It Contractor? Out Of Work? Wages Depressed?

[slurms mackenzie]

Isn't .NET doing 'relatively' (bar India/outsourcing/economy) well compared to other dev skills? I know it's the only dev skill we recruited in earlier this year and at the time we were struggling to find good people.

Relatively being the operative word, going off other friends anecdotes if i lost my job i'm looking at a good three months to find another (this is in manchester, not as many jobs), last time i got made redundent i'd got a job within days.

Edited August 26, 2009 by slurms mackenzie

[wickywackywoo]

Hang on, I say what I see, today it was a joke, tomorrow? These people are not racist, just simplistic, why on the heaven hell on eartjhy delights of sherry have you not seen that?

Why don't you just directly say what you mean please instead of beating around the bush?

[wickywackywoo]

This double-confirms Manchesters good anecdote. Have you ever considered a more management focused role Wicky and if not why not?

I'm planning on moving more into this area for all the reasons I've mentioned on this thread. Not something I really want to do as I would prefer to stay highly technical. However, I'm not going to have a choice eventually.

Fail to see how every IT person in the country can move into management though. Are we going to become a nation of managers? What happens if the Indians stop coming or become expensive (pound crash)? Seems remarkably stupid for Government policy to encourage it's workforce to deskill in favour of foreigners.

[wickywackywoo]

Isn't .NET doing 'relatively' (bar India/outsourcing/economy) well compared to other dev skills? I know it's the only dev skill we recruited in earlier this year and at the time we were struggling to find good people.

If you were struggling to find good .NET people earlier this year it's because you were paying Indian wages.

[wickywackywoo]

Not having a pop WWW, but why haven't you retired? Most of the people in my era knew it was only a short term cash grab. We even had a little song. (Thanks to the Sex Pistols)

People said we couldn't program,

They called us geeky snobs,

But the only digits that really count,

Are the ones on our timesheets,

Permies screamed, the air turned blue,

When they saw our rates,

Filthy lucre ain't nothing new,

But we all get cash from chaos!

The time is right to do it now,

The greatest contractor swindle,

The time is right to do it now.

R&R if there are any here who remember!

I wish I was. Made the mistake of having three children who cost me an arm and a leg on a regular basis.

Edited August 26, 2009 by wickywackywoo

[Tonkers]

Why don't you just directly say what you mean please instead of beating around the bush?

Well, I am not going to get robbed, because I have nothing. I am also, officially, a ******* mongrel, from care homes! So, I'm safe, are you?

[piece of paper]

It worked for the country. Don't be silly please.

Under the last Government there was no general public awareness that there was an immigration issue. It's not just IT people, many people right across the board are p1ssed off at current levels. A return to a sensible immigration policy would benefit may British people.

You might want to check that with Caribbean Beauty.

I disagree with current immigration policy for different reasons but, were all Indians to be excluded tomorrow, it would make no difference to your plight. They would be replaced by Romanians and Bulgarians. Not as cheap but still much cheaper than you. Further, they would all have to be 'contractors' but there would be no limit on their numbers at all.

p-o-p

[manchester50]

If you were struggling to find good .NET people earlier this year it's because you were paying Indian wages.

No , these were permie roles and would have been paying 30-45k I guess. Not top contractor wages but hardly peanuts. To be honest I don't know why they were struggling to find people as it's not my area of the business, but they were clearly having difficulty finding the right people as the rest of us were being offered bonuses for recomendations which resulted in employment.

[wickywackywoo]

Well, I am not going to get robbed, because I have nothing. I am also, officially, a ******* mongrel, from care homes! So, I'm safe, are you?

Are you Injin in disguise or something?

[wickywackywoo]

You might want to check that with Caribbean Beauty.

I disagree with current immigration policy for different reasons but, were all Indians to be excluded tomorrow, it would make no difference to your plight. They would be replaced by Romanians and Bulgarians. Not as cheap but still much cheaper than you. Further, they would all have to be 'contractors' but there would be no limit on their numbers at all.

p-o-p

No, they wouldn't. Those two countries are not capable of exporting anything like the numbers of IT people that India can.

