The Masked Tulip Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Do they still have that rubbish Prince in the PS - you know, that process that is designed to create endless meetings, extend the project by years and ensure that everything takes longer, costs more and allows PS workers to attend meeting after meeting after meeting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest absolutezero Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 These "consultancies" are really an extension of the public sector so whether they're private sector wealth producers is a moot point. No it isn't. It's just inconvenient to your argument to say otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Public sector gloating. Tosser :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest absolutezero Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Tosser :angry: Upsetting, isn't it, when the penny drops and you realise the world isn't the black and white place you think it is? Happens to most people when they're about 14... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eek Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Do they still have that rubbish Prince in the PS - you know, that process that is designed to create endless meetings, extend the project by years and ensure that everything takes longer, costs more and allows PS workers to attend meeting after meeting after meeting? Yes and you forget to mention the paperwork designed to ensure that between the meetings and the documentation no work can be done in a 40 hour week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Allegro Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Cannot see anything wrong. The squaddies are the doers in this example. There are probably many people in the ministry of defence who are however not doers. I would imagine for every squaddie on the ground in Helmand (and I have nothing but admiration for them), there are a lot more of the 'Frightened 15' types in the forces, worried about losing their Ipods, or 55 year olds in the R(Aux)AF directing traffic in Northolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I would imagine for every squaddie on the ground in Helmand (and I have nothing but admiration for them), there are a lot more of the 'Frightened 15' types in the forces, worried about losing their Ipods, or 55 year olds in the R(Aux)AF directing traffic in Northolt. I think those guys get found out pretty quickly once the shooting starts and are out of the forces PDQ. What strikes me is that there are more people working for the MOD than there are for the actual forces combined. Just what on earth can they do all day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim B. Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Having dealt with IT contractors in the public sector my opinion is they are mostly a complete waste of public money. You can get the job done far cheaper if you just employed people to do the work, rather than pay some consultant hundreds of pounds a day to do the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Pint Princess 2 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Having dealt with IT contractors in the public sector my opinion is they are mostly a complete waste of public money. You can get the job done far cheaper if you just employed people to do the work, rather than pay some consultant hundreds of pounds a day to do the same thing. Consultants you can get rid of, without a pension or redundancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godley Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Err...not quite Look at the success that privatising the railways has been.... The agency problem in the private sector is smaller because the focus point (dividends) is easier to measure, but for public services, the providers profit isnt the measure of performance - its the cost and quality of the service I dont care how much money the train company is making, i want the tickets to cheap, the trains to run on time and to be able to sit in a clean carriage (to use an example that anyone can relate to) Erm yes, by definition in order to make a profit you have to offer what your client/customer wants or thinks they want. Your train example being a exemplary example, if you do not offer what the customer wants you do not have any customers thus you do not make any profits and therefore are not able to pay dividends. The ethos behind privatising the trains was not incorrect but's its implementation was, I think you will find it was rushed through by the previous Tory administration in a desparate attempt to complete the exercise before Labour took power, further it is only the network that is now in public ownership, the improvements and thus service is provided by the train companies which remain in private ownership. You may not care how much money the train company is making but what value you place on the service, may not be the value I put on the service. Therefore why should I not have a choice? Why should I put up with mediocrity? Why should I be forced to pay for things I do not want nor support? Why should you get what you want, but I am not able to get what I want? That my friend is the failure of public services, expensive and mediocre. It can only ever achieve mediocrity because it is a service accesible by everybody, thus it can only ever be 'average'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim B. Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Consultants you can get rid of, without a pension or redundancy. Fixed period contracts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godley Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Then the private sector apologists wipe all hypocrisy away with "human nature".I love it. Priceless! Capitilism is merely a reflection of human nature. I make no apolgies for pointing this out. Do you disagree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godley Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Upsetting, isn't it, when the penny drops and you realise the world isn't the black and white place you think it is?Happens to most people when they're about 14... The penny has dropped just not with you yet. Once Labour are out of power the taps will be turned off, 'upsetting' to think about the consequences don't you think? That's why is better to live in denial, I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potwalloper Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Oh look.PRIVATE sector 'wealth producers' really need the PUBLIC sector in order to exist. Who would have thunk it...? This is going to upset a lot of the "public sector bad, private sector good" black-and-white thinkers on here.... You're somewhat single bit monochrome yourself. My Doctors' surgery is very efficient and they have a culture which is friendly and kind. They do rather buck the trend though. There. Better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverland Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Erm yes, by definition in order to make a profit you have to offer what your client/customer wants or thinks they want. Your train example being a exemplary example, if you do not offer what the customer wants you do not have any customers thus you do not make any profits and therefore are not able to pay dividends.The ethos behind privatising the trains was not incorrect but's its implementation was, I think you will find it was rushed through