bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 If the State does collapse under the weight of excessive benefits & welfare & such.... ...won't that vindicate the Anarcho-Socialist strategies of pushing reform to the limit in an attempt to cause the State to collapse? "...a sensible revolutionary will try to push reform to the limits......on strategic grounds...you have to show that the system, if it's true....I mean if the system will collapse due to reform, okay, then that's fine, but if it won't, you have to reach the point where it resists & there's nothing left but to take things over, maybe by force. That's basically self-defense, but unless people recognize coercion as a form of self-defense they are not going to take part in it, at least they shouldn't. ...If you get to a point where the existing institutions simply will not bend to the popular will, then you've got to eliminate the institutions." - Prof. Chomsky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CokeSnortingTory Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 The inevitable vacuum-filling by an autocratic strongman will confirm Oswald Spengler's assertion that democracy is simply a temporary phase toward the arrival of The Caesar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 The inevitable vacuum-filling by an autocratic strongman will confirm Oswald Spengler's assertion that democracy is simply a temporary phase toward the arrival of The Caesar. You obviously don't understand Anarcho-Socialism & how it differs to pure Anarchism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CokeSnortingTory Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 You obviously don't understand Anarcho-Socialism & how it differs to pure Anarchism. And you obviously don't understand the repeated patterns that underlie the growth and decline of civilisations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punter Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Cameron will have to do a good job of eliminating a lot of institutions as the nation is bankrupt and can't afford them look for all sorts of quango's to just close down over night, the Commission for Racial Equality, OFCOM etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 And you obviously don't understand the repeated patterns that underlie the growth and decline of civilisations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West Please explain where the power vacuum would lie in an Anarcho-Socialist society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CokeSnortingTory Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Please explain where the power vacuum would lie in an Anarcho-Socialist society. It wouldn't have to even lie in the society. The only functioning Anarcho-socialist society that I can think of ever existing was quickly replaced by a Mr. F. Franco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 It wouldn't have to even lie in the society.The only functioning Anarcho-socialist society that I can think of ever existing was quickly replaced by a Mr. F. Franco. Yes, because it was in Spain & relatively unable to defend itself against the attacking fascists on one side & the attacking Communists on the other. I'm not so sure an anarcho-socialist revolution in America, say, would be quite so defenseless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trampa501 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 If the State does collapse under the weight of excessive benefits & welfare &such.... ...expect to see a lot of gangs carrying out kidnappings for monetary gain. Until those fortunates still in well-paid work decide to move to safer shores. It's an extreme scenario (the State collapsing) and let's hope it doesn't come to pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 ...expect to see a lot of gangs carrying out kidnappings for monetary gain. Until those fortunates still in well-paid work decide to move to safer shores. It's an extreme scenario (the State collapsing) and let's hope it doesn't come to pass. Please educate yourself on Anarcho-Socialism & how it differs from total anarchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CokeSnortingTory Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Yes, because it was in Spain & relatively unable to defend itself against the attacking fascists on one side & the attacking Communists on the other.I'm not so sure an anarcho-socialist revolution in America, say, would be quite so defenseless. Well I think the problem with an anarcho-socialist state will always be possible disruption from VI's within, and possible disruption from VI's without (and both these disruptive elements will no doubt collaborate). It seems to be a form of governance that always requires a high degree of mutual trust. I personally think we're more likely to see a return of autocrats. That said, who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackalope Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Yes, because it was in Spain & relatively unable to defend itself against the attacking fascists on one side & the attacking Communists on the other.I'm not so sure an anarcho-socialist revolution in America, say, would be quite so defenseless. A civilisation of super advanced robot centaurs wouldn't be defenseless either but that's about as likely as your anarcho-socialism. If the state did collapse (in say the US for sake of argument) then they would be far more likely to lapse into territorial feudalism than happy clappy anarcho socialism. inb4: learn the difference between anarchy and anarcho-socialism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Heap Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 And you obviously don't understand the repeated patterns that underlie the growth and decline of civilisations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West I happen to be half way through the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbon at the moment. It is surprising how quickly a large organised state can disintegrate. It is also very interesting that the people at the top don't necessarily act in the state's best interest. For instance, the local militia in Spain were quite capable of resisting the barbarians. The