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It Contractor? Out Of Work? Wages Depressed?

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What's your point please?

A pastiche of the racisim of the late 70's early 80's? That it is all a pastiche by very, very ignorant people.

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Good luck with all of that, on the way home thru Camden tonight I saw a black bloke being beaten up by 3 people who thought they were skinheads.

that must be a classic case of man bites dog :lol: Its a wonder its not all over the front page of the Guardian.

(I suppose the "skinheads" ran off when you dashed over to help the poor chap (or did you just mutter to yourself and keep walking?) )

Edited by UncleKev

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You're preumptuous. My partner lost her job as an IT permie due to increased Indian 'on-shoring' and she can see the business reality of the situation without feeling bitter, modified her target roles to take the situation into account and found a new job. We have had very immediate experience of the financial impact.

Taking a step back, which do you think will have a more positive outcome - stamping feet at the way the industry has changed, or looking forward and trying to plan skill/role changes to move away from those roles at greatest risk?

The most practical post here. Some things just can't be changed and all the crying and petitions in the world won't be worth a hill of beans when a foreign worker ends up doing your job for one third of your pay. I have asked this before on the numerous threads that get posted on this topic but it is rarely answered, it was touched upon here earlier I think: "Are there any IT roles, which are somewhat protected from the outsourcing model". My friend, for instance, is a Software Test Manager and he has absolutely no trouble finding contracts and he actively employs Indians. Is this because Indians et al are "yes men", technicaly competent but useless man-management skills? Does anyone have any real life anecdotes?

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The UK IT industry is truly screwed. Paying for years of unprofessionalism and lack of leadership - the last 10 years has been one large Wild-West show.

Starting with the Y2K "have a go Joes" - all shiny shoes, cheap suits, bullsh*tters and liers the lot of them, and about as many computer skills/qualifications as my cat - all managed to hang around until 31st December 1999 before closing the business and moving off to the next big-thing (estate agents probably).

Then we have the huge public sector failures. I know people who've worked for blue chip consultancys sit on site taking a few hours to do the work, then being told to sit there for the next 4 weeks doing sweet FA, just so the customer (taxpayer) can be billed for 4 weeks work.

Then the government pulls this trick.

No wonder kids at school/university aren't interested.

IT was a viable choice for clever working-class kids 20 years ago, those who didn't have the "connections" to be bankers, accountants or lawyers. A good chance to do a professional job in a new industry.

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I don't think I can halt the tide of glabalisation, I just don't see why globalisation means we have to have 30,000 Indians per year flying into the country to take native jobs. The two do not have to go hand in hand.

Anyway, if things carry on as they are then it will eventually affect almost everybody, including all the people so much in favour of other people losing their jobs at the moment. You might all be a little less apathetic and Blasé about it then.

Personally, for me, I'm happy to claim benefits and live a simple life. I feel no guilt over that whatsoever, given the current situation, whereas I would have done ten years ago.

Protectionism doesn't work.

I use a newsagent next to Tesco. He is more expensive than Tesco and doesn't compete on range. I still shop with him because her offers speed and now knows what I want.

If you are going to compete, you are going to have to come up with something better than cost.

p-o-p

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The mcuh larger security risk is employing a contractor. if they nick sensitibe IPR and offer it for sale what comeback does the company have, none. At least they can sue a managed service provider and have legal recourse.

That's just silly. Apart from anything else, a British contractor is subject to simple copyright law, and the courts take IPR theft very seriously (easier that catching proper criminals etc.). Try sueing a Chinese or Indian contractor who nicks your idea and duplicates it 6000 miles away. If I had a software co with a shedload of valuable code, the last place I'd want it to go is India or China. [i await the door being kicked in by the authorities for expressing unapproved thoughts].

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that must be a classic case of man bites dog :lol: Its a wonder its not all over the front page of the Guardian.

(I suppose the "skinheads" ran off when you dashed over to help the poor chap (or did you just mutter to yourself and keep walking?) )

Driving past in car, just an observation, also something I have not seen in 15 years, a black man being chased down the street. On a 'what I'd do' note? get stuck in.

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Protectionism doesn't work.

I use a newsagent next to Tesco. He is more expensive than Tesco and doesn't compete on range. I still shop with him because her offers speed and now knows what I want.

If you are going to compete, you are going to have to come up with something better than cost.

p-o-p

p-o-p, you seem very confused - your contradicting yourself.

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I prefer to remain anonymous on the Internet. Lots of unemployed contractors on here could spend all day long starting DoS attacks. ;)

Whats wrong? I'm sure you outsourced your network security to the best you can find - what could possibly go wrong ;-)

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IT is going the way of mining, call centres and manufacturing - elsewhere. Get used to it - and I say that as someone who works in IT.

