have ticked police boxes too.

[monty1080]

This poor woman was driven to black despair by brutal thugs and the complete indifference of anyone in authority. It seems pretty obvious that the balance of her mind was disturbed, as they say.

Of course, if the incidents had been logged as 'hate crimes' and had therefore ticked the right PC boxes, the police would probably have done something about it.

Not to mention that if she and her daughter had been anything but white, and similarly persecuted by white feral brats, that would have ticked police boxes too.

Almost certainly true.... sadly.

[Guest X-QUORK]

This poor woman was severely depressed. People do not always make logical decisions in such a state.

Don't judge her as you would somebody in their right mind.

[Guest Dizzy Rash Call]

Very sad, she probably wanted to make a statement which would get media attention. Maybe she ended her disabled daughters life quickly before hand. She must have been mentally fractured.

Why the hell do some people want to make other people's lives a misery. I DON'T GET IT?

[Mr C]

Just goes to show what people can do when driven to the ragged edge, they get to a stage where they feel they have nothing to lose, someone in that state of mind can be very dangerous, look at the shootings at those collages & schools in the US, nearly always carried out by someone who feels excluded or resented by society.

Bullying is a serious thing, it does lasting damage to people who cant defend themselves. I remember at school many many moons ago, some kids started on me, luckily I was strong enough to give them a proper full on hiding, broken noses all round, needless to say that was the last time it ever happened

[Boomer!]

Oh as a side note , you give humanity too much credit for being civilised , human history is littered with examples of killing each other brutally and technological development for the past 10000 years has just been the search for more effective and efficient methods to kill each other.

Aint that the truth.

the thing I find suprising, is people being suprised at what people do.

[ccc]

Thanks for all the replies. I think the common theme is that she was driven to the edge. She was mentally unstable. She was possibly insane. She didn't think there was any other way out. She would have to be insane to have done the thing she did.

I would agree that all the above is probably true. However this leads me to the same question again. If this woman has been driven to the edge, then why not the same thoughts about Polanksi and the parents/minders of the young tots who were murdered ?

Surely the things these people did are also only possibly by someone whose mind has been damaged. Or is it simply easier just to call these people evil beasts, and this woman a victim. When in fact the suffering they commited on others, is in the same league. In fact, you would have to say burning someone alive must rate as a more horrific crime than raping a 13 year old girl.

I know this doesn't justify anything - but could this woman and her daughter not have moved ? Again I am not trying to belittle what happened. It must have been horrific. But there must have been a way out rather than burning her daughter alive ? For Polanski ? No way out for him. His wife and unbirn child were brutally murdered. No way of him ending that suffering. Probably drives him mad every single night of his life.

Yet he is a beast, and this woman is a victim. I find that a rather strange and in all honesty - unfair - conclusion to these pretty shocking incidents.

Maybe what happened to Polanksis wife had nothing to do with his depraved attitude to that young girl ? Possible ? Of course.

Then again, this opens up another, rather more uncomfortable possibility. Maybe what happened to this woman over the years had nothing to do with what she finally did to herself and he daughter. Maybe this woudl have happened with or without the years of abuse. Possible ? Of course. However hard that may be for people to accept.

I find these things very interesting. I understand many others don't. That is because they probably get people thinking about things they would rather not...

[ccc]

Aint that the truth.

the thing I find suprising, is people being suprised at what people do.

I don't.

I do however find it surprising how when some people commit a brutal act, it is simply brushed off as not their fault - yet when others do a similar thing ? They are instantly the devil's evil spawn.

How these positions are reached interests me.

[Guest X-QUORK]

I do however find it surprising how when some people commit a brutal act, it is simply brushed off as not their fault - yet when others do a similar thing ? They are instantly the devil's evil spawn.

How these positions are reached interests me.

You have a point, I'm sure a lot of the people we call monsters were themselves abused. I'm not sure that is an excuse in itself, but it does go some way to explaining things.

[ccc]

You have a point, I'm sure a lot of the people we call monsters were themselves abused. I'm not sure that is an excuse in itself, but it does go some way to explaining things.

That is what I was thinking. It does not make what they did ok. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished. I just think we should try to understand what drove these people to it.

