Anecdotal

[doogie]

Haven't you heard of something called the "European Working Time Directive"??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All employees in the City are pretty much required to sign the 'optional' opt-out.

[Merryn]

No disrespect, but you live in a different country to me. £30000 is a low wage, and I honestly dont know many people on such low wages unless they are very young or work in a call centre or shop.

I live in UK plc. Have worked on and off for over 30 years as a journalist in regional press, trade press. Hence, very experienced

Was offered a post on a major regional evening newspaper last year. Job title neighbourhood news editor. Salary £16k.

Yes, that is 16 K. My son was earning almost that working for a sandwich making company.

The paper seemed shocked I turned the post down and said they would turn a blind eye if I wanted to do my other bits of freelance work on the side.

Good offer, eh?

I have never earned 30k in my life.

Now tell me how good the Baby Boomers have had it!

:angry:

[Badlad1967]

No disrespect, but you live in a different country to me. £30000 is a low wage, and I honestly dont know many people on such low wages unless they are very young or work in a call centre or shop.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dogbox - I don't know what you're smoking, but I'd be grateful if you'd let me have some of it

[pescouk]

Sh:t the bed.

And I am complaining that i hate my job. No offence intended but people are on some really bad salaries. I am literally shocked.

I left school with a firm kick up the **** (expelled) with no G.C.S.E's and worked as a chef for three years on 16K then decided to go to uni so did an access course (which included minimum GCSE passes and UCAS points. Then i studied at a poly uni (which is ok but not red brick).

I decided to sell my sole and work in recruitment but in my first year i earned £30K. Now in my second year and I have earned £23K in the first 3 months of this financial year (april, may, june) - last months paycheck £14K.

I work in Surrey (not in the city) and am seriously shocked. Admittedly I hate my job but what Iam saying is that if its money you want you need to do a crap job. Recruitment is easy but stressful kinda like Estate Agency I am hated by all.

A good mate of mine works for a local paper and is on £20K for the second in command job. I can't believe employer's are getting away with this crap.

Jesus and the funny thing is that I would struggle buying a house in Richmond - where i live and I am 25 years old with 40K in the bank.

[scavenger2012]

No disrespect, but you live in a different country to me. £30000 is a low wage, and I honestly dont know many people on such low wages unless they are very young or work in a call centre or shop.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

F*cking hell. I do live in a different country to you, dogbox. I wouldn't mind being on such a "low wage". £30,000!!!

I take it you live/work in London then?

[lampkin]

I graduated last July. 2:1 Leisure Computer Technology (Hons). What a mistake of a degree, i dreamed of getting into the games industry, only in the 3rd year do they tell you nobody off that course ever gets into the industry. The degree was a bit of everything though and the main language used was C++.

Anyway i finished uni and after sending out what must have been 50-100 copies of my CV i managed to scrape an ASP job (even though my degree was based mainly on C++ and had covered little ASP, plus ASP is crap) earning a massive £12k. 6 months later they put me on £15k, 3 months later i got a different job as a web developer and am currently on £17k here...seems a way off this £22k average. I am thinking about asking for a rise today..gonna ask for £20k...pray for me!

I really wanted to be an application developer but that link sums it up, junior C++ developer with 2 years exp? So i cant even get a Junior position without getting some experience...how the hell am i supposed to get experience?

Anyhow i think ill start pushing my C# skills in my spare time, my CV lists PHP, C++, Java, ASP, C#, CSS, you name it i'll learn it! not that it helps..

Edited July 18, 2005 by sllabres

[verolution]

i'd try and join an grad recruitment scheme if i were you. go to some of the job fairs in London and have a smooch about. its certainly not too late if you have only been working for a year.

i've picked up great skills (none of which I had previously) from joining a grad scheme that i found at the http://www.londongradfair.co.uk/ .

as much as i hate everyone and their dog moving to london, it might be worth it for a few years to get some experience (both work and play!)

[lampkin]

Damn, just missed the june one. From what i understand doesnt it have to be within a year of leaving uni? seems stupid considering i have one years exp, just like doing work placement really...

Ill take a look though, cheers.

Seb

[pescouk]

I graduated last July.  2:1 Leisure Computer Technology (Hons). What a mistake of a degree, i dreamed of getting into the games industry, only in the 3rd year do they tell you nobody off that course ever gets into the industry.    The degree was a bit of everything though and the main language used was C++.