I'm not going to be hypocritical by buying import electronics made in factories that poison their workforce with the toxic chemicals, wear clothes probably made by kids in sweat shops and go on holiday to far flung lands taking advantage of local poverty yet then complain when they decide to under cut me. I don't look around for the most expensive way to buy an item - I can't see why employers should.

I will have to find something else to do otherwise accept a significant drop in income. If enough people have to take this drop then the cost of living in the UK will fall.

Just like we can't run an economy selling ridiculously priced houses to each other, we can't run an economy selling ridiculously priced IT and business systems to each other. If we want to maintain anything like todays standard of living we have to actually compete and do something useful in exchange for all that oil, gas and food.

We have to start Doing the Needful ourselves or suffer an updation to our standard of life.

Edited by impatient_mug

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"Are there any IT roles, which are somewhat protected from the outsourcing model"....Does anyone have any real life anecdotes?

Bear in mind only my experience within a small number of companies...:

Roles we tend to use Indian resources for currently:

- programmers (C, COBOL, VB, database (e.g. PL*SQL) .NET, Java, package (Siebel, SAP, Oracle apps) config roles

- system testers

Roles which we currently don't use imported Indian workers for:

- project/programme management

- technical/enterprise architects

- functional/technical design authorities

- business analysts/UAT

- test management

- security (both working for security conscious clients, e.g. MoD and security technical skills/industry knowledge)

Ambiguous roles (mainly UK but some Indian):

- DBA

- data analyst

- integration testing

- test script development (Rational Robot, LoadRunner, QTP etc)

- ETL development

The management roles tend to be UK as those in charge of projects/programmes like to receive work-of-mouth recommendations - more likely to get these for local resources as people have known them for 5, 10,20 years.

Although it looks like I'm saying all our programmers are Indian this is not the case. Partly due to the difference in attitudes approaches (as per my previous post) we have a mix of UK/Indian resources. Generally as you'd expect the project/programme managers push for more UK resources whilst the senior business/sale managers push for more Indian to increase margin.

Also the 'pure-plays' (i.e. the Indian companies who work over here such as Tata) have many more roles Indian as you'd expect.

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Firstly, it is against the law to charge a fee to find somebody work.

IT agents don't charge up front fees to contractors, self employed or otherwise. Any fee is paid direct by the company hiring the contractor to the agent after the job's been started. It's a perfectly legal commission based business like any other.

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Well you've missed the boat by a long, long way. The European project was signed up to a long, long time ago and any EU citizen has a right to come and work here. To prevent this would be illegal.

If we don't have low-cost Indian programmers another Western economy will and how do we then compete with them?

The EU is not personally a problem for me, India is.

You say it would be illegal. Why? France and Germany did it.

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Whats wrong? I'm sure you outsourced your network security to the best you can find - what could possibly go wrong ;-)

We outsource nothing, Indians are no good at customer service.

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What would be the response on here if I said 'another shop down the road has opened selling everything better and cheaper, please sign my petition to have them closed down'.

Quite possibly sympathetic, if either:

1. they were out-competing you due to cheaper prices in their home country, prices that you couldn't access. For someone selling his labour, that's basically property prices. For retail, imagine that they have sole import rights from their home economy while you're constrained to source goods from your own high-cost economy (silly example but hey, it's your parallel I'm trying to sustain here ;) ).

2. your market was open while theirs was protected (not saying this is the case in IT; I have no idea if a UK IT person would be able to get a visa to work in India or wherever).

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Bear in mind only my experience within a small number of companies...:

Roles we tend to use Indian resources for currently:

- programmers (C, COBOL, VB, database (e.g. PL*SQL) .NET, Java, package (Siebel, SAP, Oracle apps) config roles

- system testers

Roles which we currently don't use imported Indian workers for:

- project/programme management

- technical/enterprise architects

- functional/technical design authorities

- business analysts/UAT

- test management

- se.......

Thanks for that Manchester, it helps to confirm what I thought.

Ambiguous roles (mainly UK but some Indian):

- DBA

- data analyst

- integration testing

- test script development (Rational Robot, LoadRunner, QTP etc)

- ETL development

Any idea why you think this is?

Edited by pl1

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A pastiche of the racisim of the late 70's early 80's? That it is all a pastiche by very, very ignorant people.

How do you know they were being racist, he might have stolen their cheese sandwich?

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A pastiche of the racisim of the late 70's early 80's? That it is all a pastiche by very, very ignorant people.

Wondered how long it would take for some idiot to bring up the 'R' word. Save yourself the bother, there's not need, it's not wanted or required.

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The EU is not personally a problem for me, India is.

You say it would be illegal. Why? France and Germany did it.

France and Germany have many fine engineers, software developers. In my experience they are very disciplined, work long hours to get jobs finished and pay great attention to quality.

It's always a pleasure to work with German software engineers simply because they are so dedicated and knowledgeable. Their insistence on quality is what sets them apart from the rest of the world.

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