Millions March On Washington?

[bill still]

Well, that's because the middle class HAS to watch its money closely. Nothing wrong with that, mate.

Having lived in the US going on ten years I shouldn't be surprised by much but always am. Most folk can't name the 50 states but ask them to tell you the ins and outs of their insurance and they are feckin experts. How much co-pay, what %, when the co-pay runs out and how much the drug bill is for the rest of the year. Me? I have tried to figure mine out but end up giving up and paying most doctors visits out of my own pocket. The whole thing would confuse Steven Hawkins. Maybe I really am as thick as a surgical boot as me old Dad once said to me.

[bill still]

Debt Slave, can you translate this for me, "... the squibb of mankind"?

I didn't understand that guy's reference.

Absolute nonsense

Have you ever actually travelled in America or spent more than a cople weeks on holiday there? What is your basis for such a sweeping statement?

[bill still]

What a horribly unfair sweeping generalization of the American mindset.

Be fair. He's pretty opposite Bush on the CIA and FBI torture stuff.

He isn't tied to the oil industry lobby like Bush was so 'green' agenda will move a long way, although not as far as the rest of the world would like!

Clinton, the last Democratic president tried to bring changes to health care but it was massively watered down. Too many people in the drug and insurance industry are pulling Rep and even some Dem senator strings.

It could be a tipping point, in only his first year! The Rep and all anti - 'liberal' lot are desperate to kick helathcare reform into the long grass not because it's the right thing to do, but purely to take down the 'jumped-up N...' a peg or too. (Their words not mine).

[Caligari]

Protests and marches do nothing

Just Imagine

If all of the people in the Anti Iraq war march simply went to their bank account London and withdrew their savings for a day or two... they would have brought the government to it's knees.

You could call it "The Northern Rock Tactic"

Create a bank run instead of marching and chanting slogans

All future protests should be organized bank runs

[bill still]

Excuse me!

They are not morons. They are giving up their time and some of their money to a cause. I know this is foreign to the British mindset, don't denigrate it so.

All those 2 million marchers may not have the sophistication that you do, but many of them do. They may not know the crux of the problem, but they have correctly identified that there is a problem and to the streets they go.

Shocking, I know, but we actually believe we can change things in our government. We actually believe that they are supposed to be working for us.

If you think me one of the moronic American host, I challenge you to literary combat right here on this field. Any topic of your choosing. You may have the first shot, Sir.

Millions of Americans are marching in Washington because they are morons.

Obama is worse than Bush in that he doesn't have a mandate. At least with W you could hazard a guess to what was coming next.

[bill still]

Agreed.

imo you get a better feel for where the market is going from this site than from the MSM,that in itself is important.

[bill still]

Nonsense!

Susan Boyle was HUGE story over here.

Charlie Sheen story is covered everywhere over here. Are you calling in from the Sirius star system?

Still no coverage on Sky lead stories, are kids with ecoli (hardly national news is it), susan boyle, cover up of libian murderer by straw (quelle surprise), recovery at risk.

Nothing about the people voicing there discontent.

I was looking into the charlie sheen thing yesterday, his video/letter to the president - not covered by one major american channel, just the lesser websites and radio - got covergae in the UK telgraph though.

[bill still]

This is exactly right on all points.

Good post.

I too am sick of the 'dumb redneck' stuff that is always brought up by smug Europeanised pseudo-intellectuals. The BBC's coverage of the healthcare debate has been particularly offensive. The make very little attempt to understand the different culture of the US, whilst they would bend over backwards to understand the culture of some primitive tribe in a jungle.

The fact is that the UK and Europe's culture are based on feudal obligations - someone in charge will look after you - whereas the US is based on a specific rejection of that mindset - the only person responsible for you is you.

And whilst Americans do tend to be ignorant of the wider world, I am always impressed by how much ordinary Americans know about the way their own country is run; their democracy is far more participatory than ours.

[zilly]

Excuse me!

They are not morons. They are giving up their time and some of their money to a cause. I know this is foreign to the British mindset, don't denigrate it so.

All those 2 million marchers may not have the sophistication that you do, but many of them do. They may not know the crux of the problem, but they have correctly identified that there is a problem and to the streets they go.