Anyway i finished uni and after sending out what must have been 50-100 copies of my CV i managed to scrape an ASP job (even though my degree was based mainly on C++ and had covered little ASP, plus ASP is crap) earning a massive £12k.  6 months later they put me on £15k, 3 months later i got a different job as a web developer and am currently on £17k here...seems a way off this £22k average.  I am thinking about asking for a rise today..gonna ask for £20k...pray for me!

I really wanted to be an application developer but that link sums it up, junior C++ developer with 2 years exp? So i cant even get a Junior position without getting some experience...how the hell am i supposed to get experience?

Anyhow i think ill start pushing my C# skills in my spare time, my CV lists PHP, C++, Java, ASP, C#, CSS, you name it i'll learn it! not that it helps..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try Eidos (based in London) EA Games, Akclaim (based in West London) - used to amke mortal combat i think. My mate works at Eidos and although he doesnt get that much money he absolutely loves his job. He got a desmond (2.2) in computer science and had to start on £12K testing games but as i say he loves it and is now on circa £25K after 4 years service. Gets alot of travel and gets to play games alot.

[Del_Piero]

I started work in London back in 98 on £11K. Now risen to £28K with car and benifits but the first of my friends to break the magic £30K worked for a charity!!

Now you know where all your dosh goes when you get accosted by the collection box mafia.

[NervousFTBer]

Hey sllabres

I'm sorry to hear about your uni course and the promises they made about work prospects afterwards. I'm a freelance 3d artist, and work in film, broadcast and games for about 6 years, although more recent work has been focus on film stuff.

I can only really comment on the art side and not so much programming. But It's really tough to get into these industries (as many other industries of course ), when i started there was only a few courses in europe, I went to Bournemouth uni, but these days there is a course at every college/uni/etc promising you a job afterwards.

In general, a small proportion of graduates get jobs in the industry to begin with, I think given the vast quantity of new grads that seem to pop up every year there is just too many of them, and hardly any positions that need filling. You best bet is to become a teacher instead !

Games do seem to treat their staff better than film/facilities (in general) but don't expect high wages, those days are over. Expect wages to start low if you don't have the required experience, but don't lose heart, i know it's a difficult road, and as you say a circle of needing experience even for junior roles, but there are jobs out there and always a need for good programmers , artists, etc

Hope that helps alittle... just have to keep trying.... experienced programmers get paid a very good wage too, and always seem to be in demand

ps. Working time what? I've been doing 6 day weeks lately don't get a choice at all..... but am looking to escape soon !!!!

[RichM]

A few points:

1) Definitely agree about the single mum scam, I see loads of families for my job where the mum has a b/f, "but he doesn't live here, honest", yeah right. Can't get annoyed with them, not professional

2) Dogbox, there is a kernel of truth in what you say, but the reality in London is that the numbers of Polish immigrants will have pulled trades salaries down. If you work for yourself and are into BTL (I can't remember if you were or not) then obviously you would meet more of those sorts of people. Most people are in very carefully controlled jobs however, with contracts, pay schemes, promotions, PAYE, etc etc.

Fiddling the social seems to be the major way of getting ahead for many folk. :angry:

3) My wife and I take home 3.5K a month post-tax; after rent (800), loans (480), bills, Jah, etc etc we don't end up with very much to save. Went for the second meal of our married life yesterday (excluding pub lunches, train station MacDonalds, that sort of thing). We are better off than many people we know and so help them out occasionally.

We are worrying about buying a car, a cheap crappy one, for crying out loud. Insurance would be 100 quid a month, even for a pile for crap! Of course, you are subsidising muppets who can't be very @rsed to get insurance :angry: :angry: :angry:

Blair's Britain is a grim place for people who are competent, young, and not scabbing off the state. But don't dwell on the fact, it will make you ill. Spend time on here with like-minded people, save what you can, and wait. The forthcoming crash is also a great opportunity if you position yourself right.

4) I know some people in well paid jobs, but they are few and far between. One mate got a pukka job with a prominent management consultancy. (Didn't do so well with his degree but very good with people and gets stuff done. Not an academic like clever old me. This private sector stuff can't be too hard. ) Overtime was scrapped for all employees within a year of being there. He lives in a hotel in a European city, dashing back for weekends. A slightly odd lifestyle.