by the previous Tory administration in a desparate attempt to complete the exercise before Labour took power, further it is only the network that is now in public ownership, the improvements and thus service is provided by the train companies which remain in private ownership. You may not care how much money the train company is making but what value you place on the service, may not be the value I put on the service. Therefore why should I not have a choice? Why should I put up with mediocrity? Why should I be forced to pay for things I do not want nor support? Why should you get what you want, but I am not able to get what I want? That my friend is the failure of public services, expensive and mediocre. It can only ever achieve mediocrity because it is a service accesible by everybody, thus it can only ever be 'average'. I'm gonna ignore the ideological rant on the merits of free markets in the last para and agree with you that all forms of regulation or deregulation need to be carefully thought through Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverland Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 The penny has dropped just not with you yet.Once Labour are out of power the taps will be turned off, 'upsetting' to think about the consequences don't you think? That's why is better to live in denial, I understand. If Labour remain in power (unlikely) the taps would be turned off also The resevoir that fills the water tank is draining too fast and we are dredging the mud from the bottom over the next few years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eek Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Having dealt with IT contractors in the public sector my opinion is they are mostly a complete waste of public money. You can get the job done far cheaper if you just employed people to do the work, rather than pay some consultant hundreds of pounds a day to do the same thing. Contractors are not the problem here. Its the Cap Gemini and other large consultancies that are the problem in the IT industry whose aim is to get a foothold into the authority and shoehorn as many others as possible into there for as long as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godley Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Oh look.PRIVATE sector 'wealth producers' really need the PUBLIC sector in order to exist. Who would have thunk it...? This is going to upset a lot of the "public sector bad, private sector good" black-and-white thinkers on here.... You just can't join the dots up can you? It really does (and this is said with sincerity) concern me that as a teacher you do not have a basic concept of economics. Governments merely re-distribute wealth created out of private equity I am not going to convince you on here so please take some time to do your own background reading. By doing your own research you will begin to understand the inter-dependence and perhaps will provoke some different thinking on your part. But if you do not promise to stick to science in the classroom, a lot of your 'products' have to under go some re-educating when they enter industry so just try and make it a little easier for us guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godley Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 If Labour remain in power (unlikely) the taps would be turned off alsoThe resevoir that fills the water tank is draining too fast and we are dredging the mud from the bottom over the next few years... Yes, but I fear if Labour did win then it's IMF.............. It's why a lot of this debate over public versus private is moot tbh, the public sector is going to face cutbacks to staff numbers, terms and conditions and capital projects whether it likes it or not. Really the debate is whether the public sector can be convinced as to why the cutbacks are necessary and therefore can come in from la la land resigned to it's fait or whether it's going to come in kicking and screaming, unfortunatley I see the latter being the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudge Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 A great deal of the money that goes into public services ends up going to private companies and then some of its taxed and round and round it goes. I remember as a kid watching a documentry that followed the life cycle of a 5 pound note. Its amazing. Its a money go round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest absolutezero Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 The penny has dropped just not with you yet.Once Labour are out of power the taps will be turned off, 'upsetting' to think about the consequences don't you think? That's why is better to live in denial, I understand. The penny dropped years ago, however, with me being frontline and several years service there are other people to get rid of before me. In fact, they'd have to get rid of half of my department before they get rid of me. Last in, first out based on curriculum need. I have no problem with the consequences because I agree the public sector has become too bloated. Some of it is private sector contractors. You private sector adherents lot on the other hand scream the private sector "creates wealth" when really a lot of you are public sector parasites in non-jobs in disguise. Be interesting to see what happens to a lot of you when the budgets are cut. Claim "human nature" all you like. It's just a convenient get out clause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Dramatic public sector cuts are inevitable. The only uncertainty is what lies, spin and manipulation the government will use to cover them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest absolutezero Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 You just can't join the dots up can you? It really does (and this is said with sincerity) concern me that as a teacher you do not have a basic concept of economics.Governments merely re-distribute wealth created out of private equity I am not going to convince you on here so please take some time to do your own background reading. By doing your own research you will begin to understand the inter-dependence and perhaps will provoke some different thinking on your part. But if you do not promise to stick to science in the classroom, a lot of your 'products' have to under go some re-educating when they enter industry so just try and make it a little easier for us guys. You're the one who can't join the dots. A lot of your private sector "wealth producers" are nothing but public sector workers in disguise. Who do you think will get the chop? Contractors and tenderers with no employment rights, or permanent staff with redundancy etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I dont care how much money the train company is making, i want the tickets to cheap, the trains to run on time and to be able to sit in a clean carriage (to use an example that anyone can relate to) same with a loaf of bread - nationalised bakeries anyone - like they used to have in Russia, with queues round the block? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Oh look.PRIVATE sector 'wealth producers' really need the PUBLIC sector in order to exist. Who would have thunk it...? This is going to upset a lot of the "public sector bad, private sector good" black-and-white thinkers on here.... absolute zero - no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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