Shocking, I know, but we actually believe we can change things in our government. We actually believe that they are supposed to be working for us.

If you think me one of the moronic American host, I challenge you to literary combat right here on this field. Any topic of your choosing. You may have the first shot, Sir.

Actually the British do plenty of giving for charity both in terms of time and money. Philanthropy and patronage from our rich industrialists and moneyed elite is lacking in comparison with the USA, but that shouldn't be confused with the work done and money given by the normal folk.

Giving to/working for a cause certainly isn't 'foreign to our mindset' - just largely foreign to our greedy rich.

[bill still]

Correction: I was meaning political causes, not charitable.

Actually the British do plenty of giving for charity both in terms of time and money. Philanthropy and patronage from our rich industrialists and moneyed elite is lacking in comparison with the USA, but that shouldn't be confused with the work done and money given by the normal folk.

Giving to/working for a cause certainly isn't 'foreign to our mindset' - just largely foreign to our greedy rich.

[zilly]

Correction: I was meaning political causes, not charitable.

Fair enough but I would dispute that too!

For sure, the cults of consumerism and materialism have produced a lot of blank-eyed 'sheeple' here, but in that we are no different to anywhere in the world where the population has regular access to the television and/or the internet.

Three quarters of a million people marched in London in protest at the invasion of the Iraq war in 2003, which hardly fits with your perception of us as a supine, politically-disengaged race.

I think to imply that we are not 'citizens' in the way you are (normally predicated on the fact we have a monarchy and a misunderstanding of its role) is as disingenuous as it is of ignorant Brits branding Americans as 'rednecks'.

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

Debt Slave, can you translate this for me, "... the squibb of mankind"?

I didn't understand that guy's reference.

Hi Bill

Can't say I understand myself actually

But it isn't really very important. He doesn't like Americans it seems, though I'm very sure his observations are not based in real life experience.

I have lived in America and I am married to a US citizen. I'm currently going through the shenanigans to emigrate to Oregon to be with her.

Personally, I think America has still got alot going for it. It's not over for America by a long way, despite the current economic catastrophe which is really a fiction anyway because the whole monetary system is a fiction.

All that has happend is a lot of people have consumed a lot of stuff and they haven't paid for it .......and they are unlikely to be able to pay for it in a world of finite resources and exponential population growth.

The choice ahead is simply freedom or slavery

The American people are still more likely to chose freedom. Let's hope so anyway!

The British by contrast will sit on their hands while the state rapes them.......forever.

I can't wait to get outta here

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

Fair enough but I would dispute that too!

For sure, the cults of consumerism and materialism have produced a lot of blank-eyed 'sheeple' here, but in that we are no different to anywhere in the world where the population has regular access to the television and/or the internet.

Three quarters of a million people marched in London in protest at the invasion of the Iraq war in 2003, which hardly fits with your perception of us as a supine, politically-disengaged race.

I think to imply that we are not 'citizens' in the way you are (normally predicated on the fact we have a monarchy and a misunderstanding of its role) is as disingenuous as it is of ignorant Brits branding Americans as 'rednecks'.

I don't think the purpose of the monarchy is quite as you understand it.

I think the monarchy is much more powerful and influential than we are led to believe

[SMAC67]

Hi Bill

Can't say I understand myself actually

But it isn't really very important. He doesn't like Americans it seems, though I'm very sure his observations are not based in real life experience.

I have lived in America and I am married to a US citizen. I'm currently going through the shenanigans to emigrate to Oregon to be with her.

Personally, I think America has still got alot going for it. It's not over for America by a long way, despite the current economic catastrophe which is really a fiction anyway because the whole monetary system is a fiction.

All that has happend is a lot of people have consumed a lot of stuff and they haven't paid for it .......and they are unlikely to be able to pay for it in a world of finite resources and exponential population growth.

The choice ahead is simply freedom or slavery

The American people are still more likely to chose freedom. Let's hope so anyway!

The British by contrast will sit on their hands while the state rapes them.......forever.

I can't wait to get outta here

Out of the frying pan and into the inferno!

[markinspain]

yep. and where did it get them?

peaceful protest is for mugs like the g20 protesters who think that getting battered by tooled up coppers will turn them into Gandhi - whereas the truth is that those in charge are just laughing at them and ignoring them. IMO they would have every right to start turning up protests in crash helmets with milk bottles full of petrol next time around.