He's probably doing OK now for money. But other than that my peer group are doing OK but not spectacularly. HPI has made us all paupers.

5) Doing a job no one wants to do is key. Journalism is too popular. A lot of famous journalists add to their income by playing on their name.

I am lucky in that I work in an area that I enjoy and is rewarding, but if I stopped tomorrow the world would carry on, and other people would love to take my job. With more training I will be in a better position to command a higher salary, the odd bit of private work, etc, and improve my lot. I think I am lucky in that I have a fairly trade-off between work/life/pay.

Sadly too many graduates still see their degree as being a golden ticket. Had they learnt a trade or opted for something dull, even a lorry driver for crying out loud (no offence to lorry drivers, but you hardly need to do a three year degree for the work), they would have been better off. But there you are. Such is life.

6) This is a site for financially literate/wise people. One would hope that more city/high-earning types would turn up here! Don' get despondent if you don't earn megabucks!

Edited July 18, 2005 by RichM

[verolution]

Damn, just missed the june one.  From what i understand doesnt it have to be within a year of leaving uni? seems stupid considering i have one years exp, just like doing work placement really...

Ill take a look though, cheers.

Seb

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i wouldn't worry about the graduated in last year thing, i don't think most employers would be bothered! if i was looking for a grad for my team and someone came along with a years exp i'd be more likely to go for them.

if you need to lie to get in the fair do it, just don't on your cv!

i'd also add that if you don't have much exp forget agencies and just send off cv's direct to companies. agencies are only interested if they can make money out of you, which is unlikely if you don't have decent exp.

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

A book came out last year called the Mismanagement of Talent. The authors found that the average graduate startign salary, if you include ALL graduates (not blue-chip milkdrounders) the starting salary is a whoppin' 12.5k.

So if you have a degree in computer wizardry and earn, say, 17.5 - we'll you're really going places.

Months back I saw a job with a household name ecommerce site. They wanted someone with at a years commercial experience of Cold Fusion (whatever the freak that is) and SQL programming. A huge 17.5k. Now, I don't know where that comes in the pecking order of IT jobs, but that's only a couple of K more than an admin assistant or customer services jobs requiring nothing more than basic office skills.

To echo what RichM says, of all the people from Uni and Sixth Form college I know about, only one or two have well-paid, above average, careers. The vast majority (now all in the mid-late 20s) are probably at least several k short of the mean average wage - these are people with strong A levels and good degrees at middle-of-the-road to prestigious Unis.

Many have siblings who were the 'non accademic ones' that have more money and bought humble homes in the late ninties before the bulk of the rises. Of course there's a general feeling of 'what was the point?', especially as many had a crippling debt hangover.

Edited July 18, 2005 by CrashedOutAndBurned

[verolution]

i graduated with a 1st in software engineering from a decent uni in 2001. i had secured the first job i went for on the milk round which was working with ericcson messing around with neat gadgets and phones . unfortunately they tanked just before i started and i got made redundant (with 1 months pay ) without ever doing a days work!

then it took me 6 months after that to find another job! bearing in mind i'm pretty presentable, amiable and good at interviews it was pretty deseperate. in the end i got a job in banking which was better than ericsson but most (nearly all) of my peers weren't so lucky and went into mediocre jobs.

i would seriously consider not going to uni these days given all the costs. i ended up with 10k debt and that was with a full grant and no tuition fees (ok 9k of that debt was beer ).

[the don]

i graduated with a 1st in software engineering from a decent uni in 2001. i had secured the first job i went for on the milk round which was working with ericcson messing around with neat gadgets and phones  . unfortunately they tanked just before i started and i got made redundant (with 1 months pay  ) without ever doing a days work!

then it took me 6 months after that to find another job! bearing in mind i'm pretty presentable, amiable and good at interviews it was pretty deseperate. in the end i got a job in banking which was better than ericsson but most (nearly all) of my peers weren't so lucky and went into mediocre jobs.

i would seriously consider not going to uni these days given all the costs. i ended up with 10k debt and that was with a full grant and no tuition fees (ok 9k of that debt was beer  ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

mescaline monkey

looks like the 9k was a good investment but i guess you frittered away the last 1k.

