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Guest Skinty

England's Weak Culture

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Guest Skinty

I propose that even if all the immigrants were magically transported out of England that it would not be enough to solve the country's problems. Unfettered immigration and the lack of integration is actually a symptom of some deeper ill within the country. I propose that it is because England has a weak cultural identity. I also propose that the obsession with property, leading an aspirational lifestyle and consuming is a major contributing factor of this weakness.

Think of a culture like an immune system that neutralises foreign organisms. When your immune system is weak then you are less able to fight off any invading organisms and they start to take over.

People often argue that you can't wear skimpy clothes or build a christian church in Saudia Arabia. But that's because Saudi Arabia has a very strong set of cultural values. If England had a stronger cultural identity and set of values then not only would politicians not be able to get away with unfettered immigration, but the immigrants that did come over would also integrate properly, as happened with the first generation in the 50's.

Even if the immigrants were all sent home, England would just adopt other cultural values, say from watching American television. What does it mean nowadays to be English? And by English, I don't mean British. I also do not mean Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish which have fewer issues with immigration than England. Nor do I mean some icon from the 40's or 50's such as the spitfire or the Battle of Britain, street parties or the royal family. What does it mean now, at the end of the noughties to be English?

From what I can gather it means working to consume.

One of the major causes of this lack of identity is that the culture has been sold out so that we can consume more. People's obsession with house prices, buying and selling houses and leading aspirational lifestyles has helped destroy the culture. You cannot have a sense of community if you are existing in a small slave box surrounded by other people, none of whom know each other and will be moving on in a year's time anyway as they fight their way up the property ladder.

If the culture was stronger, politicians would also have a much clearer idea of what would appeal to what group of voters. Politics today is a popularity contest. Politicians act not out of some deeper purpose, but by considering what the media report and the focus groups suggest will be popular.

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I propose that even if all the immigrants were magically transported out of England that it would not be enough to solve the country's problems. Unfettered immigration and the lack of integration is actually a symptom of some deeper ill within the country. I propose that it is because England has a weak cultural identity. I also propose that the obsession with property, leading an aspirational lifestyle and consuming is a major contributing factor of this weakness.

Think of a culture like an immune system that neutralises foreign organisms. When your immune system is weak then you are less able to fight off any invading organisms and they start to take over.

People often argue that you can't wear skimpy clothes or build a christian church in Saudia Arabia. But that's because Saudi Arabia has a very strong set of cultural values. If England had a stronger cultural identity and set of values then not only would politicians not be able to get away with unfettered immigration, but the immigrants that did come over would also integrate properly, as happened with the first generation in the 50's.

Even if the immigrants were all sent home, England would just adopt other cultural values, say from watching American television. What does it mean nowadays to be English? And by English, I don't mean British. I also do not mean Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish which have fewer issues with immigration than England. Nor do I mean some icon from the 40's or 50's such as the spitfire or the Battle of Britain, street parties or the royal family. What does it mean now, at the end of the noughties to be English?

From what I can gather it means working to consume.

One of the major causes of this lack of identity is that the culture has been sold out so that we can consume more. People's obsession with house prices, buying and selling houses and leading aspirational lifestyles has helped destroy the culture. You cannot have a sense of community if you are existing in a small slave box surrounded by other people, none of whom know each other and will be moving on in a year's time anyway as they fight their way up the property ladder.

If the culture was stronger, politicians would also have a much clearer idea of what would appeal to what group of voters. Politics today is a popularity contest. Politicians act not out of some deeper purpose, but by considering what the media report and the focus groups suggest will be popular.

thing is though - to be english is to be a mixture of cultures surely

i would love to be able to trace my roots back to the english celtic queen boudica and the iceni tribe*, but i was born to londoner parents who's ancestry was part scots, irish, english and jewish and my surname is of french origin so i tend not to get myself worked up to much about identity and cultural expression

*blame it on the romans

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There have been debates in the past about this and what it means to be British or English.

There is no answer and THAT is exactly the problem. The fact that we cannot state what it is to be English shows that something is probably wrong in our society.

