How To Stop The Government Screwing Us

[waitingscot]

I never got into a load of debt. Instead I worked hard, saved my money and rented. I lived within my means.

Now the government is debasing the currency and devaluing my savings in order to bail out the very people who took on too much debt and caused house prices to rise with their liar loans and drove the system to the edge of collapse.

What can we do about it?

I am self-employed and pay my tax in full. I have never fiddled the numbers. This year I paid over £8000. But I feel like a mug when bankers and politicans are ripping us off left, right and centre and here am I paying my way. But I won't break the law. Is there anything I can do within the law?

Then I think, it's true what I heard someone say: if you don't like what the government is doing why not simply refuse to use their money?

How could this work?

Why not return to a barter system and cut the state clean out of the equation?

In complex societies such as ours we come rely on currency to function, and we will always have to rely on money for many transactions no matter what. Nevertheless are we overlooking opportunities to barter instead of using £s?

In the Internet age with eBay and freecycle and other online networks there is more scope for networking locally with producers and providers of services so that we can exchange goods and services without using the government's debased paper and incurring tax.

Is this already happening? Could it be scaled up using the Internet? Is it legal? Would it be crushed by the state if it got off the ground?

I sell books. Instead of buying eggs and milk at Tesco, could I arrange to give a local farmer the books he wants, and I can have eggs and milk. And if the barber is looking for a certain book, if I can find it for him would he accept that as payment rather than money?

I don't think the government or its notes deserve our trust any more, nor do they deserve their cut. Could this be the start of a revolution at the community level?

[j3-ox]

Unfortunately with a barter system you still have to pay tax.

in cash!

They just work out what the cash equivalent is!!

[Austin Allegro]

Whilst I agree with you in principle, I am pretty sure bartering is subject to taxation just like cash transactions; it's just harder to trace.

[Thread Killer]

That would not avoid tax.

You would get assessed for tax based on the monetary equivalent of the value of the services/products being bartered. In fact that is what gives money value in the first place - the demand for it resulting from a need to make tax payments.

As a current example consider benefits in kind at work: If you are given a free plane ticket or company car or company travel season ticket this is often considered to be a "benefit in kind" and you are sent a tax bill for it.

The only way this could work is if you could hide the existance of the bartering. But that would be tax evasion.

[D.C.]

Governments can change currencies because they decide item X is legal tender and good for the payment of taxes.

If you do not pay your taxes in item X, they will come and take your possessions by force.

This has been true for many, many thousands of years.

[waitingscot]

Drat there is no escaping the state.

Unfortunately with a barter system you still have to pay tax.

in cash!

They just work out what the cash equivalent is!!

[Austin Allegro]

One way might be to avoid as many taxes as possible; eg, buy second hand (no VAT), cycle instead of own a car, make your own wine, etc. This is pretty much what I do anyway.

[Johnny Storm]

The only way this could work is if you could hide the existance of the bartering. But that would be tax evasion.

And of couse no one does that, be a good sheep and be fleeced. What did you get for your £8000 OP?

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

I never got into a load of debt. Instead I worked hard, saved my money and rented. I lived within my means.

Now the government is debasing the currency and devaluing my savings in order to bail out the very people who took on too much debt and caused house prices to rise with their liar loans and drove the system to the edge of collapse.

What can we do about it?

I am self-employed and pay my tax in full. I have never fiddled the numbers. This year I paid over £8000. But I feel like a mug when bankers and politicans are ripping us off left, right and centre and here am I paying my way. But I won't break the law. Is there anything I can do within the law?

Then I think, it's true what I heard someone say: if you don't like what the government is doing why not simply refuse to use their money?

How could this work?

Why not return to a barter system and cut the state clean out of the equation?

In complex societies such as ours we come rely on currency to function, and we will always have to rely on money for many transactions no matter what. Nevertheless are we overlooking opportunities to barter instead of using £s?

In the Internet age with eBay and freecycle and other online networks there is more scope for networking locally with producers and providers of services so that we can exchange goods and services without using the government's debased paper and incurring tax.

Is this already happening? Could it be scaled up using the Internet? Is it legal? Would it be crushed by the state if it got off the ground?

I sell books. Instead of buying eggs and milk at Tesco, could I arrange to give a local farmer the books he wants, and I can have eggs and milk. And if the barber is looking for a certain book, if I can find it for him would he accept that as payment rather than money?

I don't think the government or its notes deserve our trust any more, nor do they deserve their cut. Could this be the start of a revolution at the community level?

If people were more prepared to make sacrifices, we could totally screw their system.

I refuse to drive a car anymore. I haven't used a car for nearly 2 years. If a million people simply refused to drive their cars for a whole month, they'd lose a fortune in tax revenues.

The most obvious one is just refuse to use bank credit. Do without some material things bought on the plastic. That'd fekk them up the ar$e too.