[wickywackywoo]

Question for you then - who takes responsibility for Data Management on the projects you work on? IT/ Business or a hybrid group?

Is quality of information ever included as a key metric in systems developments?

Varies every place I go to. Sometimes there is a clearly defined Data Owner within the business. Sometimes it's the responsibility of a DBA. Sometimes nobody IT or Business takes responsibility.

[impatient_mug]

No, they wouldn't. Those two countries are not capable of exporting anything like the numbers of IT people that India can.

So, India exports IT workers, and the UK buys them because it's cheaper than producing our own. It's a bit of luck we don't export much any more otherwise we could find other countries retaliate by blocking our exports.

Edited August 26, 2009 by impatient_mug

[Trampa501]

I see computer and internet fraud soaring over the coming months with frustrated and unemployed IT folk having a lot of time on their hands. Many IT workers know the weak spots, and how flimsy many security measures are in place (my last contract was with a company that didn't even encrypt passwords for the users of their web forum system). Maybe the two growth industries in IT will be hacking and counter-hacking activities.

[piece of paper]

No, they wouldn't. Those two countries are not capable of exporting anything like the numbers of IT people that India can.

I should think that they could conjure up 30,000 without too much difficulty. Poles and Hungarians could make up any shortfall.

I know and like a number of contractors but it is all over. Greed priced the trade out of the market.

p-o-p

[Trampa501]

I should think that they could conjure up 30,000 without too much difficulty. Poles and Hungarians could make up any shortfall.

I know and like a number of contractors but it is all over. Greed priced the trade out of the market.

p-o-p

Rumania is (surprisingly?) a big player in the outsourcing game.

[wickywackywoo]

So, India exports IT workers, and the UK buys them because it's cheaper than producing our own. It's a bit of luck we don't export much any more otherwise we could find other countries retaliate by blocking our exports.

Sigh

It's all about numbers. When are people going to understand that? Supplementing your workforce where there is a genuine requirement for it is fine (old system). Systematically destroying your own work force in favour of another countries workers is not fine (new system).

Edited August 26, 2009 by wickywackywoo

[piece of paper]

Rumania is (surprisingly?) a big player in the outsourcing game.

Not that surprising. Competitive national maths and computing competitions from the age of 11 or so.

p-o-p

[dohrayme]

You might want to check that with Caribbean Beauty.

I disagree with current immigration policy for different reasons but, were all Indians to be excluded tomorrow, it would make no difference to your plight. They would be replaced by Romanians and Bulgarians. Not as cheap but still much cheaper than you. Further, they would all have to be 'contractors' but there would be no limit on their numbers at all.

p-o-p

Why would that be, it's not all about cost is it? I thought you claimed in your earlier post it wasn't.

[PSmith]

You might want to check that with Caribbean Beauty.

I disagree with current immigration policy for different reasons but, were all Indians to be excluded tomorrow, it would make no difference to your plight. They would be replaced by Romanians and Bulgarians. Not as cheap but still much cheaper than you. Further, they would all have to be 'contractors' but there would be no limit on their numbers at all.

p-o-p

Romainians and Bulgarians don't have English language as there main language. Also, there aren't a billion of them like there are Indians. Once enough Indians have been attracted to IT their salary will be squeezed too. We think we live in a democracy where the government will do what the majority of the people want them to do. We really live in a country ruled by industry. All we can do is a look at two or three very similar parties, read their manifesto and somehow decide to put a tick in one box once every five years. Industry has lobbyists paid for by industry with entertainment expenses their full time job is to get their way with the government. That's why we have massive on-shoring and offshoring, it's what industry wants.

[piece of paper]

Why would that be, it's not all about cost is it? I thought you claimed in your earlier post it wasn't.

Cost isn't everything. I charge more that most of my competitors.

The labour cost that I referred to was due to WWW grumbling about being undercut.