On the otherhand, what on earth do other nationalities say when asked this question i.e. what does it mean to be Scottish ? What does it mean to be Polish ? What does it mean to be Indian ?

Seems like the whole world had lost its identity..

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From what I can gather it means working to consume.

What a thought provoking post. i dont know what the answer is, but it seems to be that we have been dumbed and beaten down to kinda of a blah culture. Most people dont care what happens here, and a lot want to leave. Its clear that England as a nation does not care about its people, and that in turn has lead the people not to care back. (Im not saying its any different in other countries.)

I guess we have a culture of tolerance. And I dont mean welcoming cave men cultures by that. I mean putting up with sh*t. The weather is crap, the people are dumb, we are taxed and stolen from at every turn. Man I hate this place.

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable

Red corduroy trousers held up with an old school Full Colours tie, Brogues, yellow socks and a fraying shirt.

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Bring back school sports day.

I won the cricket ball throwing and the obstacle race(whilst eating a dry cream cracker :blink: ).

Twas the makin of me, i say twas the makin of meh...

Egg and Spoon? Three legged hijinx? Oh mummy it stings? Marvellous.

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From what I can gather it means working to consume.

Your culture is whatever the advert tells you it is.

"A mars a day helps you work rest and play." - 1965

"Snap! Crackle! Pop!" - 1932

"Have a break. Have a Kit-Kat." - 1957

"Because I'm worth it." - 1967

Been like that for a while now... :(

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Guest Skinty
thing is though - to be english is to be a mixture of cultures surely

i would love to be able to trace my roots back to the english celtic queen boudica and the iceni tribe*, but i was born to londoner parents who's ancestry was part scots, irish, english and jewish and my surname is of french origin so i tend not to get myself worked up to much about identity and cultural expression

There is not a 1:1 mapping between genetics and cultural identity. A particular genetic background may be a common feature but the overriding requirement is that you share it's cultural values. This most often happens because you have been bought up in the country and have adopted the social norms.

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Guest DisposableHeroes
Your culture is whatever the advert tells you it is.

"A mars a day helps you work rest and play." - 1965

"Snap! Crackle! Pop!" - 1932

"Have a break. Have a Kit-Kat." - 1957

"Because I'm worth it." - 1967

Been like that for a while now... :(

"A finger of fudge is just enough to give yourself a treat" - 1980's

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I propose that even if all the immigrants were magically transported out of England that it would not be enough to solve the country's problems. Unfettered immigration and the lack of integration is actually a symptom of some deeper ill within the country. I propose that it is because England has a weak cultural identity. I also propose that the obsession with property, leading an aspirational lifestyle and consuming is a major contributing factor of this weakness.

I think what you are saying is that our culture is not strong enough to 'impose itself' on immigrants. Maybe the PC brigade are to blame for this - they would have people believe that you should be ashamed to feel English for God's sake!

But lets face it, it isn't only them. Look what happened at the recent elections where the BNP increased their vote significantly. Did the politicians accept the fact that uncontrolled immigration plus a bad attitude towards the relative rights of the indigenous population caused this? Like hell they did - they stuck their heads in the sand and pretended it wasn't happening. In fact they tried to make people feel guilty or stupid for voting BNP! The problem is that they know that people in the UK are generally pretty tolerant and most believe in democracy so the chances of the BNP threatening a real breakthrough is unlikely. So I'd say it isn't weakness on the English part which causes the country's problems - its that most of us are decent people and our politicans take advantage of us - unfortunately decent people are often taken advantage of aren't they...... :angry:

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable
I think what you are saying is that our culture is not strong enough to 'impose itself' on immigrants. Maybe the PC brigade are to blame for this - they would have people believe that you should be ashamed to feel English for God's sake!