People are so disempowered but actually, people power is pretty powerful. People just don't use it cos they think 'everything will be fine'

Thus the rape and looting goes on.

And the recession over folks. Normal service is resumed. How fekkn tragic that people believe this B/S

[SarahBell]

Stop earning money. You pay less tax that way

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

Stop earning money. You pay less tax that way

Becoming a dole bludger, claiming Housing benefit and having 6 chavs almost seems like a great idea dunnit?

[shindigger]

Stop earning money. You pay less tax that way

Correct.

Remove the NEED to earn shitloads of cash.

[dandandan]

Ive been doing something similar for ages.. as a graphic designer i often get asked to do stuff more often than not in exchange for goods or services. i own a classic car and wanted a new part, a company that supplied the part wanted an ad making so in exchange for designing them an advert i got the part i wanted at a discount... the labour involved in both processes was roughly the same and all i paid was the basic cost for materials (at trade prices)

the net result is that the fella got an advert that was more successful than any he'd previously ran and i got the part i wanted for far less than i could have bought it for... tax wise it appeared as him selling me some raw materials at the price he bought them for.. not cutting out the government entirely but certainly a lot less than him paying me for my time and vise versa.

my parents own a farm and its very regular for them to trade goods with fellow farmers on a like for like basis... not so easy if your job is not actually producing anything though

[Harry Sacks]

I never got into a load of debt. Instead I worked hard, saved my money and rented. I lived within my means.

Now the government is debasing the currency and devaluing my savings in order to bail out the very people who took on too much debt and caused house prices to rise with their liar loans and drove the system to the edge of collapse.

What can we do about it?

I am self-employed and pay my tax in full. I have never fiddled the numbers. This year I paid over £8000. But I feel like a mug when bankers and politicans are ripping us off left, right and centre and here am I paying my way. But I won't break the law. Is there anything I can do within the law?

Then I think, it's true what I heard someone say: if you don't like what the government is doing why not simply refuse to use their money?

How could this work?

Why not return to a barter system and cut the state clean out of the equation?

In complex societies such as ours we come rely on currency to function, and we will always have to rely on money for many transactions no matter what. Nevertheless are we overlooking opportunities to barter instead of using £s?

In the Internet age with eBay and freecycle and other online networks there is more scope for networking locally with producers and providers of services so that we can exchange goods and services without using the government's debased paper and incurring tax.

Is this already happening? Could it be scaled up using the Internet? Is it legal? Would it be crushed by the state if it got off the ground?

I sell books. Instead of buying eggs and milk at Tesco, could I arrange to give a local farmer the books he wants, and I can have eggs and milk. And if the barber is looking for a certain book, if I can find it for him would he accept that as payment rather than money?

I don't think the government or its notes deserve our trust any more, nor do they deserve their cut. Could this be the start of a revolution at the community level?

Are you aware of LETS, the Totnes Pound, for example?

We could do what you suggest. We need to get the trust back. Trusting each other within communities, enough to establish our own currencies. The current system destroys trust, creates cynicism and has us hopelessly competing.

In Bill's film,The Secret of Oz, he explains Baum's meaning behind the characters with regards to monetary reform - they held the power all along.

The film is well worth a look by the way. See my sig.

[Guest Skinty]

Stop earning money. You pay less tax that way

And often get a better quality of life. I've always found that if I go for the maximum wage I can then my quality of life decreases disproportionately to the extra amount I earn,. One of the main reasons of this is the higher tax that I end up paying. I often end up feeling poorer the more I earn because of the increased living expenses.

The easiest way to earn less money is to move somewhere cheaper.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Skinty

[JosephHoward]

unfortunately not many people need JCL writing so I can't really barter :angry:

[dr ray]

Freecycle works to a degree because no money changes hands and its gifting rather than bartering. We use it at home but it does depend on a degree of altruism. We gave away a load of childrens wellies and got a TV for someone else. Government got FA.

The problem with barter is that your barber or butcher might not be interested in books but likes porn DVDs so you have nothing to barter. If you could pay him with a token which can be exchanged for porn, it would work but he would have to trust you that the token has the value you say it has and unlike say, a gift voucher, will not expire after a given date. Alternatively, if he doesn't trust your fiat currency, you could use something which everyone would want and thus has an intrinsic value whatever trust he has of you.

A lump of nice shiny metal would do.

Edited September 9, 2009 by dr ray

[Traktion]

AFAIK, there are community/alternative currencies out there already, although the governments tend to be a bit twitchy about them for obvious reasons. I linked up an article the other day about the US government stopping Liberty Dollars under counterfeiting laws, even though they were completely different notes etc.

One thought though - if you float an alternative currency (say, HPC pounds) against Sterling (ie. the value is decided by supply/demand) and Sterling debases, you will be paying proportionately less tax (you will get more Sterling for your HPC pounds).

