Neverland Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You do realise that output is shrinking and jobs are being lost everywhere.My point is that reports of the death of British manufacturing are premature, pessimistic and inaccurate. And despite this helluva mess that we are in right now British manufacturing still produces more product and more value than it did in 2000. http://www.finfacts.com/irishfinancenews/a...e_1017840.shtml +1 I would be betting on British manufacturing doing pretty well in the next few years - we just devalued 25% relative to our largest trading partners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enrieb Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) As I see this point on this thread, the suggestion,"There is no way on Earth that Uk manufacturing has gone up since 2000 ffs, anyone with a brain must know this." Is, with the greatest of respect, highly likely to be wrong. Can I ask how long you have worked in the manufacturing sector? I have worked in manufacturing for over 20 years now, for a number of different firms. Your assesment of the state of manufacturing in the UK seems entirely at odds with my experience and the experience of everyone I know who had worked in manufacturing. There may be statistical examples that can show growth and efficiency in manufacturing but they are almost entirely slight of hand. Manufacturing in the UK consists of importing component parts for final assembly and packaging before sticking a made in UK label on the product. The extra profit the company makes from sourcing cheap materials from overseas helps to make the figures look good. One of the last companies I worked for was a large multinational that held over 50% of the worlds market share for turbochargers, parts could be flown in from china at a lower cost and at a higher quality than could be manufactured in the UK. Eventually 37% of the turbos we produced were from overseas, we just would change the product number which allowed us to put a made in UK label on the product. Almost all UK manufacturing is entirely dependent on cheap imports from China, either component parts or semi finished products that are little more than repackaged. The UK leads the world in manufacturing healthy balance sheets and spin. I would be interested hear from anyone on the board who works in manufacturing and has a different experience, one that would support your claims. Edited September 28, 2009 by enrieb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_flaps_* Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 yes, in fact I know many middle aged highly skilled men who regularly turn down 30k manufacturing jobs every week. Instead they choose to work for B&Q & Asda stacking shelves for 10k.exactly, good to see some sense out there. Well GOMR all I can do is like you, use my eyes, ears and experience. I've been a buyer in the manufacturing sector for over a decade. All I've seen is quality companies closing down and the work shifting abroad to lesser quality, but far far cheaper sources which means parts shipped from the other side of the world is still far more cost effective than making them in the UK. I've worked in aerospace, rail, hydraulics and heavy industry and I've yet to see any of the suppliers I've used over the years actually grow in size. I've seen many shed jobs, I've seen a number go under. I've been made redundant twice, one due to offshoring of jobs, the second due to the loss of a big contract overseas. Luckily they were during the 'good times' and I managed to find re-employment reasonably quickly afterwards. All I'm hearing from my suppliers now is utter doom and gloom. I fear should redundancy number 3 come along, that will be the end of my time in the manufacturing sector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_flaps_* Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Can I ask how long you have worked in the manufacturing sector?I have worked in manufacturing for over 20 years now, for a number of different firms. Your assesment of the state of manufacturing in the UK seems entirely at odds with my experience and the experience of everyone I know who had worked in manufacturing. There may be statistical examples that can show growth and efficiency in manufacturing but they are almost entirely slight of hand. Manufacturing in the UK consists of importing component parts for final assembly and packaging before sticking a made in UK label on the product. The extra profit the company makes from sourcing cheap materials from overseas helps to make the figures look good. One of the last companies I worked for was a large multinational that held over 50% of the worlds market share for turbochargers, parts could be flown in from china at a lower cost and at a higher quality than could be manufactured in the UK. Eventually 37% of the turbos we produced were from overseas, we just would change the product number which allowed us to put a made in UK label on the product. Almost all UK manufacturing is entirely dependent on cheap imports from China, either component parts or semi finished products that are little more than repackaged. The UK leads the world in manufacturing healthy balance sheets and spin. I would be interested hear from anyone on the board who works in manufacturing and has a different experience, one that would support your claims. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpy-old-man-returns Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Can I ask how long you have worked in the manufacturing sector?I have worked in manufacturing for over 20 years now, for a number of different firms. Your assesment of the state of manufacturing in the UK seems entirely at odds with my experience and the experience of everyone I know who had worked in manufacturing. There may be statistical examples that can show growth and efficiency in manufacturing but they are almost entirely slight of hand. Manufacturing in the UK consists of importing component parts for final assembly and packaging before sticking a made in UK label on the product. The extra profit the company makes from sourcing cheap materials from overseas helps to make the figures look good. One of the last companies I worked for was a large multinational that held over 50% of the worlds market share for turbochargers, parts could be flown in from china at a lower cost and at a higher quality, than could be manufactured in the UK. Eventually 37% of the turbos we produced were from overseas, we just would change the product number which allowed us to put a made in UK label on the product. Almost all UK manufacturing is entirely dependent on cheap imports from China, either component parts or semi finished products that are little more than repackaged. The UK leads the world in manufacturing healthy balance sheets and spin. I would be interested hear from anyone on the board who works in manufacturing and has a different experience, one that would support your claims. +1 this is exactly my point enrieb. I haven't snipped any of it because I want people to read it again. the government are manipulating everything so that people do not realise just how bad it really is. Although the people who work in these sectors know what's really happening. I would love to see the UK independent & make its own stuff again, out of proper materials, not that sh1tty plastic. We used to be amongst the best in the world for engineers/engineering & manufacturing processes, but in the real world away from the stats this has dramatically changed, due to the reasons you clearly state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 According to the IMF GB GDP will be about 2 trillion dollars in 2009. Manufacturing will make a sizeable contribution to that number. It is not a dead horse. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/20...mp;grp=0&a= No doubt there is considerable sleight of hand that goes on in GB manufacturing but lets not pretend that other people don't do it too and quite possibly more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Boy Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 you do realise you are using government VI stats don't you?The ONS admitted that the stats they produced were flawed about 2 months ago. Why is she standing on wet paint ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Sacks Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Why is she standing on wet paint ? A visit to the gynaecologist me thinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpy-old-man-returns Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) Why is she standing on wet paint ? ah, depends on your brain type, most see the lady painted into the corner. left brain vs right brain edit - the colour on the brush was the clue though..... Edited September 28, 2009 by grumpy-old-man-returns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_flaps_* Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 +1this is exactly my point enrieb. I haven't snipped any of it because I want people to read it again. the government are manipulating everything so that people do not realise just how bad it really is. Although the people who work in these sectors know what's really happening. I would love to see the UK independent & make its own stuff again, out of proper materials, not that sh1tty plastic. We used to be amongst the best in the world for engineers/engineering & manufacturing processes, but in the real world away from the stats this has dramatically changed, due to the reasons you clearly state. Absolutely +1!! Even back in the early part of this decade as I was having to break the news to yet another high quailty fabricator or machine shop that we would now be going elsewhere (Poland, China) for the products, I said that eventually this will turn around again as prices would start to rise out there due to demand and once poor quality, the loss of responsivness and delayed shipping times started to highlight the true bottom line cost, rather than just the piece price quoted cost, then manufacturing would start to come back to these shores once again. I still live in hope. I just fear all the experience will have will have died by the time our folly is fully realised, as we aint passing these skills onto anyone as the industry is slowly wound down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpy-old-man-returns Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Absolutely +1!!Even back in the early part of this decade as I was having to break the news to yet another high quailty fabricator or machine shop that we would now be going elsewhere (Poland, China) for the products, I said that eventually this will turn around again as prices would start to rise out there due to demand and once poor quality, the loss of responsivness and delayed shipping times started to highlight the true bottom line cost, rather than just the piece price quoted cost, then manufacturing would start to come back to these shores once again. I still live in hope. I just fear all the experience will have will have died by the time our folly is fully realised, as we aint passing these skills onto anyone as the industry is slowly wound down. & this is the guessing game isn't it. Do yuo train as an engineer in case it does come back home, so to speak....or