But lets face it, it isn't only them. Look what happened at the recent elections where the BNP increased their vote significantly. Did the politicians accept the fact that uncontrolled immigration plus a bad attitude towards the relative rights of the indigenous population caused this? Like hell they did - they stuck their heads in the sand and pretended it wasn't happening. In fact they tried to make people feel guilty or stupid for voting BNP! The problem is that they know that people in the UK are generally pretty tolerant and most believe in democracy so the chances of the BNP threatening a real breakthrough is unlikely. So I'd say it isn't weakness on the English part which causes the country's problems - its that most of us are decent people and our politicans take advantage of us - unfortunately decent people are often taken advantage of aren't they...... :angry:

If my grandfather could keep a couple of thoroughbred Africans in his garden shed, to do his bidding, on meagre rations, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to, today.

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Guest Skinty
But lets face it, it isn't only them. Look what happened at the recent elections where the BNP increased their vote significantly. Did the politicians accept the fact that uncontrolled immigration plus a bad attitude towards the relative rights of the indigenous population caused this? Like hell they did - they stuck their heads in the sand and pretended it wasn't happening. In fact they tried to make people feel guilty or stupid for voting BNP! The problem is that they know that people in the UK are generally pretty tolerant and most believe in democracy so the chances of the BNP threatening a real breakthrough is unlikely. So I'd say it isn't weakness on the English part which causes the country's problems - its that most of us are decent people and our politicans take advantage of us - unfortunately decent people are often taken advantage of aren't they...... :angry:

True. But who voted in the politicians and what did they promise in order to get voted in?

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If my grandfather could keep a couple of thoroughbred Africans in his garden shed, to do his bidding, on meagre rations, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to, today.

:lol::lol::lol::lol: (I take it you are joking?) Seriously though this isn't about racism - until politicans understand and can separate the arguments of immigration, mutual cultural respect and racism which are frankly different issues entirely this problem will carry on. All I'm saying is I don't think they will ever look at the first two issues seriously as they assume (probably rightly) that people are too democratic/decent to vote BNP at a general election.

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On the otherhand, what on earth do other nationalities say when asked this question i.e. what does it mean to be Scottish ? What does it mean to be Polish ? What does it mean to be Indian ?

Seems like the whole world had lost its identity..

I dunno.... I was watching NHK television channel today (that's the Japanese version of BBC (but without the licence). There was a news clip of 6-year-old school children north of Tokyo getting muddy in a paddy field and learning all about how the national staple food is grown.

What would that be like in England if England was as nationalistic as Japan? Well, in our parallel-universe TV item, the English kiddies would be in a potatoe field learning what it's like to dig up spuds. They would be able to look at a map of England and tell you which shire is associated with which variety of spud. In the background would be an 80-year-old gran who has been growing potatos since the war, and after the lesson she would tell the school children how growing potatos helped with the war effort. Back in the studio, there would be a quick lesson on potato-eating etiquette and then a pan across to the studio kitchen where an actor dressed up in a potato suit with an apron would show another group of children how to cook a simple dish using potatos.

And the BBC would have been presenting the same TV clip (with different kids each year) each year since TV broadcasting began. Plus, your Mum would all tell you (with a beam in her eye) about her potato field trip in 1951.

And that is just about potatos. You wait until they get on to the subject of the Royal Family in our alternative England....

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I would say that the English have such a strong culture that it has spread worldwide and thus we don't recognise it as our own any more. e.g. the English Language.

I must admit to having a chuckle when an Irishman told me in his native tongue (English - he couldn't speak Irish) that the English don't have any culture. Classic!

A few other aspects of English (possibly British) culture that the world seems to have appropriated but we should recognise as our own:

Cricket, Rugby, Football, Tennis and just about every other team game played in the world.

Music - bands too numerous to mention.

Legal system

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Guest eight
True. But who voted in the politicians and what did they promise in order to get voted in?

Two party political franchise system. Seriously, what would it take to stop people in Labour heartlands for voting from them? I keep using this phrase, critical mass, but that's where we're at now, the institutions at the top in politics and business have pulled the ladder up behind themselves and it would take a Herculean effort on anybodys part to beat or join them.

Banning political parties might be one way forward.

eight

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True. But who voted in the politicians and what did they promise in order to get voted in?

They probably didn't even discuss immigration as its a taboo subject in mainstream politics. Here are your options if you think immigration should be controlled.

Vote Labour or Liberal - obviously forget caring about immigration as it will happen in double quick time.