The problem is, getting such a currency established. If regions decide to try out such schemes, it could get very interesting. There would be questions as to how much should be in circulation, who gets to decide and such though, otherwise you will have inflation/deflation problems. E.g. If it goes from 2 businesses to 20 businesses, but the supply remains unchanged, the currency will gain value (monetary deflation).

It can work though: If shop A knows that pub B is happy with the HPC pound, and the opposite is true, A and B have given the currency value. i.e. A knows it can buy beer at B and B can buy goods at A. Essentially, people are swapping their productivity for another's, with the HPC pound being a token, or an IOU. I believe this has happened already at the town level in places before.

I think there may be a few Internet currencies out there too, but I haven't had chance to look into it further. If banks had to use their own currencies, instead of Sterling, alternative currencies could quickly become established. If money was converted from bank money to Sterling on withdrawal, there would be little infrastructure change required either.

[dr ray]

Essentially, people are swapping their productivity for another's,

Interesting concept. If there is an exchange then there is no profit and there should therefore be no tax. Peter Schiff's father has been arguing that work is the exchange of labour for money so no profit is involved and that it is the profit on the product of the labour that should be taxed and not the labour itself. He won a couple of cases before he was locked up.

[garybug]

• Cash everything in
  
• Load up on debt, take it as cash
  
• Buy PM's
  
• Quit your job
  
• Disappear
  
• Squat / live in a shared house paying minimum rent to a shifty landlord / grateful OAP who will keep quiet
  
• Work on the side for cash only
  

Very tempted myself (if it wasn't for the other half of course )

[huw]

The only way this could work is if you could hide the existance of the bartering. But that would be tax evasion.

What if the barter was not formalised, but based on the mutual obligation of doing and returning favours?

[koala bear]

There's a whole community of us out here thinking along exactly the same lines!

The best way to screw them is to stop buying their useless consumer crap, grow as much of your own food as possible and swap seeds, cycle everywhere, put your savings in the name of a trusted non-income-earning family member, explore becoming a non-Dom (they may not bring in the new tax), defer any necessary purchases until shortly before you travel abroad and claim back the VAT, join Freecycle and a Compactor group, swap stuff with friends.

[D.C.]

What if the barter was not formalised, but based on the mutual obligation of doing and returning favours?

It would collapse as soon as someone decided to take advantage of all you mugs.

You wouldn't know for ages as there isn't a record of activity in a non-formalised system.

Or you would go to prison after giving him a good kicking

[Austin Allegro]

It would collapse as soon as someone decided to take advantage of all you mugs.

You wouldn't know for ages as there isn't a record of activity in a non-formalised system.

Or you would go to prison after giving him a good kicking

I agree. I think it is only viable to opt out of the system in certain areas, not to seek to overthrow it. At best we would be fiddled on a scale equal to or greater than we are at the moment. At worst we would end up in a society like something out of Waterworld, with HM revenue inspector being like Dennis Hopper, only with less charisma.

[hounslow]

M King Hubbert (founder of Peak Oil theory) wrote an essay which included a theory of an alternative to money as we know it.

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...t&p=1990609

On this basis our distribution then becomes foolproof and incredibly simple. We keep our records of the physical costs of production in terms of the amount of extraneous energy degraded. We set industrial production arbitarily at a rate equal to the saturation of the physical capacity of our public to consume.

We distribute purchasing power in the form of energy certificates to the public, the amount issued to each being equivalent to his pro rata share of the energy-cost of the consumer goods and services to be purchased during the balanced-load period for which the certificates are issued.

These certificates bear the identification of the person to whom issued and are non-negotiable. They resemble a bank check in that they bear no face denomination, this being entered at the time of spending. They are surrendered upon the purchase of goods or services at any center of distribution and are permanently cancelled, becoming entries in a uniform accounting system.

Being non-negotiable they cannot be lost, stolen, gambled or given away because they are invalid in the hands of any person other than the one to whom issued. They can only be spent.

Contrary to the Price System rules, the purchasing power of an individual is no longer based upon the fallacious premise

that a man is being paid in proportion to the so called "value" of his work (since it is a physical fact that what he receives is greatly in excess of his physical effort) but upon the pro rata division of the net energy degraded in the production of consumer goods and services.

In this manner the income of an individual is in nowise dependent upon the nature of his work, and we are then free to reduce the working hours of our population to as low a level as technological advancement will allow, without in any manner jeopardizing the national or individual income, and without the slightest unemployment problem or poverty."

According to Robert L. Hickerson, writing on a web site dedicated to M. King Hubbert's work:

"Hubbert goes on to state that following a transition the work required of each individual, need be no longer than about 4 hours a day, 164 days per year, from the ages of 25 to 45. Income will continue until death. 'Insecurity of old age is abolished and both saving and insurance become unnecessary and impossible.

Just found this link which again features Hubbert:

http://www.hubbertpeak.com/Hubbert/monetary.htm

Edited September 9, 2009 by hounslow