My view is that he will have to gain his advantage by something other than cost and cannot rely on protection.

p-o-p

[piece of paper]

Romainians and Bulgarians don't have English language as there main language. Also, there aren't a billion of them like there are Indians. Once enough Indians have been attracted to IT their salary will be squeezed too. We think we live in a democracy where the government will do what the majority of the people want them to do. We really live in a country ruled by industry. All we can do is a look at two or three very similar parties, read their manifesto and somehow decide to put a tick in one box once every five years. Industry has lobbyists paid for by industry with entertainment expenses their full time job is to get their way with the government. That's why we have massive on-shoring and offshoring, it's what industry wants.

Neither do nost Indians. The Romanian IT people that I have had dealings with don't seem to have any difficulty with English.

p-o-p

[BullysSpecialPrize]

I always find that I see both sides of this argument unfortunately. I work in IT, fingers crossed doing ok (permanent not contract) and have had close involvement with setting up an offshore office (i didnt sign the deal, just implementing it, before i get flamed).

I can see all of the negative points mentioned - im no Enoch Powell, but from an economic standpoint immigration has been used to artificially depress wages in this country for years. The thing is, while im white collar, all my blue collar friends like truck drivers have been getting hammered with this for years and no one gave a f*ck, just like no one gave a f*ck about the miners before them. IT contractors have a well earned reputation for being the most individualistic, Thatcherist, no-society, BTL buying c*nts that you have ever had the displeasure to meet. So seeing them getting rightly screwed over by the free market ethos they otherwise love so much and begging for government protection sort of makes me laugh.

So dunno the point of this post - yeah, we're getting screwed, but everyone else has been screwed and now its the middle classes turn. Wait till the lawyer / project manager / consultant offshoring starts in earnest...

[wickywackywoo]

If you ask me, that's the problem and the solution.

It's why most major developments fail and it's a niche area that requires strong business understanding and good technical skills.

Leave the development to the code-monkeys, if you want to stay technical specialise in data or data architecture.

Only my suggestion.

I don't share your experience. I have rarely come across companies where data quality has been an issue at all, with one or two exceptions, a small company with very old systems and the users not using them correctly and a public sector organisation.

[PSmith]

Neither do nost Indians. The Romanian IT people that I have had dealings with don't seem to have any difficulty with English.

p-o-p

Nearly all Indians in Mumbai speak English. There are loads of different Indian languages and what you know will depend on where you come from and what religion you are. The only common language in India is English. At least they now have something to thank us for from something that came from the British Empire.

[wickywackywoo]

I always find that I see both sides of this argument unfortunately. I work in IT, fingers crossed doing ok (permanent not contract) and have had close involvement with setting up an offshore office (i didnt sign the deal, just implementing it, before i get flamed).

I can see all of the negative points mentioned - im no Enoch Powell, but from an economic standpoint immigration has been used to artificially depress wages in this country for years. The thing is, while im white collar, all my blue collar friends like truck drivers have been getting hammered with this for years and no one gave a f*ck, just like no one gave a f*ck about the miners before them. IT contractors have a well earned reputation for being the most individualistic, Thatcherist, no-society, BTL buying c*nts that you have ever had the displeasure to meet. So seeing them getting rightly screwed over by the free market ethos they otherwise love so much and begging for government protection sort of makes me laugh.

So dunno the point of this post - yeah, we're getting screwed, but everyone else has been screwed and now its the middle classes turn. Wait till the lawyer / project manager / consultant offshoring starts in earnest...

I don't have any BTLs

I'm personally looking forward to things escalating bigtime until everybodies job is being offshored or they're saying hello to some foreigner just arrived to take over. The cacophony will be deafening and I will be much amused.

For the record, I've always felt just as sorry for blue collor workers getting screwed as well. Also not all contractors are as you describe. Some, like myself, simply went freelance so I could stay technical without being pressured into management and to avoid politics and climbing some cr@ppy greasy pole.