will it be lost forever. I really don't know where I stand on that. I think if I had to choose, I would go for it coming back because imports will be too expensive, this depends on your dollar oil stance though. I think we will get $200 oil in 2010/2011 & for the forseeable short term future......perhaps 5 years ? hence the coal mines being opened up again. Do you know tha logging is booming as people turn to open fires & wood burning boilers again because gas/electric are so expensive. We aim to also do this from next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbonic Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 hence the coal mines being opened up again. Do you know tha logging is booming as people turn to open fires & wood burning boilers again because gas/electric are so expensive. We aim to also do this from next year. I don't think there will be a big resurgence in deep mines in the UK - most of the good seams anywhere near the surface have been mined out. But there could well be a lot of growth in industries like coal bed/mine methane extraction and underground coal gasification - cbm and ucg can make heavy use of the UKs expertise in oil and gas extraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_flaps_* Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 & this is the guessing game isn't it. Do yuo train as an engineer in case it does come back home, so to speak....or will it be lost forever.I really don't know where I stand on that. I think if I had to choose, I would go for it coming back because imports will be too expensive, this depends on your dollar oil stance though. I think we will get $200 oil in 2010/2011 & for the forseeable short term future......perhaps 5 years ? hence the coal mines being opened up again. Do you know tha logging is booming as people turn to open fires & wood burning boilers again because gas/electric are so expensive. We aim to also do this from next year. Well in the last decade I've noticed all the engineers are 10 years older, there has been no youth or apprentiships coming through anywhere where I've seen. I do believe like you it will come back for the same reasons. I also said a couple of years ago we should look to re-open some pits. Might as well employ people to do something benefical for the country than just sit on their back sides claiming dole and watching Trisha! Its funny, I was thinking only this weekend what a benefit my other halfs Dad's house has with both central heating and open fires downstairs. Once its too expensive to run the central heating you can still ensure you have a lovely warm room or two!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indirectapproach Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 It seems that GB's GDP is something like the 7th largest in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) This would not be the case if GB's manufacturing base was defunct. Personal experience and anecdotal evidence is an important part of the overall picture. But it is the overall picture that counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steve Cook Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) Well in the last decade I've noticed all the engineers are 10 years older, there has been no youth or apprentiships coming through anywhere where I've seen.I do believe like you it will come back for the same reasons. I also said a couple of years ago we should look to re-open some pits. Might as well employ people to do something benefical for the country than just sit on their back sides claiming dole and watching Trisha! Its funny, I was thinking only this weekend what a benefit my other halfs Dad's house has with both central heating and open fires downstairs. Once its too expensive to run the central heating you can still ensure you have a lovely warm room or two!! For a many of the flooded pits, the cost of the energy required to drain and reinstate them is too close to the energy left in them. Not all, but many of them. We hit peak coal in this country many decades ago. Edited September 28, 2009 by Steve Cook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpy-old-man-returns Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I don't think there will be a big resurgence in deep mines in the UK - most of the good seams anywhere near the surface have been mined out. But there could well be a lot of growth in industries like coal bed/mine methane extraction and underground coal gasification - cbm and ucg can make heavy use of the UKs expertise in oil and gas extraction. can you point me to where I said that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpy-old-man-returns Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) It seems that GB's GDP is something like the 7th largest in the world.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) This would not be the case if GB's manufacturing base was defunct. Personal experience and anecdotal evidence is an important part of the overall picture. But it is the overall picture that counts. can you tell me why no-one in high level governement or BoE supposedly saw the depression coming ? they happily churned out stats to say the opposite even in 2008. Then the recession (as they call it) got backdated. please apply the same logic to your current thinking. Edited September 28, 2009 by grumpy-old-man-returns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_flaps_* Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 For a many of the flooded pits, the cost of the energy required to drain and reinstate them is too close to the energy left in them. Not all, but many of them. We hit peak coal in this country many decades ago. So you get a net energy balance of zero. But surely the benefit is in providing work, which will be taxable and will give more people money to spend in the economy? Ok, its a bit like paying people to dig holes and others to fill them in again, but surely people working doing this is better than them sat on their sofa claiming benefits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_flaps_* Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 It seems that GB's GDP is something like the 7th largest in the world.