I just think it is a cheap and easy way out to just call everyone who does sick things as some sort of beast who should be hung up. I have had a cruisy life. I know that. However if I had been abused when younger, if I had loved ones brutally murdered ? Maybe I would turn into a monster and start doing sick things too. I hope I never find out.

If it did happen though what happened to me would be an excuse. It wouldn't make it right. It would help to explain things though.

I think life is far more complex than simply labelling people either:

(1) Beasts

(2) Non beasts.

Yet that is what most people do.

[Guest X-QUORK]

I think life is far more complex than simply labelling people either:

(1) Beasts

(2) Non beasts.

Yet that is what most people do.

I agree totally.

[OnionTerror]

Thanks for all the replies. I think the common theme is that she was driven to the edge. She was mentally unstable. She was possibly insane. She didn't think there was any other way out. She would have to be insane to have done the thing she did.

I would agree that all the above is probably true. However this leads me to the same question again. If this woman has been driven to the edge, then why not the same thoughts about Polanksi and the parents/minders of the young tots who were murdered ?

Surely the things these people did are also only possibly by someone whose mind has been damaged. Or is it simply easier just to call these people evil beasts, and this woman a victim. When in fact the suffering they commited on others, is in the same league. In fact, you would have to say burning someone alive must rate as a more horrific crime than raping a 13 year old girl.

I know this doesn't justify anything - but could this woman and her daughter not have moved ? Again I am not trying to belittle what happened. It must have been horrific. But there must have been a way out rather than burning her daughter alive ? For Polanski ? No way out for him. His wife and unbirn child were brutally murdered. No way of him ending that suffering. Probably drives him mad every single night of his life.

Yet he is a beast, and this woman is a victim. I find that a rather strange and in all honesty - unfair - conclusion to these pretty shocking incidents.

Maybe what happened to Polanksis wife had nothing to do with his depraved attitude to that young girl ? Possible ? Of course.

Then again, this opens up another, rather more uncomfortable possibility. Maybe what happened to this woman over the years had nothing to do with what she finally did to herself and he daughter. Maybe this woudl have happened with or without the years of abuse. Possible ? Of course. However hard that may be for people to accept.

I find these things very interesting. I understand many others don't. That is because they probably get people thinking about things they would rather not...

As for Polanski; things happen to a lot of families (rape, murder, etc, etc..) but it doesn't turn them to paedophilia and then purposely avoided justice for over 30 years. You can't blame that on grief. If he had gone to prison, at least he would have served his time, and people would have accepted that.

For instance, a friend of mine's sister was raped, and the offender got away with it. It drove my friend to a near state of madness, but they didn't go & stab random people. People should ask for help before they feel the urge need to take any action - I think its their responsible for them to do this, so that they don't do any harm to innocent members of the general public..

[ccc]

As for Polanski; things happen to a lot of families (rape, murder, etc, etc..) but it doesn't turn them to paedophilia and then purposely avoided justice for over 30 years. You can't blame that on grief. If he had gone to prison, at least he would have served his time, and people would have accepted that.

For instance, a friend of mine's sister was raped, and the offender got away with it. It drove my friend to a near state of madness, but they didn't go & stab random people. People should ask for help before they feel the urge need to take any action - I think its their responsible for them to do this, so that they don't do any harm to innocent members of the general public..

I am sure that is simple in theory. In reality if it happened to you or me ? Maybe we would turn into maniacs as well. Who knows.

I am not saying every sick event has something in the past to explain it in some way. However there must be a lot where this is possible.

[OnionTerror]

I am sure that is simple in theory. In reality if it happened to you or me ? Maybe we would turn into maniacs as well. Who knows.

I am not saying every sick event has something in the past to explain it in some way. However there must be a lot where this is possible.

Family members should push them towards getting help (such as counselling) if they see them rapidly going down hill..If they refuse. book them appointments for them and take them to it if need be... I know its easier said than done, but if it needs to be done to stop them doing further damage, then you do what you've got to do..

[mrfooty]

I get ******ing annoyed when people underline certain words in their comments as I always have to hover over them just in case it's a link.

******ing annoyed but I wouldn't kill anyone