central government quite deliberately prevented them from doing so again once they had demonstrated that they could. An armed population was more of a threat than the barbarians were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deckard Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Great, a proper TFH thread We didn't have those for a while for some reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichB Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I happen to be half way through the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbon at the moment. It is surprising how quickly a large organised state can disintegrate. It is also very interesting that the people at the top don't necessarily act in the state's best interest. For instance, the local militia in Spain were quite capable of resisting the barbarians. The central government quite deliberately prevented them from doing so again once they had demonstrated that they could. An armed population was more of a threat than the barbarians were. Have a go at Management and Machiavelli by antony jay - one of the writers on Yes Minister. Puts a lot of that into context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Pint Princess 2 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 The anarcho-socialists must be happy the government has bought the banks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) A civilisation of super advanced robot centaurs wouldn't be defenseless either but that's about as likely as your anarcho-socialism. Just as the end of chattel slavery once seemed unlikely, so do many modern day injustices. However unlikely the move from economic slavery, bourgeois dictat & the ownership of production in the hands of the few to economic freedom, real democracy & ownership of the means of production in the hands of the people is, it's still a just cause worth fighting for. If the state did collapse (in say the US for sake of argument) then they would be far more likely to lapse into territorial feudalism than happy clappy anarcho socialism. That's most definitely true under present circumstances & that's what makes Chomsky's comments that to gain popular support for some type of anarcho-socialism you need the will of the people on your side, partly by showing them that there are limits to social reform, so valid. You did watch the video didn't you? Edited September 2, 2009 by bearORbullENIGMA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UK Debt Slave Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Cameron will have to do a good job of eliminating a lot of institutions as the nation is bankrupt and can't afford themlook for all sorts of quango's to just close down over night, the Commission for Racial Equality, OFCOM etc It's a no win situation for everyone If he goes all 'fiscally conservative', the resulting austerity will wipe out the middle class and cause all manner of social breakdown and chaos If he goes for the NuFascist Lite route, the country will go bust......wiping out the middle class......... causing all manner of social breakdown and chaos Caught between a rock and a hard place aren't we? Personally, I think a conservative government being elected next year is an irrelevence. The EU runs this country now. We don't have independent, sovereign rule or an independent sovereign system of law. The sell off of the UK is all but complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 The anarcho-socialists must be happy the government has bought the banks. Why would they be happy that the banks have been bought at their most unprofitable stage & will probably be privatized once they have been made profitable again? Why would they be happy with the socialization of cost & the privatization of profit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Heap Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Have a go at Management and Machiavelli by antony jay - one of the writers on Yes Minister. Puts a lot of that into context. Thanks, that looks interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Well I think the problem with an anarcho-socialist state will always be possible disruption from VI's within, and possible disruption from VI's without (and both these disruptive elements will no doubt collaborate). It seems to be a form of governance that always requires a high degree of mutual trust.I personally think we're more likely to see a return of autocrats. That said, who knows? There is a possibility of relapse in any system. People need to stay aware & guarded. That's actually more possible in a decentralized system of participatory politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackalope Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 That's most definitely true under present circumstances & that's what makes Chomsky's comments that to gain popular support for some type of anarcho-socialism you need the will of the people on your side, partly by showing them that there are limits to social reform. Right. So it's a can't-get-there-from-here solution for redeeming the sins of mankind. I'll file it right next to Scientology and Cosplay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Right. So it's a can't-get-there-from-here solution for redeeming the sins of mankind. I'll file it right next to Scientology and Cosplay. So you'd rather the movement attempted to seize power without popular consent & implement an autocratic rule? If the people don't want anarcho-socialism it won't happen. Can't be more sensible & fairer than that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackalope Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 If the people don't want anarcho-socialism it won't happen. Can't be more sensible& fairer than that! The fact that it hasn't happened indicates they clearly don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearORbullENIGMA Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 The fact that it hasn't happened indicates they clearly don't. Most people don't even know what it fully entails. As evidence by most of the comments on this thread, thinking it's full on anarchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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