Vote Tory - they will slow it down maybe but won't risk saying they're anti-immigration in case they get accused of the big R word. So it still carries on albeit more slowly.

Vote Fascist - wasted vote anyway. And just because I'm not in agreement with lots of immigration it doen't mean I'm - I don't want to see them in power.

So really it doen't matter who you vote for on this issue. In answer to your question no decent party promises anything other than more of the same. I'll vote Tory - at least it slows things down a bit.

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If my grandfather could keep a couple of thoroughbred Africans in his garden shed, to do his bidding, on meagre rations, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to, today.

Like this? 2.25 in.

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I dunno.... I was watching NHK television channel today (that's the Japanese version of BBC (but without the licence). There was a news clip of 6-year-old school children north of Tokyo getting muddy in a paddy field and learning all about how the national staple food is grown.

What would that be like in England if England was as nationalistic as Japan? Well, in our parallel-universe TV item, the English kiddies would be in a potatoe field learning what it's like to dig up spuds. They would be able to look at a map of England and tell you which shire is associated with which variety of spud. In the background would be an 80-year-old gran who has been growing potatos since the war, and after the lesson she would tell the school children how growing potatos helped with the war effort. Back in the studio, there would be a quick lesson on potato-eating etiquette and then a pan across to the studio kitchen where an actor dressed up in a potato suit with an apron would show another group of children how to cook a simple dish using potatos.

And the BBC would have been presenting the same TV clip (with different kids each year) each year since TV broadcasting began. Plus, your Mum would all tell you (with a beam in her eye) about her potato field trip in 1951.

And that is just about potatos. You wait until they get on to the subject of the Royal Family in our alternative England....

My wife is Japanese and I've spent quite a bit of time over there. Your point is well made.

I think the BBC have a lot to answer for. From a gradual shift away from celebrating British traditions, to having a black 11th century Nun chastising a black 11th century Norman Nobleman in the colour blind 'Robin Hood' (oh and they preferred a Muslim companion for the outlaws in serious 2 before Friar Tuck was brought in at the start of series 3, yes he is black), to spending a small fortune on specifically catering to the UK Asian population. On the subject of colour-blind casting I'm looking forward to the day that the BBC complete their Shaka Zulu drama, with Brian Blessed as Shaka and the Male Choir of Swansea as the Zulus.

I could tell you what I think it means to be British but then, the BBC would have you believe that a woman living in Bradford who wears a burkha, doesn't speak English, knows nothing of British culture or tradition and has never had a conversation with an British person; is as English as me, as long as she has the passport.

The question that I've posed to numerous people over the last 10 years is 'what benefit does multiculturalism bring to the average people of the UK'? The answer usually has something to do with restaurant variety but stops there.

Enoch Powell was spot on, but the people of England are too scared to say so.

There's nothing wrong with immigration, as long as it is kept to a manageable level and does not have a negative effect on the indigenous population

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I think what you are saying is that our culture is not strong enough to 'impose itself' on immigrants. Maybe the PC brigade are to blame for this - they would have people believe that you should be ashamed to feel English for God's sake!

Consider;

When Brits go to live in France how many truly adopt a French way of life?

When Brits go to live in Spain how many truly adopt a Spanish way of life?

When Brits go to live in Asia how many truly adopt an Asian way of life?

Some certainly adopt a new way of life, I would contend that the majority retain their British way of life.

That might mean these people are really proud to be English, in which case it seems there is a strong English culture.

Equally it could mean that its perfectly normal for any people who go to another country to retain their old lifestyle, in which case why complain when the same occurs when people come here?

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Guest DisposableHeroes
You can always be relied upon to lower the tone. :rolleyes:

Sorry, main topic (naughty)!

Within the rural area where I live there has been a real increase in council land being turned to allotments. Many people of all ages spending part of their weekends there, it's good to see. There are restoration developments in progress of historic significance and a thriving farmers market. I love walking or cycling around the area observing the scenery and wildlife.

With regards culture, European countries are lucky in term of historic architecture, giving area's character. Within the UK there are fantastic villages, town and cities.

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