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) This would not be the case if GB's manufacturing base was defunct. Personal experience and anecdotal evidence is an important part of the overall picture. But it is the overall picture that counts. With due respect, I prefer to use my own experince rather than cooked government figures when it comes to the state of the industry. Re-badging and re-packaging and slapping 'made in the UK' stickers on things is not what I consider high value creating manufacturing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Boy Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 ah, depends on your brain type, most see the lady painted into the corner. left brain vs right brain edit - the colour on the brush was the clue though..... The tin of paint would have been a better clue. Where is it ? if its out of arms reach this could be a set up like the moon landing . Some old bloke once told me to never trust what you see. Always go information seeking first to establish the true situation. Fook all to do with this thread though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I would love to see the UK start the manufacturing & engineering sectors again, but wishing for it, won't make it happen.I actually thought they would open the coal mines up again, said it in 2007/8, guess what...... perhaps you are arguing with yourself here ? looking for a needle in a haystack is possible, if you look for long enough. I remember last year, the BBC had a 'new jobs created' piece on their morning news. It was some guy who owned a sandwich bar in London, he was opening another one, thus employing another 2 members of staff. It was embarrassing. manufacture what? and cheaper than China? itll be a few years before all chinese workers are paid what ours need, and they dont have a sophisticated healthcare and benefits regime to pay for either. we have no chance.....all we can do is lend money....then again, they dont need that either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris25 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 It seems that GB's GDP is something like the 7th largest in the world.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) This would not be the case if GB's manufacturing base was defunct. Personal experience and anecdotal evidence is an important part of the overall picture. But it is the overall picture that counts. Look in the room around you. How many things are British made? I try and buy British but in front of me everything is foreign made. Not even by a British company abroad. There was a programme not so long ago about a guy who had to live for a few weeks only buying British stuff, watch it and you will suddenly realize just how pathetic British manufacturing actually is. You can quote all the output zanulabour figures you want, but all I ever here about and witness is factory after factory closing. Never hear of new jobs being created, never see new British items in shops. All the plants closing down or closed down are simply bulldozed and turned into barrat boxes or shopping complexes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
right_freds_dead Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 manufacture what? and cheaper than China? itll be a few years before all chinese workers are paid what ours need, and they dont have a sophisticated healthcare and benefits regime to pay for either.we have no chance.....all we can do is lend money....then again, they dont need that either. EDIT: all we 'could' do was lend money, stolen (or attempted to) from a generations working lives. it got top heavy, and keeled over. its not something that can right itself without radical change. for radical change we need a radical posture. like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesusaves Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 manufacture what? and cheaper than China? itll be a few years before all chinese workers are paid what ours need, and they dont have a sophisticated healthcare and benefits regime to pay for either.we have no chance.....all we can do is lend money....then again, they dont need that either. As soon as someone starts to set up a manufacturing business in the UK, established competitors overseas will just reduce their prces until the new business cannot survive. The big boys (and girlies) will win. Once you've allowed your industry to wane, it's nearly impossible to get it back again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
right_freds_dead Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) As soon as someone starts to set up a manufacturing business in the UK, established competitors overseas will just reduce their prces until the new business cannot survive. The big boys (and girlies) will win. Once you've allowed your industry to wane, it's nearly impossible to get it back again. we are pretty good at manufacturing untruths, pyramid schemes and exporting it around the globe. Edited September 28, 2009 by right_freds_dead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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