[RichM]

i graduated with a 1st in software engineering from a decent uni in 2001. i had secured the first job i went for on the milk round which was working with ericcson messing around with neat gadgets and phones  . unfortunately they tanked just before i started and i got made redundant (with 1 months pay  ) without ever doing a days work!

then it took me 6 months after that to find another job! bearing in mind i'm pretty presentable, amiable and good at interviews it was pretty deseperate. in the end i got a job in banking which was better than ericsson but most (nearly all) of my peers weren't so lucky and went into mediocre jobs.

i would seriously consider not going to uni these days given all the costs. i ended up with 10k debt and that was with a full grant and no tuition fees (ok 9k of that debt was beer  ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're not from Bristol are you?

[andrew_uk]

Being a graduate doesn't mean that much any more. Where i work (Midlands) most of the junior office staff have degrees, work far too hard in a stressful job for 12-16K.

We prefer attitude to qualifications and seem to like those without degree's as we can pay them less and train them up.

As for 30K being standard for London I agree. I know that the difference between the midlands and London is at least 10K probably more like 15K in terms of cost of living.

I think this will get worse as I know lots of people planning to start or mid way through university who believe this 30K lie. they leave with 10-15K of debt and then find the best salary is 13K around here or 20K in London (which is even worse).

I just feel very very lucky that I did a proper degree (IT), did it before tuition fees appeared and was in the industry during Y2K.

I taught an evening class in IT (VB) for 2 years which attracted a lot of people planning on going to Uni (The college lecturers advised them to do my class) there salary expectations were mad.

Damn I do feel sorry for those going to Uni at the moment.

[Mushroom]

Whilst I can see the logic of an "educated" population I, for my part, have always questioned how the economy can provide what is seen as graduate level salaries

for some 40% of the population.

Put simply, there is still one cake.

Edit, apologies for glitch, dialup timed out.

Edited July 18, 2005 by Mushroom

[verolution]

You're not from Bristol are you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no i grew up in London and still live here (yep a rare breed these days!)

[Fancypants]

Games do seem to treat their staff better than film/facilities (in general) but don't expect high wages, those days are over. Expect wages to start low if you don't have the required experience, but don't lose heart, i know it's a difficult road, and as you say a circle of needing experience even for junior roles, but there are jobs out there and always a need for good programmers , artists, etc

Hope that helps alittle... just have to keep trying.... experienced programmers get paid a very good wage too, and always seem to be in demand 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

very true - a good friend of mine is having trouble adjusting to the new reality. He dropped out of uni in 94 (is now 30) and a year or so later started games testing for an abysmally low wage - however, after a few years of working pretty hard, he was getting close to £30k plus bonuses - and this in the NW, so a pretty bloody good wage for an unqualified lad in his late 20s.

Sadly, just over a year ago he got made redundant - admittedly the writing was on the wall for a while, and since then he's struggled to find work in that field. OK part of this is due to the fact that he has an inflated view of his own worth after the gold-rush years, and won't accept the fact that he is highly unlikely to get even close to the previous wage - the industry is in dire straits in this country.

Needless to say, he also ran up frightening debts in the years he was on good wedge... with sadly little to show for it.

I really wish he would get his head round the fact that it will probably be a long road back, the longer he leaves it the harder it will be

[RichM]

no i grew up in London and still live here (yep a rare breed these days!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, nevermind, just sounded like someone I know.

Sarf London, or lardy-dah North of the river?

North of the river is for wimps.

[mhifoe]

We are worrying about buying a car, a cheap crappy one, for crying out loud. Insurance would be 100 quid a month, even for a pile for crap! Of course, you are subsidising muppets who can't be very @rsed to get insurance  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

Surely insurance shouldn't cost that much?

I am 28 and pay 270 quid a year on an old Sierra (group 12 though).

My bosses son recently got a quote which was about £100 a month. However he is a 19 year old student without no claims and the insurance is fully comp on a 2 year old Clio.

[RichM]

Wife wants to start learning (again!) and I have always scabbed by dad's car...

Elephant.co.uk did do half the quote of others; 600 as opposed to 1100-1200.

That for a 12 year old car mind!

[andrew_uk]

Wife wants to start learning (again!) and I have always scabbed by dad's car...

Elephant.co.uk did do half the quote of others; 600 as opposed to 1100-1200.

That for a 12 year old car mind!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Direct line is very good on price both low end cars and performance. Definately try them. Most shocking when I rang to convert my insurance over to a new car the additional (for 6 mths) was half my online quote e.g. they don't screw you over even when it's easy for them to do so.