Exactly, until the general public demonstrating like this no changes will occur. Direct action always gets results, e.g. The Brixton Riots did actually force changes to occur. Unfortunately, 99% of the population are oblivious in front of their TVs and the other 1% moan on internet forums.

Back on topic, Obama's healthcare bill is a cover for eugenics. Read 'Ecoscience' by John Holdren.

Edited September 13, 2009 by markinspain

[SMAC67]

Exactly, until the general public demonstrating like this no changes will occur. Direct action always gets results, e.g. The Brixton Riots did actually force changes to occur. Unfortunately, 99% of the population are oblivious in front of their TVs and the other 1% moan on internet forums.

Back on topic, Obama's healthcare bill is a cover for eugenics. Read 'Ecoscience' by John Holdren.

Demonstrations are pointless, they are only allowed if they illicit no change. Any demo resulting in real change would simply not be allowed to take place.

Remember, the Brits are currently trying to emulate the Yanks, and the Yanks are busy trying to copy Brits from the middle ages. The madness of King George "Bush".

Slaves, or indentured servants are always oblivious to reality. Personally I intend to do"nothing" as I do not need to do anything, the banks and their puppets, central government, are busy destroying their own system. The Yanks are imploding even quicker than us, and they have guns, and lots of them. Expect civil war akin to Iraq and/or the Balkans within a very short time frame.

As for Eugenics, that is what the current system is intended to achieve in the US. I would guess if Obama has any intention it is to simply reduce the money making scam that is private health, it is sucking the last remaining bit of life out of the good ole US of A. The government cannot afford the current system.......................it cannot afford any alternative system either..............the US government is insolvent.

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

Out of the frying pan and into the inferno!

Well, I have to confess, it's a worrying time and moving to America is a big gamble

I have judged that the UK is a much worse place to be than America if things go totally pearshaped....which I firmly believe is where we are heading.

I still have more faith that the American people will put a fight. The British will will just take it up the ar$e forever.

The other big advantage of America is your right to bear arms is still intact

I'd rather use that right to defend my freedom and die defending it than living as a a slave in perpetuity here in England with no possible means to defend myself.

[tomwatkins]

It never ceases to amaze me how many times liberals go to the "stupid redneck" well anytime someone disagrees with a liberal agenda. First of all, if you look for it you'll find plenty of ignorance on both sides of any political argument. That's not hard to do. But to label 2 million people this way that have shown up to demonstrate to the government their disapproval to where their country is headed... that is just ridiculous. Wise up because you're turning your back and dismissing the intelligence, determination, and concern of a vastly growing population in this country.

Furthermore, enough with the hatred, against anyone. Why is it in this country we have to hate some group? Can't hate blacks anymore, can’t hate Hispanics. Wait... I know. Hate the rednecks! I have personally had it with hateful, hurtful labels such as this and its time we move on FROM ALL OF IT. I wouldn't call you stupid, tomwatkins, but I would call you ignorant.

I agree that my post was over the top and I take you point. In reply why do you assume I am a liberal because I support a NHS type system for the US? I disagree with a lot of the Obama agenda and would class myself as middle of the road. I made the point that I lived in the south-what I have observed is different to the North East and hence the redneck comment which I agree is probably too sweeping. My point is that most people have never followed the health debate on either side, left or right. I hope that we can both agree that the current system is a shambles.

If you do not live here and are affected by the current debacle of a sytem on a personal basis then it's difficult to make a rational comment. For all its faults the NHS is far superior than this crap.

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

Demonstrations are pointless, they are only allowed if they illicit no change. Any demo resulting in real change would simply not be allowed to take place.

Remember, the Brits are currently trying to emulate the Yanks, and the Yanks are busy trying to copy Brits from the middle ages. The madness of King George "Bush".

Slaves, or indentured servants are always oblivious to reality. Personally I intend to do"nothing" as I do not need to do anything, the banks and their puppets, central government, are busy destroying their own system. The Yanks are imploding even quicker than us, and they have guns, and lots of them. Expect civil war akin to Iraq and/or the Balkans within a very short time frame.

As for Eugenics, that is what the current system is intended to achieve in the US. I would guess if Obama has any intention it is to simply reduce the money making scam that is private health, it is sucking the last remaining bit of life out of the good ole US of A. The government cannot afford the current system.......................it cannot afford any alternative system either..............the US government is insolvent.

On paper, every government in the developed world is insolvent

This is entirely deliberate

It's also meaningless because the debts are a fiction, the monetary system is a fictionand the legal systems are a fiction.

It's a bit like religion. It only works if people belive in the fairy tale.

The American people are more likely than most to stop believing it.

[SMAC67]

It doesn't matter where you live my friend as long as you are with your loved ones, that is all that matters.

Unfortunately we are all about to be embroiled in circumstances beyond our control. The UK is US Lite, a less fattening version of the Plutocracy currently occuping the lower 48. I think I finally understand why Yanks hate Russian's, it because they were jealous, they now have more in common with the average Soviet citizen than I think they would admit.

Anyway, as an aside, yes it is your patriotic duty to be armed and ready to use deadly force. Unfortunately to date within the US that force is used by citizens on their fellow workers rather than the elites who torment them. So you will probably have to look out for others within your class, the working/debt class always kill colleagues and not management, shame really.

The UK is going to be very interesting live in within a short period of time, think South Africa, but without the good weather. The US is going to be Yugoslavia but without UN intervention.

Should be anything but dull.

[SMAC67]

On paper, every government in the developed world is insolvent

This is entirely deliberate

It's also meaningless because the debts are a fiction, the monetary system is a fictionand the legal systems are a fiction.

It's a bit like religion. It only works if people belive in the fairy tale.

The American people are more likely than most to stop believing it.

I agree with most of your post, the exception being that the average US citizen is an independent rational thinking freedom loving human being. At the moment they are the opposite and I'm not sure how this will change, they all think they are John Brown but in reality they are closer to Nat Turner. Fantasy and reality unfortunately seldom match up.

[tomwatkins]

I don't think the purpose of the monarchy is quite as you understand it.

I think the monarchy is much more powerful and influential than we are led to believe

Debt Slave

I still yearn for a Britain that doesn't exist anymore. What you say about the US makes sense-never short the US as Buffet says. This is a big country albeit with a lot of problems but the UK/US twinning is the biggest joke of all. No comparison apart from the debt scenario and guess which country has the best chance of pulling out first?

1 The country with the reserve currency or the other?

2 The country with still untapped huge reserves of everything including gold or the other?

Etc. etc.

[SMAC67]

"The thousand year Reich", A.Hitler............

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

Debt Slave

I still yearn for a Britain that doesn't exist anymore. What you say about the US makes sense-never short the US as Buffet says. This is a big country albeit with a lot of problems but the UK/US twinning is the biggest joke of all. No comparison apart from the debt scenario and guess which country has the best chance of pulling out first?

1 The country with the reserve currency or the other?

2 The country with still untapped huge reserves of everything including gold or the other?

Etc. etc.

I would plump for America everytime.

However, I'm not sure that the dollar will enjoy reserve currency status

America's biggest asset is its people. That far outweighs any kind of material reserves.

I know from experience that there are still a lot of American people who are good people, enterprising, resourceful who still enjoy a sense of community and doing things for the greater good of all without state intervention and without a profit motive.

In 2007, a huge storm hit my town, Astoria in Oregon. Millions of trees felled, no power across large areas of Clatsop County, roads closed, infrastructure paralized. The people did what they are good at. They gave their time and labour to help eachother out and put things right.

There seem to be alot of people who believe America is going to lay down and die for a bunch of Marxist thugs and greedy bankers. We'll see about that

[D.C.]

I agree with most of your post, the exception being that the average US citizen is an independent rational thinking freedom loving human being. At the moment they are the opposite and I'm not sure how this will change, they all think they are John Brown but in reality they are closer to Nat Turner. Fantasy and reality unfortunately seldom match up.

Did you miss the creationism post a few pages back?

And Bill Still, that 'stupid creationist redneck' was said tongue in cheek, don't take too much offence. The whole 'freedom' thing can (and has) been taken too far imo.

I think us Brits sit somewhere between the US and France, giving up some freedoms for the greater good isn't necessarily a bad thing, if the banks had been less free over the last decade we wouldn't be in the current mess.